Official Metaknight Discussion

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

30 grab ledge rule

you can't go under the stage more than once without touching the stage (not the ledge)

there you go.

Arbitrary rules are arbitrary.

Still proving why I think a ban is better in the long run, rule catering and his MU's with the cast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbEyb7EHAOI

Edgehog, done.

 

[etecoon]

most rules are arbitrary, that doesn't really mean anything

 

[ShadowLink84]

Arbitrary rules are arbitrary.

Still proving why I think a ban is better in the long run, rule catering and his MU's with the cast.



Edgehog, done.

You cannot grab the ledge when facing away from it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

most rules are arbitrary, that doesn't really mean anything

To a degree yes, but you generally need justification for set limits.

 

[fkacyan]

You cannot grab the ledge when facing away from it.

Pretty much this. There's no easy edge snapping in Melee - You have to either jump backwards and FF onto the ledge or wavedash off the edge onto it (Note that if you do it too close to the edge with some characters and don't immediately DI towards the stage you'll miss, too).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You cannot grab the ledge when facing away from it.

Still stopping ledge stalling is much easier to do in Melee compared to Brawl where if MK does it, it's impossible if he does it right.

You can stop it in Melee, even if it is risky to attempt to stop it.

 

[Kitamerby]

You can still CG those characters, with the exception of Luigi, and even then, NONE of them can do anything to D3 even if all he does is backthrow them. The matchup just goes from 100-0 to 90-10.

Anyways, I wasn't referring to the CG, I was referring to the fact that his grab range is disgusting and a lot of mid and low tiers are forced to approach his shield, which is an awful situation for pretty much all of them.

@Shadowlink: I find it funny people are really hesitant about banning planking because it "artificially limits the character" but we've already done it to others.

It's possible to CG Luigi, it's just really hard and you get only get maybe 3 grabs across FD even if you do it right.
Actually, I hear Luigi and DK perform pretty well vs DDD without the infinite.


Also, there is auto-ledgesnap in Melee, you just have to either go at a downwards angle for it to kick in, which you generally see with Sheik/Mewtwo's ledgestalls, or be Fox/Falco on startup for up b.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Say something new for a change. If Ally and ADHD were taking top spots with, say, CF and PT, would you scream "MK is not broken because he isn't winning nationals" or would you scream "OH MY GOD ALLY AND ADHD ARE JUST THAT MUCH BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE INCLUDING THE TOP METAKNIGHT"?

Bring a new argument to the table, this one is older than the Salmon Mousse at the end of a Monty Python movie.

should just ban sheik, banning the technique is a surgical change and is BAD, because OS said so</budget post>

Haha. You're acting as if this stall was either unbeatable or even unpunishable like MK's. See, there's a big difference between that stall and MK's. In this case, it's relatively simple to time a wavedash edgehog to force sheik off the ledge. Once sheik is off the ledge, the situation is not that you are in ledge lag and your opponent has 5 jumps and a special in the air. The situation is that you have a relatively lagless ledge, and your opponent is in the middle of a move that lands them in specialfall. So basically, if you aren't an idiot, and main a character that is decent, you can get sheik out of this.

should just ban d3, banning the infinite is a surgical change and is BAD, because OS said so </budget post>

It doesn't matter how broken a character is on paper and; if we put enough limiting rules on a character so that they don't win nationals theyll be fine </TeeVee post>

Love the random flaming. DDD's infinite IS defined under the stalling rule, quite strictly and simply in fact. We could technically set it at any point past where a bthrow/uthrow/fthrow would kill anyone anywhere; for some reason we chose 300. The LGL is different because you're not only limiting the broken, stalling planking, you're limiting MK's offstage and ledge game which is not stalling.

EDIT: @Kit: Luigi arguably doesn't do too bad against DDD even WITH the infinite (crazy, right?), but DK... DK has no disjoints, even without the infinite, it's utter shieldgrab ****.

 

[TeeVee]

the fact that you think ally and adhd are THAT much better than m2k disturbs me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the fact that you think ally and adhd are THAT much better than m2k disturbs me.

Well when I hear that M2K was terrible at the Diddy MU, and hear that he won against Ally (with planking, I might add), I start to wonder.

