Official Metaknight Discussion

[CaptainEvilStomper9]

You should also consider (although you probably already have) that if more MK's are entering tournements the likely hood that they will do well increases. There isn't that many snake and diddy mains compared to MK.

I'm sure of all of us here can name many more MK players then snake and diddy players. I don't want to hear the "its because Allys that much better then everyone else" its not like Ally and ADHD select super omega king diddy and snake off the selection menu they are useing the same characters that everyone else is and they consistently beat even the best of MKs. Maybe if more people mained diddy and snake instead of MK there would be even more people that consistently beat every metaknight.

If everyone and there grandma didn't main Metaknight we'd see more even results but right now the majority of the top players main Metaknight. You could say its because hes the best but the way I see it is Ally and ADHD are the king of the mountain right now and theres WAY more MKs then snakes and diddy so the likely hood that a snake and diddy are the best players is a lot lower maybe Snake and Diddy are the best at top level. I also dont see Ally and ADHD loseing to any of there "bad matchups".

The main reason MK is under the ban microscope is because the character is overly popular. If he is the best it's not enough to be ban for if there are no metaknights that can beat the top 2 players (potentially more if everyone didn't main MK). If anything gets MK ban its going to be his popularity not his character.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I would shy away from making decisions based on this particular issue, there's a lot of hard feelings on this particular issue, and it's very easy to make a rash decision on this. I think that asking for a compiled argument is, furthermore, I think you gotta consider his motivations for getting people together, he was trying to force the issue to be resolved by convincing the BBR to decide in his favor, same as OS did.


Ultimately, I think that we're all too invested to consider any form of punitive action.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

You all do realize he's stalling so MK is allowed at MLG right?
/jk

Seriously, there's no point in trying to get him banned now since MLG picked up this game and is most likely going to extend the life of this game.

Basically, a time bonus for Brawl.

No use having conflicts with the rules used in MLG when the decision isn't final, right?

I think this thread should be locked or something until MLG's 2010 circuit is done.

 

[UltiMario]

You all do realize he's stalling so MK is allowed at MLG right?
/jk

Seriously, there's no point in trying to get him banned now since MLG picked up this game and is most likely going to extend the life of this game.

Basically, a time bonus for Brawl.

No use having conflicts with the rules used in MLG when the decision isn't final, right?

I think this thread should be locked or something until MLG's 2010 circuit is done.

This, most definately this.

 

[Throwback]

Fair point adumbrodeus, however if both sides do nothing (because they are too invested), 1 side wins by default. Therefore agreeing not to take action is the wrong option.

(i.e. whichever side wins should do it through debate/action, not because of inaction)

 

[laki]

I would shy away from making decisions based on this particular issue, there's a lot of hard feelings on this particular issue, and it's very easy to make a rash decision on this. I think that asking for a compiled argument is, furthermore, I think you gotta consider his motivations for getting people together, he was trying to force the issue to be resolved by convincing the BBR to decide in his favor, same as OS did.


Ultimately, I think that we're all too invested to consider any form of punitive action.

I think your post needs a little editing and as far as Omni being kicked or not (assuming that's what you're talking about) fact is he did advocate ignorning BBR policy.

Also I think Lee Haris got kicked from the back room during the first meta ban discussion if memory serves correct though with him it was from leaking SBR info. Meh.

Before the thread on smash back room policy, there seemed to be a growing community err...discontent with the BBR and Omni looks like a part of what could be causing that problem from my point of veiw.

 

[CRASHiC]

You all do realize he's stalling so MK is allowed at MLG right?
/jk

Seriously, there's no point in trying to get him banned now since MLG picked up this game and is most likely going to extend the life of this game.

Basically, a time bonus for Brawl.

No use having conflicts with the rules used in MLG when the decision isn't final, right?

I think this thread should be locked or something until MLG's 2010 circuit is done.

Its Evo all over again. . . .

but seriously, I think this is the time to discuss this, and make a community decision before MLG makes their rule set.

