Official Metaknight Discussion

[theunabletable]

Also, Sign of Madness, way to quote my conclusion and deny it WITHOUT quoting (or even trying to refute) the logic I used to set it up.

Because I'm lazy.

Yeah the game would be more diverse without MK, that doesn't automatically mean he should be banned.

The game would be more diverse without D3's infinite on DK. It shouldn't be banned, though.

At higher skilled events, like with 100+ people, MK is a clear winner.

No, winner's have a number 1 next to their name. Not a 2.

MK is an easy to play, amazing character. He is BOUND to have more placements than all other characters.

What is it about him having LOTS of representation that makes him bannable? We KNOW it's not at the point where you have to play as MK or lose; so what does him being really popular (which is something easy to play characters, and the best characters usually have (MK is both)) and having lots of tournament representation have to do with him being broken and needing a ban?

Let's get Sirlin in here. Yeah, he'll sort our stuff out. :V

So we should use Sirlin's criteria?

Oh and I have a tourney on Saturday, and my sleep schedule is all screwed up anyways, so I might as well stay up the rest of the day, and get to bed early so I can be nice and rested on Saturday.

Now I'm posting graphs and numbers and it shows a clear trend but I'm being told the same thing. >_>

I am not other MK mains, I wasn't playing when those mains made those arguments.

Imo the only way a character is bannable if it gets to the point where you must play MK or lose. It is not at that point yet, thus I do not believe he should be banned.

 

[Magus-Cie]

you already have me laughing

A) he hasnt put in the time to be good at the matchup (most likely)

B) he honestly does suck in the matchup, even after putting in the Real time to learn it, wich is rare.

lets ban mk because one decent pit player loses the matchup?

cmon OS, your arguments used to at least make sense. oh wait....

Because...you know...the possibility of the matchup being too difficult for Pit if the two players are equally skilled is too hard for you you to admit right?

It would be nice if players on either side of this argument could supress their bias for just a little bit and actually look at the other side's arguments with a little bit of openess.

 

[Overswarm]

No, winner's have a number 1 next to their name. Not a 2.

MK is an easy to play, amazing character. He is BOUND to have more placements than all other characters.

This is only true at the lowest levels of play. At higher levels of play, this is not true in the slightest. This is why c-sticking Marth players could wreck noobs regardless of their character, but as you went up the bracket you saw very technical Foxes and Falcos despite their difficulty to play in comparison to Marth and Sheik.

What is it about him having LOTS of representation that makes him bannable? We KNOW it's not at the point where you have to play as MK or lose; so what does him being really popular (which is something easy to play characters, and the best characters usually have (MK is both)) and having lots of tournament representation have to do with him being broken and needing a ban?

What do you mean, "we know"? Only Ally and ADHD have been able to do it consistently, and even then they don't win every event. Again, you're telling me that the box isn't too heavy because a few body builders have raised it over their head. I don't care what the body builders do when no one else can do it.

When I say "no one else", I don't mean joe schmoe that gets counterd by a d-smash and tornado spamming MK. I mean everyone below ADHD/Ally.

It's not the amount of players, it's the amount of success those players have had on a consistent basis. The amount of MK mains and their placements has grown tremendously, and other characters have not done so. I also don't use the word "broken".

For all intents and purposes, maining Metaknight is your best bet. If you don't main him, picking him up as a secondary is crucial. As time has gone on this has gotten worse; that's what my data shows. It's not just "LOTS of representation", it's lots of GOOD representation at all levels of play. This isn't just a noob-owning character. This character is head and shoulders above everyone else in the game.

Oh and I have a tourney on Saturday, and my sleep schedule is all screwed up anyways, so I might as well stay up the rest of the day, and get to bed early so I can be nice and rested on Saturday.

Trick I discovered: drink a TON of water the day before a tournament, and then on the day of the tournament drink something with caffine on an empty stomach. You get jolted awake real fast.

I am not other MK mains, I wasn't playing when those mains made those arguments.

Imo the only way a character is bannable if it gets to the point where you must play MK or lose. It is not at that point yet, thus I do not believe he should be banned.

In other words, you're okay with:

1. Diddy
2. Metaknight
3. Metaknight
4. Metaknight
5. Metaknight
6. Metaknight
7. Metaknight
8. Metaknight
9. Metaknight
10. Metaknight
11. Metaknight
12. Metaknight



You are a minority in this train of thought.

In addition to this, no other competitive community I can think of has had that criteria. Most banned characters I can think of were banned without even having close to the amount of data we have on MK.

 

[Big-Cat]

Here's a thought:

Any chance we can get someone or some group from outside the Smash community (and possibly someone from outside of fighting games in general) to read over the arguments made by each side and make a decision?