 

[etecoon]

edge hogging sheik requires you to telegraph that you are going to do so and leave yourself vulnerable well in advance, same reason why other characters can plank in brawl in spite of not being perpetually mathematically invulnerable, it's still an incredibly advantageous position(much more so than melee anyway of course)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

edge hogging sheik requires you to telegraph that you are going to do so and leave yourself vulnerable well in advance, same reason why other characters can plank in brawl in spite of not being perpetually mathematically invulnerable, it's still an incredibly advantageous position(much more so than melee anyway of course)

It's telegraphed, but it also sets up for mindgames, right? Fake that you're gonna WD->edgehog, sheik goes onstage, you get a kill move out for free. Right? Right? I've explained why this doesn't work with MK's.

 

[etecoon]

MK's edge camping would be so broken if it were in melee

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK's edge camping would be so broken if it were in melee

Oh god... who would even stand a CHANCE of stopping it? Peach? Sheik? None of the other top tiers, lol. And I mean the non-broken ledge stalling, the one that isn't drop->jump->double Uair at the fastest speed possible. I mean just randomly dropping, jumping around a lot, and spamming uair.

 

[PottyJokes]

pretty sure m2ks data says if you do the shiek stalling perfectly there is no extra frames for her to be edgehogged at all.

 

[Judo777]

The funny thing is that MK can do the same thing as sheik in that vid using dimensional cape.....

 

[ShadowLink84]

Still stopping ledge stalling is much easier to do in Melee compared to Brawl where if MK does it, it's impossible if he does it right.

You can stop it in Melee, even if it is risky to attempt to stop it.

I am sorry but you are wrong.
It requires that you face BACKWARDS.
Which means you will have to wave dash or jump.
Sheik is invulnerable throughout the entire duration and leaves you NO chance to grab the edge. Period.
Ledge stalling is impossible t beat in melee with SHeik and Ganon because there are no vulnerable frames.

 

[Orion*]

Well when I HEAR that M2K was terrible at the Diddy MU, and hear that he won against Ally (with planking, I might add), I start to wonder.

if m2k was terrible at the diddy mu other diddys would beat him. its non tournament going, biased, annoying simpleton people like this that irk me. pro bans reasons from people like haldberds pov is actually reasonable and i can see some light in it. but budget player cadet is a scrub to the max and has no idea how to comprehend player skill.... because he hasnt played anyone on that level.

 

[fkacyan]

It's possible to CG Luigi, it's just really hard and you get only get maybe 3 grabs across FD even if you do it right.
Actually, I hear Luigi and DK perform pretty well vs DDD without the infinite.


Also, there is auto-ledgesnap in Melee, you just have to either go at a downwards angle for it to kick in, which you generally see with Sheik/Mewtwo's ledgestalls, or be Fox/Falco on startup for up b.

I fail to see how. You can still CG DK, even without the infinite, and neither of those characters can consistently approach D3's shield without bring grabbed AND while continuing to apply shield pressure.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Which means you will have to wave dash or jump.
Sheik is invulnerable throughout the entire duration and leaves you NO chance to grab the edge.

Being invincible =/= no chance to grab the ledge. There is more than enough time to grab the ledge during Shiek's up B startup, forcing her onto the stage where she's very vulnerable. You go to the ledge facing backwards and shield, then you look at the stalling pattern and time a wavedash OoS to grab the ledge. Only thing she can really do is try to fair you when she thinks you're gonna wavedash. If she guesses right you get faired, if she guesses wrong her stall stops and she eats a lot more than a fair <_<.

Ganon's stalling is harder to stop directly because his stall is faster, you still do have time to grab the ledge. He can stop you by uairing you and then up Bing to the ledge again, but if you predict that uair....Ganon dies (easy edgeguard after you shield it).

Ledge stalling in melee is certainly annoying, but it isn't unbeatable.

Not gonna comment on MK stalling because I don't play brawl.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Being invincible =/= no chance to grab the ledge. There is more than enough time to grab the ledge during Shiek's up B startup, forcing her onto the stage where she's very vulnerable.

Frame data=objective.
You have absolutely NO chance to grab the ledge when it is done correctly.
It is simple as that.

She is invincible while performing the ^B and any attempt to try to force her off results in YOU being punished.

Ganon's stalling is harder to stop directly because his stall is faster, you still do have time to grab the ledge. He can stop you by uairing you and then up Bing to the ledge again, but if you predict that uair....Ganon dies (easy edgeguard after you shield it).

You cannot grab it.
Ledge snapping does not exist in melee and you must also be facing the ledge. So no, you cannot stop it.

Frame data wise. You just do NOT have enough time.
Ganon does not have to Uar you. He can just keep grabbing the ledge while remaining completely invincible.

