Official Metaknight Discussion

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I reaaally shouldn't make analogies when I'm tired as hell. Especially when I heavily disagree with the analogy that was being referred to.

So should we cater to people who aren't good enough to play at a top level? Except in this case people who aren't good enough can decide to just avoid the game altogether.

I mean what's the point of competition? I mean isn't to find who the BEST is? And at a top level he isn't broken, so in competition should he be banned or not? It was SCSA (I can't remember which one).

SCSA 5 is tomorrow, ironically

What is the point of competition?

Before we proceed, let's take a detour for a second and define "top level of competition."

EDIT: Sorry for double post, I thought someone would've posted. My bad.

 

[theunabletable]

But the SBR is, or rather should be, concerned with people other than the top 4 players in the world.

The Super Bowl should have a focus on teams who couldn't make the playoffs.

Before we proceed, let's take a detour for a second and define "top level of competition."

ADHD right now

 

[Delvro]

The SBR isn't like the Super Bowl. It's more like Congress... for smash.

 

[theunabletable]

^Fine.

The people at the BCS national championship (the ones who decide the rankings... dunno what they're called) should have a focus on teams who can't finish the season with a winning record.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The Super Bowl should have a focus on teams who couldn't make the playoffs.

ADHD right now

All right. Great comparison. Now let me fix the Brawl version of that.

Brawl should concentrate on players who play at high levels.

What's the procentile of Football teams who make it to the playoffs? What's the procentile of Brawl players that successfully combat Metaknights at the same/similar level and/or at high levels of play?

According to that comparison, the super bowl should care about, maybe, the good arm of the quarterback who won the super bowl.

 

[Palpi]

So is everyone content with a bunch of metaknight and 2 people that can beat them?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The Super Bowl should have a focus on teams who couldn't make the playoffs.

The SBR is not the Super Bowl. Like Delvro said, they're more like congress. They govern the ENTIRE smash community. I don't see how that's hard to understand. And you said Kewkky's analogy was bad.

ADHD right now

That's what you think the top level of play is? That's ridiculous. If your scope is that narrow, then of course you think what you think.

Top level should not be one player.

 

[Overswarm]

You guys and your analogies are silly.

You want to compare it to sports? Sports leagues make rules all the time based off of single instances and they do so because their game is a spectator sport. That's how they make their money. Please don't compare smash to traditional sports.

That's what you think the top level of play is? That's ridiculous. If your scope is that narrow, then of course you think what you think.

Top level should not be one player.

Agreed. There's no reasoning with that narrow of a scope, especially since M2K already FIT that description for a period of time and people ignored that and said "it's just one guy". Now it's flipped around and there are three people winning tournaments and a multitude of MKs going ape****.

 

[Juushichi]

Sign of Madness... c'mon man.

Horrible example, bro. The Super Bowl isn't an organization. It is a (glorified) Bowl game. You're talking about two different things here. As for the NFL as a whole, which would be... you know closer to the SBR, you are aware that they... you know "care" about their players, right?

Even those lovable (terrible) Detroit Lions.

In terms of the NFL, the worst team gets a shot at the /best/ young player in that next year's draft (and usually first pick in subsequent rounds). What does that say?

 

[Palpi]

The leading football team with 3 time outs in the 4th quarter is like metaknight because they both can efficiently time you out lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The SBR is not the Super Bowl. Like Delvro said, they're more like congress. They govern the ENTIRE smash community. I don't see how that's hard to understand. And you said Kewkky's analogy was bad.



That's what you think the top level of play is? That's ridiculous. If your scope is that narrow, then of course you think what you think.

Top level should not be one player.

Top level IS one player; this is why it should not be the only thing we focus on.

So is everyone content with a bunch of metaknight and 2 people that can beat them?

Yep, pretty much.

 

[Kewkky]

I mean what's the point of competition? I mean isn't to find who the BEST is? And at a top level he isn't broken, so in competition should he be banned or not? It was SCSA (I can't remember which one).

*The point of competition is so the best man wins.

*The point of a game is to entertain the public.

*There is no competition if a large enough sum of people don't find it entertaining.


So, by my awesoem 1337 deduction skills I can figure out that:

*** The point of a competitive game is to entertain the public while making it so the best man wins. The game dies if people don't find it entertaining.