The problem here is that no vote can truly be unbiased; nearly everyone is in a position to either gain or to lose from a removal of MK. The logic of the arguments themselves are rendered almost irrelevant to most people's votes, ESPECIALLY those in the back room, most of whom are good enough to actually take money at the expense of the rest of us in the community.


Also, Sign of Madness, way to quote my conclusion and deny it WITHOUT quoting (or even trying to refute) the logic I used to set it up.

The problem with that idea is that if you were to bring this to say SRK or Dustloop, they will probably rip on the game in general. Also, the game functions differently from traditional fighters so their criteria won't necessarily take into account the exclusive features in Smash. The only way I can think of that would remotely work is to bring this discussion to people who play both Smash and traditional fighters extensively.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

you already have me laughing



k. so that means either

A) he hasnt put in the time to be good at the matchup (most likely)

B) he honestly does suck in the matchup, even after putting in the Real time to learn it, wich is rare.

lets ban mk because one decent pit player loses the matchup?

cmon OS, your arguments used to at least make sense. oh wait....

Eh... Was he using that as an argument for the banning of MK? I don't think so... Please go reread the thread again. Yes, the whole thread. Like I did.

Spoiler

So that I don't have to read your posts any more.

Because I'm lazy.

Yeah the game would be more diverse without MK, that doesn't automatically mean he should be banned.

The game would be more diverse without D3's infinite on DK. It shouldn't be banned, though. No, winner's have a number 1 next to their name. Not a 2.

You mean almost every tournament where we don't have said outlying cases like ADHD and ally?

MK is an easy to play, amazing character. He is BOUND to have more placements than all other characters.

What is it about him having LOTS of representation that makes him bannable? We KNOW it's not at the point where you have to play as MK or lose; so what does him being really popular (which is something easy to play characters, and the best characters usually have (MK is both)) and having lots of tournament representation have to do with him being broken and needing a ban?

This is not just lots of representation. Look again; this is representation in the top 8s of big tournaments. As OS said, Anti-Ban is really clinging to these two outliers, Ally and ADHD, with all their might. And one of them plays MK now.

So we should use Sirlin's criteria?

This was a joke.

Oh and I have a tourney on Saturday, and my sleep schedule is all screwed up anyways, so I might as well stay up the rest of the day, and get to bed early so I can be nice and rested on Saturday. I am not other MK mains, I wasn't playing when those mains made those arguments.

Imo the only way a character is bannable if it gets to the point where you must play MK or lose. It is not at that point yet, thus I do not believe he should be banned.

When it gets to that point, it's too late. Period. If it comes down to MK vs. MK in almost every match, then the game will die. You want to wait until it's obviously too late?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

In addition to this, no other competitive community I can think of has had that criteria. Most banned characters I can think of were banned without even having close to the amount of data we have on MK.

Why don't we look at every other character in a fighting game that were banned and try to find the discussions concerning them in order to find out if MK matches up with them?

 

[Overswarm]

Why don't we look at every other character in a fighting game that were banned and try to find the discussions concerning them in order to find out if MK matches up with them?

If you want info on that, Scamp is the best for that. You could PM him and get info if he's up to it; he's the SF guy in the SBR.

From what I've seen, they didn't have near the dominance that MK has. They were banned the same way D3's infinite was banned: "OMG that's so gay" and then they got the boot.

 

[theunabletable]

This is only true at the lowest levels of play. At higher levels of play, this is not true in the slightest. This is why c-sticking Marth players could wreck noobs regardless of their character, but as you went up the bracket you saw very technical Foxes and Falcos despite their difficulty to play in comparison to Marth and Sheik.

You're right it doesn't mean much.

But when the best character in the game REALLY doesn't require and extraneous effort at all, he's bound to be played more than a character like Melee Fox/ICs or Brawl ICs where you have to do everything technically perfect to do well.

Only Ally and ADHD have been able to do it consistently, and even then they don't win every event. Again, you're telling me that the box isn't too heavy because a few body builders have raised it over their head. I don't care what the body builders do when no one else can do it.

I can't beat campy Falco's. Ban Falco

When I say "no one else", I don't mean joe schmoe that gets counterd by a d-smash and tornado spamming MK. I mean everyone below ADHD/Ally.

ADHD and Ally show what is possible with their characters (and do so practically, not theoretically). If you play those characters to the highest level, then you can beat MKs played at the highest level (M2K).

Humans have done it, thus it is doable. It isn't my fault you're not as good as them, nor is it their or your fault that I suck.

For all intents and purposes, maining Metaknight is your best bet.

Of COURSE it is, he's the best character.

It's not the amount of players, it's the amount of success those players have had on a consistent basis. The amount of MK mains and their placements has grown tremendously, and other characters have not done so.

