Official Metaknight Discussion

[GwJ]

It seems like the way this is going, if we WERE to have a temp ban, it would last for a season of MLG. TBH, I don't know if MLG does go by seasons, but if it does, that's how it would need to be. If there's not seasons, then this is a sticky matter. =/

 

[iRJi]

It seems like the way this is going, if we WERE to have a temp ban, it would last for a season of MLG. TBH, I don't know if MLG does go by seasons, but if it does, that's how it would need to be. If there's not seasons, then this is a sticky matter. =/

Yea, they go by seasons lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Would MLG go along with a temp ban idea?

 

[GwJ]

Like I said, if they do, it'd be a season long ban. It would mess up their results and would look unprofessional to have a temp ban mid-season.

 

[Kaffei]

Winning is fun.

MK mains win.

MK has the most fun.

He is overcentralizing on fun. Ban him.

Isn't this belief bias?

 

[etecoon]

Isn't this belief bias?

I think most people would say that winning is fun


granted in the case of brawl/using MK you have to do something that is annoying and mundane in order to win

but cash is fun

 

[Kaffei]

I think most people would say that winning is fun


granted in the case of brawl/using MK you have to do something that is annoying and mundane in order to win

but cash is fun

I mean about MK has the most fun

 

[Kasht]

But the question is WHY limit him from doing those things? Why work as hard as humanly possible to keep the character in the game through any means necessary to avoid a ban? I mean, I am ALL for trying new things, but it's kind of obvious that a lot of these rules are in place/suggested to take action of any kind, no matter how bad or stupid the rules are, JUST to keep MK in the game.


People are ready to pay any cost to have him stick around, which I think is stupid. If he's too good, just admit it, and get rid of him. If he is not too good, then leave him the hell alone. There are no "buts, ands, what ifs". It's not "Hey, this character is too good, BUT if we remove or limit all of this, YAY now he's not too good!" lol.

This man speaks the truth, nothing less, nothing more...

 

[Black Mantis]

Maybe we should see how things would fare without MK?

 

[kackamee]

Maybe we should see how things would fare without MK?

Texas did it once. That's about it though.

 

[IrisKong]

Lets face it, MK should be banned, or at least temporarily to help advance other character metagames. But they wont ban him period, I cant believe this thread is still active.

 

[UltiMario]

The characters Metagames will hardly advance in a temp ban because
A. The metagame will be even weaker than it was BEFORE the ban right after the ban because they didn't have to deal with MK for so long
B. Its not the Metagames advancing as much as characters placing higher in tournies because MKs aren't hogging slots.

 

[DMG]

You could argue, however, that not having to focus so strongly on trying to beat MK would give characters the chance to focus on beating another character. I don't like that argument so much, simply because generally you should be focusing on trying to beat the top tier anyways (why slack off on trying to beat characters who are gonna be the strongest and probably most common in tournament?).

 

[Black Mantis]

Texas did it once. That's about it though.

Doesn't South Carolina do it too?

 

[Asdioh]

Good, now harras Overswarm to get that technique out

wtf are you talking about?

That canceling the dash into a move tech?

Great, I wanna see how many more characters Ike can CG with his Bthrow.

what?


HLEP

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But the question is WHY limit him from doing those things? Why work as hard as humanly possible to keep the character in the game through any means necessary to avoid a ban? I mean, I am ALL for trying new things, but it's kind of obvious that a lot of these rules are in place/suggested to take action of any kind, no matter how bad or stupid the rules are, JUST to keep MK in the game.

People are ready to pay any cost to have him stick around, which I think is stupid. If he's too good, just admit it, and get rid of him. If he is not too good, then leave him the hell alone. There are no "buts, ands, what ifs". It's not "Hey, this character is too good, BUT if we remove or limit all of this, YAY now he's not too good!" lol.

I have been saying this for pages and people just yell at me.

 

[Nanaki]

wtf are you talking about?


what?


HLEP

There's no thread to quote, so I'll do the best I can for now.

Basically, I understand it to be a reverting of the stick to a neutral position during a dash animation, which then allows you to do any move while you continue to move a short distance (relative to your initial dash speed? I'm not sure). Characters with fast, long initial dashes can add pretty large range to most ground moves this way. MK happens to have a very fast initial dash animation. Snake's is slow and crappy, etc.

I have no idea if that's right or not, but that's how I remember it sounding.

Edit- @SFP: Your avi scares the piss out of me every time I look at it. It's like looking at a clown.

...****ing clowns.

 

[kackamee]

Doesn't South Carolina do it too?

Yeah, but we are so small it doesn't count for much T.T

More people should come to SC.

And people should go to NC for HERB3. Check out mah sig.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Or a ******

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, temporary ban, if it ever happens, will be for gathering data, camparing the MK banned metagame to what we have now. Having MK gone won't help develop the other characters' metagames metagame in a way that will assist them in an MK banned enviroment because they'll just concentrate on MUs that aren't as useful in an MK unbanned environment.