That's not so hard to understand, is it? AFAIK, a good amount of pro-ban thinks MK is detrimental to Brawl's lifespan for various reasons, me included.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Pro-ban: "Hey guys, Polio's been back for 2 years, and it's been getting worse! Almost everyone's getting it and dying, and whoever's left unaffected is leaving the country! We should find a cure before everyone's gone! Look at this graph and this data we collected from the hospitals with the most cases of Polio! NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT!"

Anti-ban: "So what? There were 2 survivors, every human has the ability to survive it. If you can't, then too bad for you."

Basically anti-ban is taking chances. Horrible strategy.

 

[theunabletable]

According to that comparison, the super bowl should care about, maybe, the good arm of the quarterback who won the super bowl.

The Super Bowl should only matter for the BEST.

The SBR is not the Super Bowl. Like Delvro said, they're more like congress. They govern the ENTIRE smash community. I don't see how that's hard to understand. And you said Kewkky's analogy was bad.

The people at the BCS national championship (the ones who decide the rankings... dunno what they're called) should have a focus on teams who can't finish the season with a winning record.

It doesn't make a **** but of difference, though. Why should we cater to the people who can't win/aren't willing to win regardless?

That's what you think the top level of play is? That's ridiculous. If your scope is that narrow, then of course you think what you think.

Right now he seems to be. I mean it's a toss-up between him, Ally, and M2K, but those three are definitely the top level of competition.

Top level should not be one player.

*cough*MangoinMelee*cough*

And why not?

People posted, lemme edit stuff in

In terms of the NFL, the worst team gets a shot at the /best/ young player in that next year's draft (and usually first pick in subsequent rounds). What does that say?

The worst player gets a shot at the best player in pools/brackets.

And, you're right, the BCS championship people (whoever it is that does the voting there for rankings) applies more.

They don't cater to bads.

*There is no competition if a large enough sum of people don't find it entertaining.

Subjective or not if you find it entertaining or not.

*** The point of a competitive game is to entertain the public while making it so the best man wins. The game dies if people don't find it entertaining.

A full 100% ban is not the answer. That's bad for the game, too. The only thing that is really detrimental to the game is his stalling, which can be dealt with with easily enforceable rules.

That's not so hard to understand, is it? AFAIK, a good amount of pro-ban thinks MK is detrimental to Brawl's lifespan for various reasons, me included.

I do agree that he's bad for the game, actually. And I am all for limiting him (as I've said before). A full ban is just unnecesary and worse.

 

[etecoon]

And how many of these people have beaten M2K on a consistent basis?

ADHD and ally only, I see no problem with this because they are the only ones on his level. that he's lost to players worse than him makes it pretty hard to argue that MK is a problem at the highest level.

Fiction and Azen? When was this?

I think I actually confused a single game for fictions win, I could've sworn he'd taken a set off him but I can't find anything to confirm that and I thought it was on youtube too and it's not...

azen was a long *** time ago and he's since quit the game, just given how long ago it was I'd admit that it doesn't have much relevance(MK's metagame is much much more advanced now)

edit: did find a reference for fiction

fiction beat m2k in losers finals yesterday

 

[Black Marf]

yeah because so many people win regional tournaments the moment they pick up mk.

For one, my region is dominated by an MK.

For two, I had a friend that I could 3 stock with remarkable consistency. He picked MK, and now he wins about 10% of the time. Coincidence?*

See? I can pick 2 people's achievements to support my side as well.

*And by pickup I mean literally played the guy for 5 minutes. And no, I don't get my *** beaten by nado spam and dsmash. **** that range and **** that gimping power.

Yeppers. Social Darwinism. :V

To be fair, competition is supposed to be Darwinistic. The problem many people seem to be having with this is that it's also expected to be fair.

 

[Juushichi]

The Super Bowl should only matter for the BEST. The people at the BCS national championship (the ones who decide the rankings... dunno what they're called) should have a focus on teams who can't finish the season with a winning record.

Ouch man... another bad choice.

The BCS is proven to be a bad system, for similar reasons, and is going to be replaced by whatever system when it's contract runs out.

Looks like you're 0/2 today.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The Super Bowl should only matter for the BEST.

Yes, but in that case it's best out of like, what, 50-60? Less? So, about 2% of the entire brawl community would be, by comparison, "the BEST", and we would have a different person being the single best player in the game every year (or at least every few years, it would change, **** yeah patriots winning 3 in a row (IIRC) ).

 

[Overswarm]

I know nothing of football and cannot contribute.