Other characters have likely not done so because MK is so much easier to pick up than, say Diddy (Diddy is hard as hell to play well compared to MK), and he's the best in the game.

You have to exert practically nothing stressful to play him well. You aren't going to lose because you screwed up something technical and couldn't take advantage of the situation.

I find few things more angering than knowing you lost due to your own technical error (like knowing you had the 3 grabs you needed to win as ICs, but you couldn't capitilize and lost because of that).

It's not just "LOTS of representation", it's lots of GOOD representation at all levels of play. This isn't just a noob-owning character. This character is head and shoulders above everyone else in the game.

It's an amazingly good character, who takes no effort to play well, and has become extremely popular due to being the best for the entire game's life. It is a TON of good representation, yeah, but if other characters played at the highest level can beat MK played at the highest level, then he isn't bannable in my opinion.

Trick I discovered: drink a TON of water the day before a tournament, and then on the day of the tournament drink something with caffine on an empty stomach. You get jolted awake real fast.

Hmm that sounds like a good tip. I'll definitely try that.

Thanks!

In other words, you're okay with:

Yeah I am. But most of the community isn't. I agree that something should be done for the community. I do NOT believe, however, that a 100% ban is what is best for the community.

If the entire community pushes for a ban, there isn't anything I can do about it, except, perhaps, try and convince people that a total ban is unnecesary and artificially limiting his stalling abilities is better for the community (I find both things rather illogical, but if it's a choice between one or the other, limiting him seems like a far better choice).

I think if it gets to the point where he can get banned, then BEFORE that we should explore whether limiting his stalling abilities (and maybe even gay CP stuff) would make him balanced enough to not be banned.

In addition to this, no other competitive community I can think of has had that criteria. Most banned characters I can think of were banned without even having close to the amount of data we have on MK.

I don't know of any banned characters other than Akuma lol.

And didn't Omni post a Japanese rankings thing that should that Sagat was even more dominant than MK was at Pound 4?

 

[Kewkky]

And didn't Omni post a Japanese rankings thing that should that Sagat was even more dominant than MK was at Pound 4?

I didn't see 8 Sagats in the top 10.

 

[Kuraudo]

I haven't quite figured out what Anti-ban wants me to do.

First they said "you're appealing to emotion" and "you're just saying what WILL happen, not what HAS happened. Yeah, MK is doing great now but Brawl just started!"

Now I'm posting graphs and numbers and it shows a clear trend but I'm being told the same thing. >_>

Ignorant as this may sound (wait for it, someone who disapproves of banning MK's gonna come and tell me that I paint a "pretty picture" for Pro-Ban),

As of right now, this is straight up denial from the Anti-Ban side of things.

You, along with the other points presented by those who want MK banned, have done nothing but continue to contribute more and more. Anti-Ban found counters, somewhat legimately so, in appealing to the emotion, but we gave their side what they wanted to see.

Thing is, Meta Knight dominates much like the Sagats of Street Fighter IV do. Meta Knight as a character is good. Somebody's going to have the best qualities in every game. Here's where the line is drawn, however, in my mind.

Scrooging, Planking, Air Camping, gliding away and high above the stage, all tactics that simply can't be monitored all the time, even at the littlest of tournaments. They detract from how Meta Knight should be played. Him adapting to any style isn't the main problem here. It's him utilizing tactics that no other character can, that you can freely get away with to change the tide of a match-up. And the second that someone DOES get you? Meta Knight turns the tables, owns, and then resets the situation over again.

That's harmful to how a Smash Bros. game is played.

Peach Bomber Stalling in Melee is banned. Yet how come Planking and Scrooging are overlooked in Brawl? Because such tactics happen so quickly.

And,

Because LEGITIMATELY? Meta Knight, along with any other glider, could use going under the stage to their advantage to avoid someone's edgeguard game, to get back on the stage to fight. I think that's awesome. One can tell when they're trying to avoid a tough spot, and just taking seconds off the clock when they're not in danger.

MK's high priority on attacks wasn't the main issue in my mind. MK playing the matches properly without the planking and other stalling/timing out tactics, when mastered, he would still dominate. Someone has to. But with those "gay" tactics that can't be truly stopped even if our lives depended on it?

The scale is tipped even FURTHER in MK's favor. And that's game breaking, discouraging if the trend continues and MK players are on the rise with such tactics that aren't punished by TO's or the SBR.

Here's the tl;dr version.

MK by himself, as a character and for all his traits. Is a terrific character that I would gladly accept into Brawl. Due to Brawl's physics and how his moveset works to COMPLIMENT what takes away from what would be a proper match rather then avoiding it altogether?

THAT'S STUPID.