The mechanics in melee allow you to retain invincibility even after you let go of the ledge.
Otherwise, it would NOT be banned.
It is stalling because your opponent CANNOT punish you.
Frame data supports this, why are you even arguing?

Ledge stalling in melee is certainly annoying, but it isn't unbeatable.

ledge stalling with Sheik and Ganon are unbeatable when done correctly.

Not gonna comment on MK stalling because I don't play brawl.

6 frames of vulnerability.
good luck.

 

[St. Viers]

@shadowlink: you are wrong. Even if the shiek is shino stalling perfectly, you can still WD-> FF while she is disappearing to grab the ledge from her. Just because she is invincible doesn't mean you can't grab the ledge.

Also, there are several ways to grab the ledge while facing offstage initially. Everyone can (though it's hard) pivotwalk off the edge. The space animals can run off, and phantasm/upB. Yoshi can just double jump, shiek can do her upB tricks, Link can UpB cancel, and I'm sure there are more.

 

[Judo777]

Shadow link where is this frame data u keep bringing up?

The melee one that is i have read dmgs thread.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Frame data=objective.
You have absolutely NO chance to grab the ledge when it is done correctly.
It is simple as that.

She is invincible while performing the ^B and any attempt to try to force her off results in YOU being punished.

Vanish

Total: 94
Hit: 36-42
Invincible: 18-55
The frame of choosing direction: 35
Landlag: 30
Landfallspeciallag: 4

She grabs the ledge after the explosion when Shino stalling, so that means it's no sooner than frame 36 (it's prbobably much later in reality, but since I don't know exactly when I'm gonna use the earliest possible for simplicity's sake)

Wavedashing takes no more than 18 frames for any character (8 frames is the longest jump, and all characters have 10 frames of special landfall lag during the airdodge).

So basically, as long as fast falling and grabbing the ledge doesn't take a full 18 frames (which is ridiculously long) then EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has the frame window needed to grab the ledge while Shiek is shino stalling. In fact, they have 18 frames extra! Those with longer wavedashes can start from further away from the ledge, but no character is unable to do it because of "not having time to do it."

Frame data wise. You just do NOT have enough time.

Just proved you wrong <_<

Ganon does not have to Uar you. He can just keep grabbing the ledge while remaining completely invincible.

I'll be back with more later <_<. Need Ganon ledgehop frame data.

The mechanics in melee allow you to retain invincibility even after you let go of the ledge.

That doesn't prevent another character from grabbing the ledge <_<

Otherwise, it would NOT be banned.

It isn't banned. No tournaments ban Shino stalling.

Frame data supports this, why are you even arguing?

Because you're wrong and the frame data does not support it <_<

6 frames of vulnerability.
good luck.

MK is a different issue because he has aerials that are safe to use off stage to cover his stalling <_<. You have time to grab the ledge for every ledge stall both in melee and in brawl. The difference is only the risk involved when doing so. Shiek and Ganon can hit you away if they think you're going to try to grab the edge, but they risk DEATH if they guess wrong. MK on the other hand (afaik) has extremely safe aerials to defend his ledge, and also has a good enough recovery to simply recover around the opponent if the ledge is taken.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Vanish

Total: 94
Hit: 36-42
Invincible: 18-55
The frame of choosing direction: 35
Landlag: 30
Landfallspeciallag: 4

She grabs the ledge after the explosion when Shino stalling, so that means it's no sooner than frame 36 (it's prbobably much later in reality, but since I don't know exactly when I'm gonna use the earliest possible for simplicity's sake)

Wavedashing takes no more than 18 frames for any character (8 frames is the longest jump, and all characters have 10 frames of special landfall lag during the airdodge).

So basically, as long as fast falling and grabbing the ledge doesn't take a full 18 frames (which is ridiculously long) then EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has the frame window needed to grab the ledge while Shiek is shino stalling. Those with longer wavedashes can start from further away from the ledge, but no character is unable to do it because of "not having time to do it."

Just proved you wrong <_<

Um no. not really.

The fastest wavedash belongs to Fox since he jumps on Frame 4.
Frame 5 he air dodges.
Frame 6 he is wavedashing
Frame 7 he falls of the ledge (presuming you were at the very, very, very edge when you wavedashed.)