 

[Flayl]

A lot of people are amking an assumption here that the only people that can beat top level MK's are ADHD and Ally...

Unless top level MK's = only M2K, that's not true.

It would help your case to find the records for the other notable MK's, including Tyrant, Dojo, Shadow, Ksizzle, Anti, DSF, Judge, Seibrik. See how often they lose to other characters.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

@Kewkky:

Christianity: Nonsensical garbage
Atheism: Obvious truth

I'm not arguing anything! No really!

When you paint something with such clear biasness and in such a bad light, you're bound to get replys to it.

Really? What is it then? The best MK in the world losing meaning that he's unbeatably broken, or something?

Don't you dare bring up religion in here 'cause it's off-topic and offensive if worded in such a redonculous manner.

 

[Mushinronsha]

*** The point of a competitive game is to entertain the public while making it so the best man wins. The game dies if people don't find it entertaining.

Entertaining the public should be a HUGE point to focus on. I think OverSwarm's graph on tournament attendance shows its importance. So many MKs could end up boring/frustrating the public, and tourney attendance may continue to drop.

 

[.AC.]

lol mk is so broken, ill just pick him up and become rich

For one, my region is dominated by an MK.

For two, I had a friend that I could 3 stock with remarkable consistency. He picked MK, and now he wins about 10% of the time. Coincidence?*

See? I can pick 2 people's achievements to support my side as well.

*And by pickup I mean literally played the guy for 5 minutes. And no, I don't get my *** beaten by nado spam and dsmash. **** that range and **** that gimping power.

To be fair, competition is supposed to be Darwinistic. The problem many people seem to be having with this is that it's also expected to be fair.

i beat my friend 100% of the times with dk, then he picked up ddd and *gasp* beat me. ban ddd!

 

[theunabletable]

The BCS is proven to be a bad system, for similar reasons, and is going to be replaced by whatever system when it's contract runs out.

I never said it was a good system overall.

But it doesn't cater to people who can't win.

Why should we cater to people who cannot win in competition?

See how often they lose to other characters.

Larry beat Tyrant 6-0 at WGF

Although Tyrant won their most recent set.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

A lot of people are amking an assumption here that the only people that can beat top level MK's are ADHD and Ally...

Unless top level MK's = only M2K, that's not true.

It would help your case to find the records for the other notable MK's, including Tyrant, Dojo, Shadow, Ksizzle, Anti, DSF, Judge, Seibrik. See how often they lose to other characters.

Well in Anti-Ban's opinion, ADHD is the top level of play, so therefore the top level of MKs should only be one player and that's M2K.

See how this logic is stupid?

Yo Sign of Madness, computers decide the ACTUAL BCS rankings. People are the ones who decide which teams go to each bowl.

 

[Overswarm]

Larry beat Tyrant 6-0 at WGF

Although Tyrant won their most recent set.

and that's with planking rules

 

[theunabletable]

Well in Anti-Ban's opinion, ADHD is the top level of play, so therefore the top level of MKs should only be one player and that's M2K.

That isn't anti-ban's opinion that's my opinion.

Stop stereotyping.

There are other top level MKs, yeah, but is ANYONE really doubting whether or not M2K is the best MK or not?

 

[Matador]

I've seen you post this so many times in all of the MK ban discussion threads, it's just annoying. It is stupid to expect anyone else to become as good with Diddy as ADHD is. We should base the ban on REALITY rather than POTENTIAL.

Many people have the potential to become really good, but most people just don't have the natural spacing/mindgames/tech ability or the time / opportunities for experience that he does. We know its not your fault that ADHD is better than us. We never said that it was.

So let me get this straight...pro-ban is NOW saying that, yeah, MK is beatable and everything, but it's unrealistic to consider that people can reach that level, so we ignore that fact when deciding whether or not to ban him?

Are You Serious?

Are we not into competitive gaming? Why are you playing this game if you're not trying to become the best?

Please tell me I'm misinterpreting this.

 

[Sorto]

Exactly.



But the SBR is, or rather should be, concerned with people other than the top 4 players in the world.

for the sake of competition the sbr need not be concerened with anyone but the top few percent of players. That is all that matters. I have a question for you pro banners. Stalling is banned correct? Now every1 knows mk is the king of stalling because he can air camp, scrooge, and ledge stall. But if stalling is banned that shudnt matter. Is mk ban worthy because of his offensive/defensive, nonstalling capabilities? And what about these abilities makes him banworthy?