Last thing I'll say about this topic, I swear. Look back on the thousand topics here. I said something that's already been said before. I don't care. I'm kinda fed up. I'll fight like I always have against whatever MK that comes my way, gay tactics or no. But I'm Pro-Ban until the very end.

The Pro-Ban side of things wants a diverse competitive fighter for all the right reasons. Don't think we're so shallow.

 

[theunabletable]

I didn't see 8 Sagats in the top 10.

I saw a Sagat with a number 1 next to his name. And 39% of the total amount were Sagat's, which is more than the total for Pound 4 MKs.

What matters is the number 1 next to his name, however.

The Pro-Ban side of things wants a diverse competitive fighter for all the right reasons. Don't think we're so shallow.

Right completely ban a character instead of making easily enforceable rules so he could never be banned.

That'll make the game more diverse.

While we're at it, ban D3's infinite on DK, amirite?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I saw a Sagat with a number 1 next to his name. And 39% of the total amount were Sagat's, which is more than the total for Pound 4 MKs.

That means that the MKs, though there were less of them, placed better than the Sagats. I think that tells us something.

 

[theunabletable]

That means that the MKs, though there were less of them, placed better than the Sagats. I think that tells us something.

I didn't see any MKs that had that little number 1 next to their name on any of the Pound 4 single's lists.

I did see a Diddy, though, and on that list that Omni showed I saw one of those 1s next to the Sagat's name.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I didn't see any MKs that had that little number 1 next to their name on any of the Pound 4 single's lists.

I did see a Diddy, though, and on that list that Omni showed I saw one of those 1s next to the Sagat's name.

That argument is ridiculous. It proves nothing. At the highest level of play, some people (ADHD, Ally) can beat MKs. We know this. Because ADHD beat M2K in the finals, it shows that ADHD is better than M2K, or at least was on that day. Nothing more.

Stop clinging to this argument, it isn't a good one. Think of a real argument, please.

 

[Kuraudo]

I saw a Sagat with a number 1 next to his name. And 39% of the total amount were Sagat's, which is more than the total for Pound 4 MKs.

What matters is the number 1 next to his name, however. Right completely ban a character instead of making easily enforceable rules so he could never be banned.

That'll make the game more diverse.

While we're at it, ban D3's infinite on DK, amirite?

Easily enforced?

You really think the community as a whole is going to be able to just check the ledge grab count after EVERY match or care enough about that? Especially at a national when things have to go so fast, boom boom we're at Grand Finals on schedule, etc.? Nothing but conflict will come from official SBR rules being established about Scrooging, Planking, Ledge Grab Counts, and whatnot, ALL for the reason of Meta Knight.

Also, I think the D3 infinite is silly. Small-step, in my personal opinion, while just as bad, is far more tolerable because it has an inevitable end. In my perfect world, ICs would only be able to chaingrab using the forward throw motion so that they eventually take the opponent to the edge.

But that's off topic, so don't bother with that part. Just saying my part there.

Ahem, continue folks.

 

[Syde7]

I posted this in one of the threads before... but I don't know if it was addressed (didnt see if it was, my apologies) so I'll post something similar here:

The whole idea of coming up with like... 3-5 rules SPECIFICALLY for a character... is utterly stupid.

Saying: "He can only grab the ledge this many times", "he can only stay in the air that long", "He can only go under the stage this many times if he isn't recovering"... and a plethora of other proposed rules.... is silly, for several reasons:

1) Outside of individual MUs (like DDD/DK and stuff), creating rules for ONE character is a sign that that char is pretty broken. Also, applying these rules to ONE character, is also very unfair. More unfair than outright banning that character. Yes, the char is still PLAYABLE, but... not to the extent that he COULD BE... which, imo, is inherently the same thing. People who play, and win with MK do so because they have ALL his tools at their disposal. Whether these tools are "gay" or "lame" is irrelevant. Attempting to surgically alter the character through various rules... is inherently the same as banning it. I get that people are saying: "MK is fine... as long as he can't do this, that, or this." But... if those rules in place, you aren't *really* playing MK anymore. Well, technically you are... but, you should get the point.

2) These rules should not be singularly applied to MK. That is to say, they should apply to ANY character that can (and does) go under the stage (in terms of scrooging) and ANY character that can (and does) plank, ANY character that abuses near invulnerability in the air (due to good defensive/wall aerials).

This whole idea of a "middle ground" simply won't (and shouldn't be allowed to) work. The fact that this "middle ground" is attempted to be reach, is more or less a concession that some facets of his game are broken. Multiple facets, actually. It seems that people are wanting to go SOOO far out there to keep him in the game, by coming up with these silly "rule proposals", to do anything... EXCEPT ban him.

