I'd plank for $250.
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Official Metaknight Discussion
- Thread starter Hylian
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MarKO X
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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230481
edit: well, it's obvious that people actually play to win (aka plank with MK and punching people in the face) for this incredible amount of money as opposed to pussyfooting with their standard low or mid tier characters.
good luck.
Iliad
Smash Lord
SSBMK, amirite?
10amiritesaboutbrawlmetagameturningintonothingbutmetaknightdittos
10amiritesaboutbrawlmetagameturningintonothingbutmetaknightdittos
Anth0ny
Smash Master
ledge grab rule should be enforced for MLG.
if not, enjoy epic stallfests. epic stallfests leads to teh boring.
teh boring leads to lower attendance.
lower attendance leads to NO BRAWL AT MLG NEXT YEAR.
if not, enjoy epic stallfests. epic stallfests leads to teh boring.
teh boring leads to lower attendance.
lower attendance leads to NO BRAWL AT MLG NEXT YEAR.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
How is competitive pokemon bad?
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^If MK isn't banned by MLG, he sure as hell will be afterwards...
Anth0ny
Smash Master
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
There's a reason it's no longer in the ruleset.
Delvro
Smash Ace
This guy is thinking like a winner
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Not so sure about that actually, Metaknight is one of the best characters at stopping Planking due to his huge amountof options.
Of course it isn't easy, but considering his range, mobility in the air, multiple jumps. It isn't unlikely for the two MK's just to fight each other regularly seeing as how they can deal with each other's planking. (or at least I hope so)
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
You heard it here first. Planking is a non-issue because it's balanced amongst the viable character!
(jk <3 sl)
MarKO X
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did you read the thread about how MK can just ledge drop > downB sweetspot > repeat?
and how that's invincible?
apparently, MK ***** himself. and I'm willing to bet that he can beat Ivan Ooze now.
and how that's invincible?
apparently, MK ***** himself. and I'm willing to bet that he can beat Ivan Ooze now.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Pointless discussion is pointless...
Can someone explain this joke to me?
Can someone explain this joke to me?
theunabletable
Smash Lord
The ruleset DOES suggest a stalling rule.
You know you can grab the edge when he DCs.
Judo777
Smash Master
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Yes and when he see u do that he can go diagonal onto the stage and guess what now ur offstage against MK gg
C~Dog
Smash Champion
MLG is going to end with every player coming equal first; every match both players are MK planking from 0% > time, resulting in an endless succession of draws.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Yes. Some form of rule against stalling. But your comparison of the rising pound ban to planking is really not viable.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
DMGs the only one who really gave a viable argument against the rising pound thing.
No Melee and Brawl aren't identical games, but they're similar and if Melee can have a healthy metagame because of a subjective rule (Brawl's ruleset has subjective rules, anyway), then I really don't see what about them is SO completely different that a subjective rule that would work the same way can't work for Brawl.
But it doesn't matter, DMG disproved my rising pound argument, anyways.
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i'm pretty sure ankoku also stated that there's been no (or VERY little) instances of rising pound even being used in a match to turn the tide or win, so obviously the subjective rule isn't gonna matter much when there's nothing to inforce it on.
Is planking ever used? like ever?
like is it ever even attempted?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267201
like is it ever even attempted?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267201
HeroMystic
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Where have YOU been?
Look up M2K Pound 4 videos and you'll see plenty of planking. Reason why it isn't shown alot is because of the ledge-grab-limit and people don't bother to record videos of it.
And of course there's that Gentlemen's rule thing...
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KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Needs lasers on its head.
@the proban side:
At this moment, why is there such strong resistance by you guys to a LGL rather than a straight out MK ban? Yes, it's a "surgical change" but it is one that creates a character that while the best, is nowhere near unbeatable. In addition, it stops other characters that *can* plank to their advantage (even if not as well as MK) from acting in that was as well.''
Because no one has said why, I'll run though a list of assumed reasons, based of people's posts in here:
1. He's still the best character.
Most fighting games have a best character. Sagat in SSF4. ChunLi in 3S, and the list goes on. Just because he's the best does *not* mean that he should be banned, especially when he is unable to plank/scrooge because of a lgl. I know this is a subjective matter, but I think it would be hard to convince anyone outside of the most fanatic pro-banners that he should be banned before seeing how he fares w/ LGL being a universal tourney rule (not just at a few tourneys), and endorsed by the BBR.
2. LGL and other anti-stalling rules are subjective.
There is nothing inherently wrong with something being subjective. Yeah, 30 or whatever *is* an arbitrary number, but so is disallowing chaingrabs from going above 300%--yet no one has a problem w/ that rule. In fact, if one were to gather data from tournament play looking at MKs that don't excessively plank, one could get a "subjective" number for a LGL that was based off of how many ledge grabs occur in normal games.
3. But banning MK would be better for the community!
There is no evidence to support banning MK would do anything but lose us members, while limiting him would keep the people playing MK, as well as perhaps encouraging people to rejoin the community.