 

[Kewkky]

*There is no competition if a large enough sum of people don't find it entertaining.

Subjective or not if you find it entertaining or not

Of course it's subjective, which is why you don't see every single "competitive fighter-loving Player" in the world inside the SF4 community. The point is, that those who DO enjoy watching SSBB for what it is will be turned down by what the metagame will eventually devolve to if the pro-ban's "predictions" keep true to their words: everyone maining/seconding MK for purposes of winning tourneys.

Just a question... Has there ever been a non-banned easy-to-use unanimously-best character in any other fighting game, besides MK?

*** The point of a competitive game is to entertain the public while making it so the best man wins. The game dies if people don't find it entertaining.

A full 100% ban is not the answer. That's bad for the game, too. The only thing that is really detrimental to the game is his stalling, which can be dealt with with easily enforceable rules.

Easily enforcable... Yet TOs haven't been able to find such rules, and when they DO make up their own rules on the matter, players worm and wiggle around the loopholes to continue the same stalling as before. Doesn't seem like a couple of surgical changes will do anything.

 

[Overswarm]

Stalling is banned correct? Now every1 knows mk is the king of stalling because he can air camp, scrooge, and ledge stall. But if stalling is banned that shudnt matter.

None of those are considered stalling.

 

[Flayl]

Well in Anti-Ban's opinion, ADHD is the top level of play, so therefore the top level of MKs should only be one player and that's M2K.

See how this logic is stupid?

Well the pro-ban's point has been to say repeatedly that it's "ADHD, Ally and then a bunch of MKs".

So which is it?

 

[Overswarm]

Look at my posts with the charts, flayl.

 

[Flayl]

They don't give matchup data, just results?

 

[theunabletable]

Just a question... Has there ever been a non-banned easy-to-use unanimously-best character in any other fighting game, besides MK?

Idk much about other fighting games.

Jiggs is pretty easy to use (compared to like Fox), and at the highest current level of metagame he seems to have the most practical potential.

Easily enforcable... Yet TOs haven't been able to find such rules, and when they DO make up their own rules on the matter, players worm and wiggle around the loopholes to continue the same stalling as before. Doesn't seem like a couple of surgical changes will do anything.

*moving from what side of the stage to the other, from the underside as MK (maybe Pit) is illegal*

Find a loophole.

They don't give matchup data, just results?

Results of top 8. Not who actually wins.

EDITTED FOR EXTRA CLARITY (could be made with better wording)

 

[Dark.Pch]

Are we not into competitive gaming? Why are you playing this game if you're not trying to become the best?

For fun? people travel around just to have fun playing this game with alot of people and making friends. People tend to forgot why a video game was made. And the purpose of it. Getting into this broken game does not mean try to be the best or gtfo. Where is there a rule that says this?

 

[theunabletable]

For fun? people travel around just to have fun playing this game with alot of people and making friends. People tend to forgot why a video game was made. And the purpose of it. Getting into this broken game does not mean try to be the best or gtfo. Where is there a rule that says this?

Then you are not playing to win. Stop whining about the people who are.

I play this game for fun, too. I suck and know I won't be as good as ADHD. But I am not going to **** over better players than I by constantly johning about how I suck and how players like M2K (who ARE playing to win) shouldn't be able to play their best character because I'm bad.

 

[Kewkky]

*gliding under the stage as MK (maybe Pit) is illegal*

Find a loophole.

"What if the character either tries to go over the stage or to the ledge, and either way will get punished, and going under the stage is the only safe way to avoid certain death? What if the other character is Charizard and he takes advantage of this? What if the opponent is Snake and has set up bombs all over one of the ledges, and if Pit gets up he will 100% certainly die, and going under the stage to the other side is the only way to return safely?"

Done.

 

[Overswarm]

*moving from what side of the stage to the other, from the underside as MK (maybe Pit) is illegal*

Find a loophole.

Charizard.

 

[Flayl]

I should clarify, you have 2 points of view here.

1) Metagame that counts is only the créme-de-la-créme, in which we have ADHD, Ally and M2K. I don't really agree with this vision, but if you go by this MK isn't bannable.

2) Metagame also includes the best placers in the highly developed regions. This one I agree with and I do know that it's not just "ADHD, Ally and a bunch of MKs". The question is what characters are going at least even with MK at this level.

Prove that it's a total wipeout for MK and you have a solid point of evidence.