So far, all of the proposals (ledge grabs, air time, scrooging counts, etc) are more arbitrary and more complicated than just removing the character.

 

[Sorto]

i know it sounds like a weird idea. But could work if people really wished to try it. What if tournies standardly held tournaments with standard rulesets and ones with mk banned rulesets, along with any side tournies they wish to have. Anyone could enter either tourny or both tournies if they wished to. This would hopefully allow organizers to have similar tournament participation. Everyone in a sense would get there way. And it would allow other characters a chance to develop there metagame more, since there actually being used. Perhaps after that, they can try to play there character in stanadard ruleset tournament and all they wud have left to do is learn 1 matchup, while mks would behind on a whole bunch. I am antiban btw, just i feel that this idea would keep tourny organizers and players makin money, allow for character development, and allow people to see the true results that would appear if mk was banned (for statistical purposes).

 

[Overswarm]

You're right it doesn't mean much.

But when the best character in the game REALLY doesn't require and extraneous effort at all, he's bound to be played more than a character like Melee Fox/ICs or Brawl ICs where you have to do everything technically perfect to do well. I can't beat campy Falco's. Ban Falco ADHD and Ally show what is possible with their characters (and do so practically, not theoretically). If you play those characters to the highest level, then you can beat MKs played at the highest level (M2K).

Humans have done it, thus it is doable. It isn't my fault you're not as good as them, nor is it their or your fault that I suck. Of COURSE it is, he's the best character. Other characters have likely not done so because MK is so much easier to pick up than, say Diddy (Diddy is hard as hell to play well compared to MK), and he's the best in the game.

This isn't a logical argument. Your character alone doesn't decide victory; the player has a big part in this. Now, if you saw other Snakes and Diddys doing this and saw a steady trend of Snake and Diddy both increasing in usage at the top 8 of the giant tournaments you'd have an argument. Right now, you only have two players and one of them has started using MK; without using tornado, he has managed to win tournaments and compete with the top players of this game. The other proclaims Diddy vs. MK to be an even matchup, and he's in the minority. Most Diddy mains claim it is MK favored (granted, even is close to it).

The fact of the matter is, no character in Brawl is hard. If you want to play Diddy, it really isn't that difficult. ICs CGs take about a day to learn.

You have to exert practically nothing stressful to play him well. You aren't going to lose because you screwed up something technical and couldn't take advantage of the situation.

I find few things more angering than knowing you lost due to your own technical error (like knowing you had the 3 grabs you needed to win as ICs, but you couldn't capitilize and lost because of that). It's an amazingly good character, who takes no effort to play well, and has become extremely popular due to being the best for the entire game's life. It is a TON of good representation, yeah, but if other characters played at the highest level can beat MK played at the highest level, then he isn't bannable in my opinion.

Other characters haven't shown they've been able to. Other players have.


Look at it this way:

If your 5 year old cousin picks up Metaknight and you beat him with captain falcon, does this mean captain falcon can beat Metaknight and everyone else just needs to step their game up?

What about when your 5 year old cousin plays your other 5 year old cousin, and his MK loses to the other kids captain falcon. Does that mean captain falcon can beat Metaknight and everyone else just needs to get better?

What Ally and ADHD have shown is that they're good players playing good characters. The first clue that these characters aren't MK counters is the vast gap between Ally and other Snakes and ADHD and other Diddys. If there were other Diddy mains doing similar things we could say the character was a big part, but there isn't.

In addition to this, they are using the 2nd and 3rd best characters in the game, as currently ranked and have shown to be two of the three best players in the world. This is hardly anything that can be considered normalcy. They are outliers in a sea of consistent data, and you can't guess that a trend will come about because of an outlier like that.

Yeah I am. But most of the community isn't. I agree that something should be done for the community. I do NOT believe, however, that a 100% ban is what is best for the community.

If the entire community pushes for a ban, there isn't anything I can do about it, except, perhaps, try and convince people that a total ban is unnecesary and artificially limiting his stalling abilities is better for the community (I find both things rather illogical, but if it's a choice between one or the other, limiting him seems like a far better choice).

I think if it gets to the point where he can get banned, then BEFORE that we should explore whether limiting his stalling abilities (and maybe even gay CP stuff) would make him balanced enough to not be banned.

We have limited his stalling abilities already. Planking was banned in multiple events before the SBR uttered a word, and then scrooging was invented. Planking still occurs, too. There are a myriad of problems with surgical changes that I won't get into here; you can read about them in the thread "Surgical vs. Global changes" if you'd like.

I don't know of any banned characters other than Akuma lol.

Which version of Akuma do you know of? XD

Old Sagat too, if I recall. I think Soul Calibur had some ban talks too.

 

[Kuraudo]

RaZer gets it too.