 

[Code Lyon]

Its Evo all over again. . . .

but seriously, I think this is the time to discuss this, and make a community decision before MLG makes their rule set.

This is the truth fam.

 

[fkacyan]

Anybody who says they want an outright ban is silly. There is absolutely no proof that banning MK would have any effect other than allowing current high tiers to win more.

A temp ban could be interesting. I have another idea in the same vein but I need to talk to some people first.

 

[_Keno_]

I having a feeling MK dominance will rise even more, now that more is on the line with MLG, moneywise.

 

[Code Lyon]

Temp bans won't cut it for MLG.....I think it's do or die time.

Edit: Cheap Peach has repeated my words XD

 

[_Keno_]

Temp bans won't cut it for MLG.....I think it's do or die time.

Cheap Peach has repeated my words XD

Maybe we should have another community vote, not to determine anything, but to show MLG what the community thinks.

And did you say that earlier? lol
Seems like it would happen, eh?

 

[Shaya]

UltiMario you are being misleading.
The percent cut off because of the use of a 6 man party/and a lot more pokemon is definitely not sound.

Garchomp was on 42% of all teams.
How much of that percentage was no.2 to number n?
You would have obvious overlaps. And that isnt right when Brawl does not require 6 character usages.

The burden of proof for MK being bannable shouldnt be LARGER than 42%, likely it should be lower. Our proof is also heavily constituted by those who WIN, not actual character usage across the entire game.

 

[Asdioh]

If MLG allows MK, Brawl will either

1. get more hype because of all the fancy highspeed epic combos the viewers see MK doing or
2. quickly become hated as they see MK after MK planking/stalling/PLAYING TO WIN etc.





Personally, I think (assuming MK is allowed) EVEN MORE people will pick him up because of the huge increases of money on the line at MLG.

But those are just my thoughts~

 

[CRASHiC]

The MLG rule list, whatever it contains, be it a metaknight ban, a strict ban on planking, or any of the sort, will determine the future of Brawl, if only for a short time.

 

[Shaya]

$60,000 will most likely show a lot of peoples true colours in relation to use of charactes.

 

[Espy Rose]

Adding onto Asdioh's post, not only would people possibly pick up MK because of the money on the line, but more of them would be more inclined to play to win.

If planking and scrooging, neither of which are banned in the official BBR ruleset, are also not banned in the MLG Circuit, we can expect those strategies abused constantly.

Unless people bring their own interests into the MLG Circuit with them.

Too many things to account for, really. Still, I'd expect an increase of Meta Knight usage for sure, with the possibility of scrooging/planking only if MLG's rule set doesn't ban them.

 

[UltiMario]

UltiMario you are being misleading.
The percent cut off because of the use of a 6 man party/and a lot more pokemon is definitely not sound.

Garchomp was on 42% of all teams.
How much of that percentage was no.2 to number n?
You would have obvious overlaps. And that isnt right when Brawl does not require 6 character usages.

The burden of proof for MK being bannable shouldnt be LARGER than 42%, likely it should be lower. Our proof is also heavily constituted by those who WIN, not actual character usage across the entire game.

MK has his dominance over 39 characters.
Chomp had his dominance with 5 times that many Pokemon which were usable, 9 times if you want to throw in all the NU Pokemon.

Also, Chomp being on your team is the equivalent of having one match in a 2/3 set automatically won for you. He could take out 2 Pokemon with ease, which is 1/3 of the team, or 1/3 of the games.
It ALSO was true that the gap between Chomp and Gengar (#2) was narrower than MK and Snake, but Gengar wasn't even close to be overcentralizing. The math all works out in the end.

Now lets get off this Pokemon discussion.

 

[Shaya]

MK has his dominance over 39 characters.
Chomp had his dominance with 5 times that many Pokemon which were usable, 9 times if you want to throw in all the NU Pokemon.

With FIVE times as many pokemon in a team of SIX.

Also, Chomp being on your team is the equivalent of having one match in a 2/3 set automatically won for you. He could take out 2 Pokemon with ease, which is 1/3 of the team, or 1/3 of the games. My statistics are not flawed in any way....
It ALSO was true that the gap between Chomp and Gengar (#2) was narrower than MK and Snake, but Gengar wasn't even close to be overcentralizing. The math all works out in the end.