I am unsure of how long it takes Fox to fall from the ledge and then how long it takes to Snap onto it.
i believe at most it toook 4 frames for Fox to fall and grab the ledge.
I am unsure about the ledge snap data.
Now at best, we are looking at around 20 or so frames in which you have thusly grabbed the ledge assuming perfectly gameplay fort he opponent (since for Sheik's stall its only muscle memory).

Let us then presume human reaction time which is of a minimum of 10 frames at high levels of play.

So now you are actually grabbing the ledge at around frame 30+.
Sheik can ap the ground with her up B i believe on frame 37.
Factor in the 4 frames of lag she is vulnerable until frame 41.

Let us then factor the opponent's reaction (which is to ledgehop and punish).
And then it starts to look a bit grim.

All your are accounting for is simply grabbing the ledge.
You ignore human response time and you ignore the options that lay before Sheik. (hence why MK is so **** powerful when he planks).

At this point, you either grab the ledge (which will result in Sheik running to the other ledge and repeating).
Or you let Sheik be.

That assumes that the person playing has peak human reaction time and will perform all the actions required PERFECTLY.

So no, I doubt you disproved me.

I'll be back with more later <_<. Need Ganon ledgehop frame data.

KK
<_<

That doesn't prevent another character from grabbing the ledge <_<

Account for wavedashing (minimum of 7 frames).
Count the frames it takes to drop and then grab the ledge itself.
It prevents you from hitting Ganondorf (since you would be attacking BEFORE he regrabs it rather than relying on a slower method which is to grab the ledge.)

It isn't banned. No tournaments ban Shino stalling.

It is not explicitly stated.
much like wobbling or wave shining to 300%, it is probably categorized under stalling.
Stalling in itself makes you invulnerable or nigh impossible to harm.
Wobbling and wave shining to 300% fall under stalling.
Wobbling and wave shining are not banned however, just the stalling component.

Because you're wrong and the frame data does not support it <_<

I would disagree due to my replies above.
unless of course you can magically fall off, grab the stage all within 1 frame.
In perfect land.

MK is a different issue because he has aerials that are safe to use off stage to cover his stalling <_<. You have time to grab the ledge for every ledge stall both in melee and in brawl. The difference is only the risk involved when doing so. Shiek and Ganon can hit you away if they think you're going to try to grab the edge, but they risk DEATH if they guess wrong. MK on the other hand (afaik) has extremely safe aerials to defend his ledge, and also has a good enough recovery to simply recover around the opponent if the ledge is taken.

MK doesn't remain invincible when he lets go.
You don't retain invincibility once you release it.
6 frames is the minimum for when he is completely vulnerable.
Edit: You also ahve to realize that your opponent willalso be stuck on the ledge LONGER than they would be in melee.
While in melee you snap on slower, you could let go of the ledge MCH more quickly.
in brawl you are on the ledge for a certain amount of time.
For MK, his Uair hits on frame2, so even if you try to hover near the ledge to snap onto it, you'll be smacked of BEFORE you even grab the ledge.

All you have is roughly 6 frames of vulnerability on MK's part which is between the Uair's.

If MK had hte typical two jumps and at LEAST his up B. (no glide). He would STILL be untouchable because he can just run to the next ledge and repeat.

@shadowlink: you are wrong. Even if the shiek is shino stalling perfectly, you can still WD-> FF while she is disappearing to grab the ledge from her. Just because she is invincible doesn't mean you can't grab the ledge.

Also, there are several ways to grab the ledge while facing offstage initially. Everyone can (though it's hard) pivotwalk off the edge. The space animals can run off, and phantasm/upB. Yoshi can just double jump, shiek can do her upB tricks, Link can UpB cancel, and I'm sure there are more.

I spoke in regards to wavedashing.
Even if you manage to doe verything absolutely perfect and grab the ledge before she snaps back onto it, what is to prevent her from simplying to the other ledge.
O factor into account that human beings are not robots (except m2k) and that Sheik does NOT have to worry about being frame perfect since it relies on muscle memory to perform.

Isn't pivotwalking slower as is the phantasm/over B?

I am quite sure its banned. If I am wrong hey, I wont mind being corrected.

Shadow link where is this frame data u keep bringing up?

The melee one that is i have read dmgs thread.

Alot of it is memorized.
You can typically retrieve it from the melee threas which have the character frame data.
So you have to kind of, piece it together.

Edit: I also demand it be called NINPO stalling. <_<

 

[Turbo Ether]

When is MK vulnerable for six frames, during his planking?