What I wouldn't give to be in the BBR to actually know what the hell is going on behind closed doors...

Guess I'll get good with MK. lolwut

Wow that was a shallow and tasteless joke. XD!

 

[swordgard]

Popular as hell?

This is top 8 of tournaments with over 150 people. Death brackets. Death pools. The argument that "MK is just popular" only holds weight at low level regionals (where MK does win a lot). At higher skilled events, like with 100+ people, MK is a clear winner. You're ignoring all of MK's successes due to a few random wins by two different players: ADHD and Ally. How can you ignore a statistical trend based on two obvious outliers?

The point of the game is to be an outlier, it shows character potential. If I went to go and win a national with Falcon, I doubt that Falcon is supposed to be low tier. You pointed out that you can win anything by being much smarter but here is something for you to consider.
If ADHD wins, there must 2 reasons:
A) The character does much better than we expected vs MK, we just gotta learn the matchup like him.
B) He is simply much smarter than M2K, thus we are far from maximized metagame and thus cannot estimate if MK is that much of a problem.

Get on ADHD level and stop whinning.

EDIT: Are you implying ADHD is simply that much smarter from every MK out there? I guess your examples only work if there is someone extremely better or the character is very good, and both work against you.

 

[theunabletable]

That argument is ridiculous. It proves nothing. At the highest level of play, some people (ADHD, Ally) can beat MKs. We know this. Because ADHD beat M2K in the finals, it shows that ADHD is better than M2K, or at least was on that day. Nothing more.

Stop clinging to this argument, it isn't a good one. Think of a real argument, please.

How the hell is MK bannable if the best MK in the world gets THREE TO ZERO'D in grand finals?

I just can't see why we should cater to the people who aren't good enough to beat MK.

It makes absolutely no sense to me to ban a character who, at the top of its metagame, can still practically get 3-0'd by other characters.

Easily enforced?

You really think the community as a whole is going to be able to just check the ledge grab count after EVERY match or care enough about that? Especially at a national when things have to go so fast, boom boom we're at Grand Finals on schedule, etc.? Nothing but conflict will come from official SBR rules being established about Scrooging, Planking, Ledge Grab Counts, and whatnot, ALL for the reason of Meta Knight.

Ledge grab limit that only applies to time out. If your opponent times you out, spend an extra 10 seconds checking ledge grabs.

Your opponent glides under the stage once? Call for someone (a friend, or someone unbiased, a TO, etc) to watch the match and if they glide under the stage again, either they get DQ'd or they have to give up that stock.

If you are ****ing strict about it, it won't happen often. I know I'm not going to DARE gliding under the stage if I know my opponent WILL call a TO over and maybe save a replay and get me auto-DQ'd.

It's just not worth it to scrooge if I know for sure that I'll get DQ'd for it, thus I won't even happen

ICs would only be able to chaingrab using the forward throw motion so that they eventually take the opponent to the edge.

You can infinite back and forth across the stage with just Fthrow. Just do an Fthrow pivot grab CG, and BAM turned around.

This isn't a logical argument. Your character alone doesn't decide victory; the player has a big part in this.

Then a good player can overcome the BEST MK.

If the BEST MK can practically be overcome by people, then I just CANNOT see how he should be banned. I just can't imagine any reason in which a completely beatable character at the highest level is bannable.

The fact of the matter is, no character in Brawl is hard. If you want to play Diddy, it really isn't that difficult. ICs CGs take about a day to learn.

It doesn't take long at all to learn the CGs, but how often do you see Lain or Meep screw them up?

You can still screw them up really, really easily.

If your 5 year old cousin picks up Metaknight and you beat him with captain falcon, does this mean captain falcon can beat Metaknight and everyone else just needs to step their game up?

No, but if I THREE TO ZERO THE BEST MK IN THE WORLD?

That is a completely different story.

We have limited his stalling abilities already. Planking was banned in multiple events before the SBR uttered a word, and then scrooging was invented. Planking still occurs, too. There are a myriad of problems with surgical changes that I won't get into here; you can read about them in the thread "Surgical vs. Global changes" if you'd like.

I agree that there are problems with surgically changing things. However what's better for the community, completely banning the most popular character that many people play, or making easy to enforce rules that make that character unbannable?

The latter just makes more sense, imo.

Which version of Akuma do you know of? XD

Agh I don't remember all the names of the SF2 versions.

The uber, super, duper broken one.

 

[swordgard]

How the hell is MK bannable if the best MK in the world gets THREE TO ZERO'D in grand finals?

I just can't see why we should cater to the people who aren't good enough to beat MK.

It makes absolutely no sense to me to ban a character who, at the top of its metagame, can still practically get 3-0'd by other characters. Ledge grab limit that only applies to time out. If your opponent times you out, spend an extra 10 seconds checking ledge grabs.