Taking into consideration stages (and MKs use of them) and you want to throw out that comparison and say its statistically sound?

Your statistics are flawed in every way when trying to make a comparison or STANDARD of a bannable character between Pokemon and Smash.
If you want to compare them, I can see more ways that MK goes at least as well or PROBABLY BETTER than garchomp has.

 

[HeroMystic]

Personally, I think (assuming MK is allowed) EVEN MORE people will pick him up because of the huge increases of money on the line at MLG.

But those are just my thoughts~

Maybe the MLG Circuit can be used as a testing ground for MK data.

 

[GwJ]

see why do people want MK banned just use ROB

Did.....you just really tell us to go ROB against MK?

 

[Master Raven]

I am quite interested in seeing how MLG will influence MK's fate.

 

[Code Lyon]

$60,000 will most likely show a lot of peoples true colours in relation to use of charactes.

Am I the only one Lol'ing at this?

too true.

 

[GwJ]

I am quite interested in seeing how MLG will influence MK's fate.

Well, one would IMAGINE that we'd see an even higher rate of characters like MK and Snake based on the higher stakes involved.

 

[Throwback]

Exactly - higher level of competition/$$ = more pressure to win = choose a character that gives you a good chance of doing so

 

[Asdioh]

Now lets get off this Pokemon discussion.

Please, PLEASE!

Competitive Pokemon is so bad.



The fact that Brawl has tripping is going to be so embarassing at MLG.

/randomtangent


Anyway back to MK. He's pretty bannable imo, with or without limits.

 

[GwJ]

Yes, we have already proven MK to be bannable.

But the real issue here is.....

Why is anti-ban refusing to counter our argument?

 

[UltiMario]

With FIVE times as many pokemon in a team of SIX.
If you want to compare them, I can see more ways that MK goes at least as well or PROBABLY BETTER than garchomp has.

1. Well, I'm not sure weather 9 or 5 is the true number here, seeing as some NUs are more useful than Ganondorf in Brawl..... either way, Chomp still has more dominance, definately more than MK has now.

2. You have to switch into or revenge kill Chomp, which kills everything in the game in 1-2 hits, and has incredible speed/defenses. Its MK with Ike's Almost-fully-charged B in Power and has like upper-mid weight. Theres a victor here.

Now no more Pokemon I'm bored of yelling at people about Garchomp in a Meta Knight thread.

Edit: Man GW you had to use Phoenix Wright.

 

[CRASHiC]

Overswarm, please post whatever you have of that new technique so we can practice, explore, and implement it it by the time MLG comes around. We've waited long enough.

 

[Throwback]

tripping has a purpose (prevent dashdancing, make the game more aerial). Not to mention we've all been playing with it for a couple of years and know that it doesn't decide games.

So no, I don't think it will be embarrassing and neither does MLG apparently.

 

[GwJ]

tripping has a purpose (prevent dashdancing, make the game more aerial). Not to mention we've all been playing with it for a couple of years and know that it doesn't decide games.

So no, I don't think it will be embarrassing and neither does MLG apparently.

I actually agree with tripping being fine. Sure, it can be annoying, but it doesn't decide games and rarely will it decide a stock.

 

[UltiMario]

Exactly - higher level of competition/$$ = more pressure to win = choose a character that gives you a good chance of doing so

And then the Ganondorf wins the Tourney.

Imagine what would happen to this forum if that actually happened.

One thing I know is that this thread would be locked and the "Ganondorf Discussion thread" would be made.

 

[ph00tbag]

Anybody who says they want an outright ban is silly. There is absolutely no proof that banning MK would have any effect other than allowing current high tiers to win more.

Well, if other high tiers continue to win, but with greater diversity, isn't that considered a successful ban? No one's looking for Ganon to be winning tourneys or anything. You've kinda picked out a rather extreme strawman, here.