 

[IrisKong]

To the guy who said metagames wouldnt prosper. several characters arent played much if at all (aka no meta progression) only because ok MK. Why bother playing a character that has a 80/20 MU against one of if not the most played character in the game, ya know?
Its stupid to argue this, its not going to change, which Is why I posted saying its funy that this thread is still active.

 

[Kaffei]

Ok, temporary ban, if it ever happens, will be for gathering data, camparing the MK banned metagame to what we have now. Having MK gone won't help develop the other characters' metagames metagame in a way that will assist them in an MK banned enviroment because they'll just concentrate on MUs that aren't as useful in an MK unbanned environment.

So let me get this straight.. Even if the SBR bans Meta Knight, there will still be several tournaments where Meta Knight is legal?

To the guy who said metagames wouldnt prosper. several characters arent played much if at all (aka no meta progression) only because ok MK. Why bother playing a character that has a 80/20 MU against one of if not the most played character in the game, ya know?
Its stupid to argue this, its not going to change, which Is why I posted saying its funy that this thread is still active.

Yeah but look at the recent results from Indianapolis and VC7... There doesn't seem to be that many MKs and M2K didn't place 1st in either. I know those are just two weak(?) comparisons but maybe we'll see something promising.

inb4 we have been waiting for 2 years already

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Well Omni has made a group which I think is intended to make a group of TOs that will still host MK-allowed tourneys despite what the BBR does.

I looked at the group a little while ago and that's what I assumed the purpose of the group is. Omni, can you you offer any response to this? I know you feel like you're getting mis-represented here so if I'm wrong please correct me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So let me get this straight.. Even if the SBR bans Meta Knight, there will still be several tournaments where Meta Knight is legal?

How'd you get that, if there's a temp ban there's a temp ban.


However, I'm just pointing out that the reason is for comparison of metagames, NOT to allow metagames to advance, because it won't help that much.

Well Omni has made a group which I think is intended to make a group of TOs that will still host MK-allowed tourneys despite what the BBR does.

I looked at the group a little while ago and that's what I assumed the purpose of the group is. Omni, can you you offer any response to this? I know you feel like you're getting mis-represented here so if I'm wrong people correct me.

Omni isn't here anymore so I'll explain.


It's called politics, he's trying to show that he has significant support and use that to establish that the SBR should not ban MK, pretty much exactly what OS is trying to do with his "TOs willing to ban MK list".

 

[Kaffei]

How'd you get that, if there's a temp ban there's a temp ban.


However, I'm just pointing out that the reason is for comparison of metagames, NOT to allow metagames to advance, because it won't help that much.

Oh, I see.

But what if there was a permanent ban implemented? Would there still be several MK legal tournaments or would they cease to exist?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh, I see.

But what if there was a permanent ban implemented? Would there still be several MK legal tournaments or would they cease to exist?

Well, understand this, the fact is that we do not dictate the community, we only recommend.


My chief concern about this process is the strong possibility that the community will not form around the result, and they'll be a major split.


So long story short, in the best case scenario, for at least a while it is extremely likely that there will be at least a few unbanned tournaments, just as if the SBR decides to not ban MK (without the lines, "but we are gonna revisit the issue) the reverse will happen.


We can only hope that for the sake of community unity, the losing side will choose to eventually follow the community decision.

 

[CRASHiC]

whoa adum got in the BBR. I wondered who that was posting in the Debate hall with a purple name xD.

At any rate, there might be small tournies that will host Metaknight allowed tournies, side tournies most likely. Not out of spite but out of fun. There are similar things in other games, they aren't taken super seriously but are a fun side event.

 

[Kaffei]

Well, understand this, the fact is that we do not dictate the community, we only recommend.


My chief concern about this process is the strong possibility that the community will not form around the result, and they'll be a major split.


So long story short, in the best case scenario, for at least a while it is extremely likely that there will be at least a few unbanned tournaments, just as if the SBR decides to not ban MK (without the lines, "but we are gonna revisit the issue) the reverse will happen.


We can only hope that for the sake of community unity, the losing side will choose to eventually follow the community decision.

That doesn't sound very promising.

 

[IrisKong]

So let me get this straight.. Even if the SBR bans Meta Knight, there will still be several tournaments where Meta Knight is legal?



Yeah but look at the recent results from Indianapolis and VC7... There doesn't seem to be that many MKs and M2K didn't place 1st in either. I know those are just two weak(?) comparisons but maybe we'll see something promising.

inb4 we have been waiting for 2 years already

Wanna do the tournament thing as a justification will result in fail both ways. but ill bring up pound in saying ally and adhd were the only people in the top 10 that werent MK (the placing they got are irrelevant. they are THE best players in the scene currently, so obviously they place well). And the fact that m2k didnt win isnt reliable either, MK takes up the entire top 8 aside from when ally or adhd are there for the majority of big tournies.

god ****it why did i fall into this stupid argument again lol.