Your opponent glides under the stage once? Call for someone (a friend, or someone unbiased, a TO, etc) to watch the match and if they glide under the stage again, either they get DQ'd or they have to give up that stock.

If you are ****ing strict about it, it won't happen often. I know I'm not going to DARE gliding under the stage if I know my opponent WILL call a TO over and maybe save a replay and get me auto-DQ'd.

It's just not worth it to scrooge if I know for sure that I'll get DQ'd for it, thus I won't even happen You can infinite back and forth across the stage with just Fthrow. Just do an Fthrow pivot grab CG, and BAM turned around.

Terribad idea, you get trip %/


Old sagat wasnt banned, only soft ban in japan, not in usa.

 

[Kuraudo]

There's nothing I can say to your opinion on how the ledge grab limit, the planking, and scrooging and whatnot is called. I disagree and think it couldn't be that easy and people will get away with it, but you are right in the principle that it COULD happen. But when you factor in how many people will be playing, how many TO's or people could actually monitor over 30 matches going on at once if Meta Knight is involved, while remaining unbiased or watching like a hawk? Would it happen? Talk about pressuring for that MK player. I wouldn't want someone watching me, that's for sure.

As for the IC's thing? I mean without that pivot grab to make it an infinite. lol

 

[theunabletable]

Terribad idea, you get trip %/

Oh I didn't deny that. He just said that the perfect world would be one where ICs could only Fthrow because they can only go one direction. Which is wrong. You can still infinite with just Fthrow.

I disagree and think it couldn't be that easy and people will get away with it, but you are right in the principle that it COULD happen.

Throw a "MK can't glide under stages" rule, then you aren't going to see MKs gliding under stages. And the one or two times it happens it doesn't matter because it's not used for stalling because they are SURE to get DQ'd for stalling.

IDC was banned for stalling.

Sure every once in a while someone throws one out for a moment. But no one EVER stalls with it.

Ban going under the stage with MK. It might happen every once in a while, but I GUARANTEE you WILL NOT see anyone doing it for 8 minutes straight. No one is stupid enough to SURELY get DQ'd like that.

You just have to be strict about it.

But when you factor in how many people will be playing, how many TO's or people could actually monitor over 30 matches going on at once if Meta Knight is involved, while remaining unbiased or watching like a hawk? Would it happen? Talk about pressuring for that MK player. I wouldn't want someone watching me, that's for sure.

Do we have TOs CONSTANTLY watching every match to make sure no one IDCs for 8 minutes straight? Someone might IDC once but then you didn't stall with it and the rule did what it was supposed to... prevent stalling. Banning going under the stage would prevent stalling, and no one would care if you went under the stage once as a mixup recovery because you didn't stall with it. And you wouldn't do it ANYWAYS for fear of getting DQ'd.

You would very, very rarely have to deal with someone actually stalling by going under the stage.

35-40 ledge grab limit that only applies to time out. After the match check the ledge grabs, if it's over that amount, call a TO over. It'll take a negligable (I can't spell worth **** when I'm so tired lol) amount of time.

As for the IC's thing? I mean without that pivot grab to make it an infinite. lol

Actually moving while doing the Fthrow CG is overrated

 

[Overswarm]

How the hell is MK bannable if the best MK in the world gets THREE TO ZERO'D in grand finals?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260460

M2K has no idea what he's doing vs. Diddy. None.

I just can't see why we should cater to the people who aren't good enough to beat MK.

You mean EVERYONE but two people?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

How the hell is MK bannable if the best MK in the world gets THREE TO ZERO'D in grand finals?

Because ADHD is better than M2K. Simple as that. I don't see why you don't understand this. At top levels of play, it comes down to the player.

I just can't see why we should cater to the people who aren't good enough to beat MK.

Oh I don't know, that'd be catering to EVERYONE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT 2 PLAYERS.

EDIT: OS beat me to it.

 

[Ripple]

guys if you want to be good at collecting data, you need to throw out the extreme scores.

its what every good statistician does. throw out the best MK, snake, diddy, falco, and so on and what do out get?

MK takes every spot

 

[Kuraudo]

Huh... Kind of an interesting thought.

But that kind of perspective can be seen as skewed. Anyone could take what you said, and interpret it as all the other MKs just being scrubs, or while good, they are not of a national level.

 

[theunabletable]

M2K has no idea what he's doing vs. Diddy. None.

ADHD's performance

Winners' bracket
Bye
Defeated Y.B.M.
Defeated Fatal
Defeated Havok
Defeated KSizzle
Defeated Mew2King
Defeated Mew2King


Overall placing: 1/48

All those other MKs he plays don't know what to do either.