 

[St. Viers]

Re: stealing the ledge.
1. Fox jumps on frame 2. Most characters jump on frame 4.
2. It is not hard to find the pattern, and after while wd->ff is also just muscle memory
3. Even given your calculations, you have 7 frame window of error as the person grabbing the edge.

Re: punishing the sheik after landing:
1. She has much more than 4 frames of landing lag from her up B. The only way that she doesn't involves landing from very high--higher than is possible from a ledgehop, and high enough to easily punish from on the ledge.

@Turbo Ether==halfway through his second u-air.

 

[fkacyan]

When is MK vulnerable for six frames, during his planking?

During the second upair.

 

[Dark Sonic]

At this point, you either grab the ledge (which will result in Sheik running to the other ledge and repeating).
Or you let Sheik be.

Landlag: 30

You forgot something. That's why Sheik's recovery is bad remember?

That assumes that the person playing has peak human reaction time and will perform all the actions required PERFECTLY.

Why are we factoring reaction time on an infinite stall? The stall itself follows an easily recognizable pattern, so there is no reason that I can't be using those 10 frames as I'M NOT REACTING TO THEM. So that also means that I don't have to be perfect. Considering I've got 10 extra frames to play around with, in addition to whatever frames the Sheik player gives me from not doing the stall frame perfectly.

KK
<_<

This might actually take a while, since I don't have AR or a dolphin emulator. Though if "earliest fast fall after a second jump" means anything

2nd jump earliest FF: 20

I assume frame 20 would be the peak of his jump, which is the earliest that a ledge can be grabbed (as you cannot grab a ledge while rising.)

Account for wavedashing (minimum of 7 frames).
Count the frames it takes to drop and then grab the ledge itself.
It prevents you from hitting Ganondorf (since you would be attacking BEFORE he regrabs it rather than relying on a slower method which is to grab the ledge.)

He does have 20 frames+the time it takes him to drop to one double jump's length below the ledge where he's not occupying the ledge though, meaning it should be feasible to grab the ledge before him.

And don't forget that the wavedash CAN be started early.
Bolded is irrelevant.

It is not explicitly stated.
much like wobbling or wave shining to 300%, it is probably categorized under stalling.
Stalling in itself makes you invulnerable or nigh impossible to harm.
Wobbling and wave shining to 300% fall under stalling.
Wobbling and wave shining are not banned however, just the stalling component.

Care to define stalling for me? afaik as long as you can still hit the opponent, or if you can force the opponent out of that situation tremendous risk, it is not stalling. And to me, getting hit by Sheik's up B because of mistiming a wavedash edgehog does not fall under "tremendous risk" <_<

I would disagree due to my replies above.
unless of course you can magically fall off, grab the stage all within 1 frame.
In perfect land.

Actually, Marth can grab it in 7 <_<

MK snip

Which is why I don't want to comment on brawl in depth, since I don't know much about how MK stalls.

snaps back onto it, what is to prevent her from simplying to the other ledge?

Landlag: 30

uh....that?

O factor into account that human beings are not robots (except m2k) and that Sheik does NOT have to worry about being frame perfect since it relies on muscle memory to perform.

And you don't have to worry about being frame perfect since it doesn't have to rely on reaction time. The wavedash can be started in unison with the stall, or even started earlier (though if you start TOO early you risk your opponent reacting to it). And if you crouch facing backwards instead of standing you can even disguise the initial jump frames of the wavedash (meaning less for your opponent to be able to react to) if you really want to start it early.


So while the stall is indeed invincible, it does not prevent the opponent from grabbing the ledge safely (all of this being predictable, but not punishable on reaction). And if you grab the ledge, the stall cannot continue. Sheik is forced to up B onto the stage and suffer her 30 frames of landing lag (special land lag happens if she falls from a certain height. I'm not sure how high that needs to be though. It's higher than she can go from the ledge in any case).

Ganondorf simply falls (if he jumped high enough to make it onto the stage then he's not stalling correctly and can be hit on his way down)

Honestly, I'm much more afraid of Fox and Falco's stalls. Maybe I'll look up some data on those some time

Isn't pivotwalking slower as is the phantasm/over B?

Yeah, don't know why he brought that up. Though I guess technically you can pivot at the edge and then your character will fall off (but that's one of those things that can't be done consistently enough to matter)

I am quite sure its banned. If I am wrong hey, I wont mind being corrected.