If anyone wants to answer why banning MK is better than a LGL, I'll try and respond.
My personal opinion is that until we see how he plays w/ a LGL, there is no reason to ban him. If we are worried about what the MLG ruleset is going to be, it's would be better for the publicity of the game if all the characters were playable, and there was a LGL than if one of the most popular characters was banned.
At this moment, why is there such strong resistance by you guys to a LGL rather than a straight out MK ban? Yes, it's a "surgical change" but it is one that creates a character that while the best, is nowhere near unbeatable. In addition, it stops other characters that *can* plank to their advantage (even if not as well as MK) from acting in that was as well.''
Because no one has said why, I'll run though a list of assumed reasons, based of people's posts in here:
1. He's still the best character.
Most fighting games have a best character. Sagat in SSF4. ChunLi in 3S, and the list goes on. Just because he's the best does *not* mean that he should be banned, especially when he is unable to plank/scrooge because of a lgl. I know this is a subjective matter, but I think it would be hard to convince anyone outside of the most fanatic pro-banners that he should be banned before seeing how he fares w/ LGL being a universal tourney rule (not just at a few tourneys), and endorsed by the BBR.
2. LGL and other anti-stalling rules are subjective.
There is nothing inherently wrong with something being subjective. Yeah, 30 or whatever *is* an arbitrary number, but so is disallowing chaingrabs from going above 300%--yet no one has a problem w/ that rule. In fact, if one were to gather data from tournament play looking at MKs that don't excessively plank, one could get a "subjective" number for a LGL that was based off of how many ledge grabs occur in normal games.
3. But banning MK would be better for the community!
There is no evidence to support banning MK would do anything but lose us members, while limiting him would keep the people playing MK, as well as perhaps encouraging people to rejoin the community.
If anyone wants to answer why banning MK is better than a LGL, I'll try and respond.
My personal opinion is that until we see how he plays w/ a LGL, there is no reason to ban him. If we are worried about what the MLG ruleset is going to be, it's would be better for the publicity of the game if all the characters were playable, and there was a LGL than if one of the most popular characters was banned.
Most places already have a LGL. MK can still play the edge for the majority of the match, especially when used with air camping. Then you get into Scrooging...Seems like LGLs have failed, which leads to another reason that LGLs don't fix the problem (Unless we come up with something that fixes the problem that can be objectively enforced, it will remain a problem). Any other suggestions?
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
1. Sagat is only SLIGHTLY better, BARELY appears in winners finals, isn't nearly as dominating, and is in no way comparable to Metaknight at all.
Chun Li is the 2nd best, Yun is the best.
Its not that subjective. Have you seen any of the data that has been presented in this thread to show his dominance? I don't believe you have.
2. The LGL ALSO applies to situations outside of planking, potentially DQing someone if set too low, and if set high enough to avoid that, if allows the person to still plank, just for a different time frame and more conservatively.
The chain grab is different, it ONLY applies to a chain grab, and it can be easily inforced and isn't attempt to ban a particular behavoir but instead define a particular behavior, limit it, and call anything past that limit stalling. The LGL is not attempting this but to ban a technique all together that you can not ban with a LGL without effecting the game as a whole as the action being limited applies to the entire game.
Chun Li is the 2nd best, Yun is the best.
Its not that subjective. Have you seen any of the data that has been presented in this thread to show his dominance? I don't believe you have.
2. The LGL ALSO applies to situations outside of planking, potentially DQing someone if set too low, and if set high enough to avoid that, if allows the person to still plank, just for a different time frame and more conservatively.
The chain grab is different, it ONLY applies to a chain grab, and it can be easily inforced and isn't attempt to ban a particular behavoir but instead define a particular behavior, limit it, and call anything past that limit stalling. The LGL is not attempting this but to ban a technique all together that you can not ban with a LGL without effecting the game as a whole as the action being limited applies to the entire game.
1. Ah, I was into 3s too long ago, and basing my comparison to the pre 2005 chart, where Yun and chunli had the same +32, but chunli's was more 6's and 8's, whereas yun had more 7's. I see Chunli as MK in that situation, an Yun as Snake. The point still stands that other games have characters that are on paper much better than the rest. As you said, however, they don't end up winning everything. Also, I was not calling MK's dominance subjective, and I apologize if it came across that way. I was claiming that the opinions on whether (without being able to plank and scrooge excessively) he was still "too much better" or not were subjective.
2. Except that by picking a LGL based off of the data for how many times the ledge is grabbing in a non-planking match, you can greatly reduce the chances of that happening. I fail to see any realistic case where someone gets DQed off a LGL that is set up to prevent planking. (It would have to be someone who either stays on the edge of the stage, and runs off when someone approaches, or someone who gets hit off *alot* and always recovers to the ledge rather than the stage. With a ledgegrab limit in place, they would know in advance that both tactics could cause them to be DQed.