You mean EVERYONE but two people?

I don't see the problem with this.

Not my fault you're not as good as ADHD. Should we ban players from sports who are better than everyone else so that the worse players have a chance at winning?

Because ADHD is better than M2K. Simple as that. I don't see why you don't understand this. At top levels of play, it comes down to the player.

If it comes down to the player, then playing MK doesn't make that big of a difference, and he shouldn't be banned.

Oh I don't know, that'd be catering to EVERYONE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT 2 PLAYERS.

This is inherently wrong, why?

 

[swordgard]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260460

M2K has no idea what he's doing vs. Diddy. None.



You mean EVERYONE but two people?

Guess what, the metagame only cares about the top of the top. Stop catering to the non top 3. Actually top 1. Also, you can't assume hes going to win once he knows the matchup. Heck, does anyone "know" the matchup? I just see people saying m2k doesnt know what he is doing, yet I dont see any other mk beating adhd.

 

[swordgard]

Because ADHD is better than M2K. Simple as that. I don't see why you don't understand this. At top levels of play, it comes down to the player.
.

Then what is the problem. I don't care about anything BUT top level. Nor does the SBR i think.

EDIT: Sorry for double post, you still didnt refute my last argument OS>

 

[theunabletable]

Guess what, the metagame only cares about the top of the top. Stop catering to the non top 3. Actually top 1. Also, you can't assume hes going to win once he knows the matchup. Heck, does anyone "know" the matchup? I just see people saying m2k doesnt know what he is doing, yet I dont see any other mk beating adhd.

Do we think exactly the same on everything, or something?

Then what is the problem. I don't care about anything BUT top level. Nor does the SBR i think.

This.

Why does the performance of the WORSE players actually matter? I mean the performance of the teams who go out in first round of NFL playoffs don't matter more than the performance of the teams in the NFC/AFC championship/Super Bowl. Should we change the rules so that the first round team might do better?

 

[Overswarm]

*facepalm*


So despite a non-stop trend of MK's dominance and usage increasing, you think he should be touched because two guys in two years have done something no one else has emulated?

The point of the game is to be an outlier, it shows character potential. If I went to go and win a national with Falcon, I doubt that Falcon is supposed to be low tier. You pointed out that you can win anything by being much smarter but here is something for you to consider.

He's not using Falcon. They're using Snake and Diddy, 2nd and 3rd ranked characters. They're not breaking the tier list, they're good players doing something others cannot emulate.

 

[swordgard]

*facepalm*


So despite a non-stop trend of MK's dominance and usage increasing, you think he should be touched because two guys in two years have done something no one else has emulated?

Yes because the whole point of competition is to reach that level.

 

[theunabletable]

Yeah (and I've been saying this this whole topic. You should realize this by now).

What's wrong with that?

Not my fault you aren't as good as ADHD.

And ninja'd by Swordgard

 

[swordgard]

Yeah (and I've been saying this this whole topic. You should realize this by now).

What's wrong with that?

Not my fault you aren't as good as ADHD.

And ninja'd by Swordgard

ADHD does something others arent doing. Learn it to beat MKs, stop blaming MK for your shortcomings.

 

[Kuraudo]

If we all reached that level, Mew2King would hardly ever win. Neither would Ally. Or ADHD.

Hell. I could come along if I got up to their level, and take one national sometime, and then one other time it's random former scrubby mcscrubscrub. In a world where everyone else got to their level of skill, there would be no clear-cut best and the champions would always switch off. History mandates that just doesn't happen in competitive games.

There are people that will ALWAYS just be better than everyone else. Banning MK wouldn't cause a drastic change to our champions anyway. I find.

[EDIT]

How do I know? I don't. It doesn't make my point any less valuable as everyone else's here. Before anyone tries to nitpick that part.

 

[theunabletable]

^Yeah it would.

M2K wouldn't be top 3 (he wouldn't be playing Brawl OR Melee according to him), and ADHD and Ally by themselves would take everything instead (probably. I mean someone as good as them could come up, but MK being around wouldn't really change that).

 

[Palpi]

Swordgard, more people than just 2-3 need to beat M2k for your argument to be relevant. This is similar to the Reflex debate, when people argued that PT should be higher because of him. He wasn't beating people with PT for the most part, he was beating them with smart playing and amazing reads which isn't character dependent.

ADHD knows the MK mu like the back of his hand, and no MK knows the diddy MU that well except for maybe shadow. If more people proved to beat the top MK's with diddy than it wouldbe relevant, but the success of 1 indiviual is almost meaningless.

 

[Ripple]

ADHD does something others arent doing. Learn it to beat MKs, stop blaming MK for your shortcomings.

isn't it actually everyone but a couple people blaming MK for their down fall?