It isn't banned which is why I brought it up. It is certainly hard to stop. And I bet if we really dig deep into frame data we'll find that it might border on unreasonable, but it is not banned.

I'll look into these stalls more on my own time though.

btw interesting tidbit.

In melee Marth can't grab the ledge until 12 frames AFTER his up B finishes. That means that no matter how well Marth sweetspots, you'll always have at least 12 frames to steal the ledge from him. That explains how lightshield edgehogging works. Every character can lightshield edgehog him if they fast fall after they get pushed off the stage.

 

[St. Viers]

@Dark Sonic:
I was simply correcting his statement that you had to be facing towards the stage to grab the ledge.

Also, As the fire of charging Falco's upB doesn't damage, it is possible to grab the ledge from him (iirc), though with fox, the hitbox pushes you away/puts you in enough lag that you can't (or at least not as easily) though both are much harder to grab the ledge against that shiek/ganon. I have no clue about their phantasm, though again, there is less of a window than against shiek/ganon.

 

[fkacyan]

Forgive me, but I fail to see the relevance of going in-depth on planking in Melee. Seems to be a thread for the Melee boards, no?

I recommend, and request, this thread be locked, actually. As fun as it is for us all to postcount+1 in here, discussion has stagnated and gone in circles for at least fifty, if not more pages, and everything useful to be said has already been said.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Can the BBR say ANYTHING? It's like every BBR member has left this thread (or at least abandoned serious discussion in it).

 

[fkacyan]

Can the BBR say ANYTHING? It's like every BBR member has left this thread (or at least abandoned serious discussion in it).

From what I can gather based on vague IMs and some posts here, the discussion there is fairly heated and fast-paced.

 

[Flayl]

What the **** Shadowlink, what the ****

At least do some research when somebody tells you you're wrong instead of denying it over and over again. God****.

 

[solecalibur]

Forgive me, but I fail to see the relevance of going in-depth on planking in Melee. Seems to be a thread for the Melee boards, no?

I recommend, and request, this thread be locked, actually. As fun as it is for us all to postcount+1 in here, discussion has stagnated and gone in circles for at least fifty, if not more pages, and everything useful to be said has already been said.

Seriously? We are comparing Melee's planking and how its compared to Brawl's planking and how it was BANNED , I also lol at your desperate attempt to close this thread like most of anti-ban without even providing a REAL argument

 

[OverLade]

Didn't DMG make a nice convenient thread about planking?

And timing people out in Melee outside of planking is almost impossible, which is why people don't plank. If planking was even partially banned it wouldn't matter because one mistake in Melee means you could lose a stock anyway...

 

[etecoon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHfpw-NJyfw

there is a little planking but it is possible <_<

 

[adumbrodeus]

Can the BBR say ANYTHING? It's like every BBR member has left this thread (or at least abandoned serious discussion in it).

SL seems pretty active and I pop in all the time, regardless, what do you want us to say?


Proper planking is literally invincible? Yeah, it's been acknowledged.


What we're doing about MK? I can't even reveal if we've made a decision at the moment.

Whether or not MLG is gonna ban MK? Again, can't even reveal if they've released that info to the BBR.


That I personally would love an excuse to ban MK? Ok, you've got that.



Believe me, if this thread isn't being responded to, it's on most of our watchlists. That said, I don't see how's there's that much to add at the moment.


Unfortunately, since there's no uniform criteria, we're left with the problem of basically deciding if he fits the ban criteria for 2/3rds of the community, and while Crow's data is useful, if people don't believe that a character that fits that is banworthy, then there's nothing that can be done.

What the **** Shadowlink, what the ****

At least do some research when somebody tells you you're wrong instead of denying it over and over again. God****.

He generally does, I'm a little surprised they haven't just presented exact frame data and been done with it.

 

[hotgarbage]

Unfortunately, since there's no uniform criteria, we're left with the problem of basically deciding if he fits the ban criteria for 2/3rds of the community, and while Crow's data is useful, if people don't believe that a character that fits that is banworthy, then there's nothing that can be done.

Very true! Which is why embrace the reality (i.e. the subjective nature) of the situation and do a targeted poll!!

*continues to dream*


Back to reality, I imagine that the same thing applies to this planking situation. If one wants MK in the game the fact that an ideal, discreet way of banning broken planking does not exist probably isn't going to bother them too much, and thus not sway their position.

 

[GwJ]

Just saying, you can't factor in human reaction time with stopping sheik's stall. You can predict it, it doesn't change.