 

[Kaffei]

Wanna do the tournament thing as a justification will result in fail both ways. but ill bring up pound in saying ally and adhd were the only people in the top 10 that werent MK (the placing they got are irrelevant. they are THE best players in the scene currently, so obviously they place well). And the fact that m2k didnt win isnt reliable either, MK takes up the entire top 8 aside from when ally or adhd are there for the majority of big tournies.

god ****it why did i fall into this stupid argument again lol.

lmfao. Yeah I know all that. I'm just kind of.........hoping......... for......... something..?

 

[adumbrodeus]

whoa adum got in the BBR. I wondered who that was posting in the Debate hall with a purple name xD.

At any rate, there might be small tournies that will host Metaknight allowed tournies, side tournies most likely. Not out of spite but out of fun. There are similar things in other games, they aren't taken super seriously but are a fun side event.

Yea, debate hall got street cred lol


But honestly, it's gonna be more widespread and there will be more then a few, and I doubt it will be just side tournies, the issue is way too contentious. That's why I was posting doom and gloom stuff, I believe that it has reached past the critical point, and a full-scale community split is VERY possible.

That doesn't sound very promising.

Unfortunately, it isn't. Did you see my earlier posts on this issue, this worst case scenario, ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't.

 

[IrisKong]

the fact there there is a thread dedicated to this discussion should be reason enough to at least consider the idea.

 

[CRASHiC]

the fact there there is a thread dedicated to this discussion should be reason enough to at least consider the idea.

Seriously, that's the funniest pro-ban argument out there, its right up with the anti-ban argument "It will make us look bad to SRK."

 

[Kaffei]

Unfortunately, it isn't. Did you see my earlier posts on this issue, this worst case scenario, ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't.

I couldn't help but laugh at this statement; I didn't see your earlier post as I came in late with nothing to contribute

 

[salaboB]

Ok, temporary ban, if it ever happens, will be for gathering data, camparing the MK banned metagame to what we have now. Having MK gone won't help develop the other characters' metagames metagame in a way that will assist them in an MK banned enviroment because they'll just concentrate on MUs that aren't as useful in an MK unbanned environment.

Unless they discover a technique against another character that also will work against MK, but conditions against MK didn't lead to the scenario where it was discovered.

Of course, given how MK tends to be immune to many character specific traps due to his weight/size combo (Chain grabs, etc.) it is relatively likely that many like that won't work on him -- but I think saying the ones that will work on him won't be found if he's not present is relatively unsupported. Are there any techniques from tournament viable characters (grab release, etc.) that only work on MK and on no other tournament viable character?

It's most likely characters' metagames, including tactics that would prove useful against MK, would continue to develop even without him. (Might even develop faster as people try harder to drive their character up, rather than focusing all their energy into either learning how to play MK or being trapped in tunnel vision and trying to solely beat MK.)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Unless they discover a technique against another character that also will work against MK, but conditions against MK didn't lead to the scenario where it was discovered.

Of course, given how MK tends to be immune to many character specific traps due to his weight/size combo (Chain grabs, etc.) it is relatively likely that anything like that won't work on him -- but I think saying the ones that will work on him won't be found if he's not present is relatively unsupported. Are there any techniques from tournament viable characters (grab release, etc.) that only work on MK and on no other tournament viable character?

It's most likely characters' metagames, including tactics that would prove useful against MK, would continue to develop even without him. (Might even develop faster as people try harder to drive their character up, rather than focusing all their energy into either learning how to play MK or being trapped in tunnel vision and trying to solely beat MK.)

Because by definition your focus will be different then the characters you would face in that environment. Remember, it's not just techs, it about learning how to deal with MUs. In melee, I suck against Dr. Mario because I never play Docs, what do you think will happen to people when MK returns without the MU experience?

 

[•Col•]

Because by definition your focus will be different then the characters you would face in that environment. Remember, it's not just techs, it about learning how to deal with MUs. In melee, I suck against Dr. Mario because I never play Docs, what do you think will happen to people when MK returns without the MU experience?

I think the Metaknight mains would be just as rusty from not playing as their character... <_<

 

[salaboB]

In melee, I suck against Dr. Mario because I never play Docs, what do you think will happen to people when MK returns without the MU experience?

They'll learn the MU again. Fast.

Since any major tournament that was reintroducing MK would likely advertise that fact ahead of time as well, anyone serious would spend some time practicing and regain their anti-MK techniques.

Did you ever spend time fighting Dr. Mario, before stopping and letting your techniques slip? Or are you bad against him because you never had a way (Or reason, as appropriate) to get good against him in the first place?

Your point sounded more to me like new techniques wouldn't be found against MK (And I think practicing/MM's would test any new character techniques against him) though, not so much people forgetting how to fight. However I don't think that's really a major problem either.

 

[BSP]

I think the Metaknight mains would be just as rusty from not playing as their character... <_<

And, if we knew that MK would return, why wouldn't people continue to practice the matchup? If he gets temp banned, he goes for a while, but he comes back. MK mains would want to stay in shape, and others would not want to lose the MU experience.

Plus, even if a temp ban did occur, that doesn't mean that there will be no mk legal tournaments.

Semi ninja'd?

 

[Kaffei]

Maybe we should not let MK use the banana foot stool infinite on Diddy, but Diddy can use it on MK!