Also, the LGL follows the same course as the chaingrab limit. It only prevents excessive ledgegrabbing (regardless of how exactly it happens). So it defines the behavior (excessive grabbing of the ledge), limit it (to whatever number is found to be closest to the average in non planking matches), and call any grabs over that limit excessive stalling. The only difference is that the ledgegrab limit covers planking, circle camping, and excessive ledgeplay beyondd that. It doesn't really matter why they get over that number, it that number is the defining call of "more that this is excessive stalling," just as "chaingrabbing past 300% is excessive stalling."
I would like to see someone try to plank/scrooge for most of the match only being able to grab the edge the number of times they would w/o planking. Air camping can be dealt w/ much easier than planking, given how aerial "priority" works. Also, I'd like to see data on what tourneys have/had LGL rules, and then compared to how strictly said rules were enforced and how MK players did.
Also, to be clear, scrooging is the act of flying under the stage, right? Either they would have to grab the ledge, or Reverse Up B unto the stage, right? One way adds to the LG count, and the other is punishable. If they keep going back and forth under the stage, w/o grabbing a ledge or landing on the stage, that is an obvious example of stalling, and you can call over a tourney judge.
EDIT: regarding 3s, chunli *is* consideref the best character now, with +33, where Yun is only +31. Again, it's because she has 7's and 8's where Yun has more 6s...
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I'm Seibrik, I mean DDD, you are Afro, I mean Snake. I chain grab you to the ledge and spend the next minute and a half keeping you on the edge, punishing your every attempt to get back on stage, not killing or gimping you, just keeping you off stage until you finally die with your Snake weight and DI. Could say the same situation about Marth versus D3, the matchup plays (if all goes according to D3s plan) in this manner. The ledge grab limit set at 30 could potentially allow the D3 to win the match by DQing his opponent by preforming this only a few times a match. Then you also have to take into account the many other matches versus characters where similar situations happen, as well as punishing characters who are not planking and can not truly abuse planking but have amazing off stage game and limiting them, all to stop Metaknight from planking.
Secondly, flying under the stage a few times a match is not actually considered stalling. Just ask Meep. Metaknight, on Smashville, could plank and air plank without ever reaching the 30 ledge grab limit, rather easily, thanks to the floating platform, ease of flying underneath, and length of the stage. Metaknight doesn't need to grab the ledge every second to truly abuse planking.
THen you aren't really stopping planking, you are only saying "plank only this much." If I can't plank for 30, I'll plank for 29. etc. etc. So, either you set it so low you interfere with the entire game, punishing people for playing a good off stage game, punishing people for getting stuck on the edge against an opponent, punishing a player for edge hogging when combined with their other ledge grabs, etc. etc. The LGL is simply not an effective approach, as you either solve nothing, or mess up the entire game.
Its an arbitrary attempt to ban something that truly only applies to one character.
Secondly, flying under the stage a few times a match is not actually considered stalling. Just ask Meep. Metaknight, on Smashville, could plank and air plank without ever reaching the 30 ledge grab limit, rather easily, thanks to the floating platform, ease of flying underneath, and length of the stage. Metaknight doesn't need to grab the ledge every second to truly abuse planking.
THen you aren't really stopping planking, you are only saying "plank only this much." If I can't plank for 30, I'll plank for 29. etc. etc. So, either you set it so low you interfere with the entire game, punishing people for playing a good off stage game, punishing people for getting stuck on the edge against an opponent, punishing a player for edge hogging when combined with their other ledge grabs, etc. etc. The LGL is simply not an effective approach, as you either solve nothing, or mess up the entire game.
Its an arbitrary attempt to ban something that truly only applies to one character.
This is the problem. I said a rule that can be objectively enforced. And what if the tournament judge says that planking is allowed because they don't consider it an act of stalling (as in not being able to be hit), and the same goes for Scrooging? There shouldn't be this gray area before the match starts. That has always been a problem with giving TO's the responsibility of declaring what is legal/illegal after the fact.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
To continue on this, during Genesis, a player was accused of stalling, and was almost banned, but there was a lot of outrage over the fact because that version of stalling was not listed in their rule set directly and it was considered bias. Bans need to be direct and enforceable.
On the contrary, arguments like the one CRASHiC just made have been pulled out numerous times in this thread alone. Basically, you've brought up three strawmen against the LGL and shot them down, and you've failed to even acknowledge the argument that it doesn't work.
You see, the LGL actually originated as a compromise, people who wanted MK banned didn't think it would work, but went along with it. So technically, they already agreed to the LGL, and are sick and tired of solutions that don't solve anything.
Nanaki
Smash Lord
"Scrooging" is a dumb term for what M2K basically did to Meep and gnes on Smashville.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OztKYId64M
1:55 to 2:30 or so in that vid.
It's flying under the stage from the moving platform and landing back on the moving platform. No ledgegrab, no landing on the stage. It's not at all unbeatable, and you can't really call it stalling at all - he could techically just be jockeying for a favorable position to recover to the stage from (another issue with LGLs, as addressed by CrashiC above concerning the D3/Snake example).
You can end the 'scrooge' at any point and start planking, tornado back on, or just get an easy and free gimp when the opponent challenges you (as happened to Meep in that vid).
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