 

[Sosuke]

So did anyone respond to Crow's original post with all the charts and stuff?
I've been skimming this thread looking for that.

The fact that Brawl has tripping is going to be so embarassing at MLG.

It's going to happen in GFs and everyone's gonna be all like "wtfz".
And then we're going to be all like "Yeah.. =(".

Man.

Phoenix Wright gifs

Please stop with those.

 

[_Keno_]

So did anyone respond to Crow's original post with all the charts and stuff?
I've been skimming this thread looking for that.

I saw this, but is there another set of charts?

As he has recently alluded to, a while ago Thiocyanide asked:


Those following Ankoku's rankings over time basically know the answer, but here it is narrowed down to month-by-month results. You can, of course, mentally average to groups of 3 months or whatever if it makes things easier for you.

The slope of the least squares regression line for MK is +7.13% per year.

As you can see, there's basically two trends in the data. During months of especially large tournaments, MK kicks even more butt than usual, and the amount by which he has been dominating during those months has been increasing. During the other months, MK's climb has been a bit slower, but it is still definitely an increase with no signs of falling off.

The slopes of the "spikes" is +15.8% per year. The slope of the "baseline" is +5.77% per year. Any way you look at it, MK's dominance is still rising, and not showing signs of plateauing, and most assuredly not showing signs of going down.

Now, it's not always sound to extrapolate data past the range of dates it came from. But feel free to think about just how much even more ridiculous MK's dominance could easily be in as short as 2 years from now if nothing dramatic happens to stop the trend. But where we are now is, of course, already pretty bad.

 

[Asdioh]

Overswarm, please post whatever you have of that new technique so we can practice, explore, and implement it it by the time MLG comes around. We've waited long enough.

Wut

tripping has a purpose (prevent dashdancing, make the game more aerial). Not to mention we've all been playing with it for a couple of years and know that it doesn't decide games.

So no, I don't think it will be embarrassing and neither does MLG apparently.

Except dashdancing is amazingly useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeqAU4JvpfQ this is just an example, it's the only match I got recorded last time I went to a tourney. I didn't think about it much at the time, but while watching the replay I noticed that I dash danced a lot, and it just helps spacing sooo much sometimes.
Now imagine if I had tripped -_-


And tripping CAN be pretty deadly sometimes, even if it doesn't necessarily result in a "trip->get fsmashed->lose stock" scenario.

For example, tripping can put me into a free tech chase that I had no intention of being in, and then even if they don't techchase perfectly it still puts me in a position I hadn't planned on, and sometimes results in me getting hit repeatedly and taking plenty of unnecessary percent.

It's a MAJOR morale killer to me occasionally, that's all I'm saying.
Other times it does nothing.


Btw, if you play 999,999 games you unlock the "no tripping" option, so get to playing guys!!!!11

And then the Ganondorf wins the Tourney.

Imagine what would happen to this forum if that actually happened.

One thing I know is that this thread would be locked and the "Ganondorf Discussion thread" would be made.

riiiiight

 

[Espy Rose]

I actually agree with tripping being fine. Sure, it can be annoying, but it doesn't decide games and rarely will it decide a stock.

Dojo once tripped into an Ice Climber's infinite into a lost stock.

Plenty of people have tripped into KO moves. I've done so on multiple occasions.

Let's see how annoying it is when someone trips and loses a stock in a high stakes, $XX,XXX.00 match.

 

[HeroMystic]

tripping has a purpose (prevent dashdancing, make the game more aerial). Not to mention we've all been playing with it for a couple of years and know that it doesn't decide games.

So no, I don't think it will be embarrassing and neither does MLG apparently.

Doesn't really stop tripping from being ********. We've just worked around it. Doesn't really stop dash-dancing either.

I tripped into a Snake mine once... it's even on youtube. >_>

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You should also consider (although you probably already have) that if more MK's are entering tournements the likely hood that they will do well increases. There isn't that many snake and diddy mains compared to MK.

I'm sure of all of us here can name many more MK players then snake and diddy players. I don't want to hear the "its because Allys that much better then everyone else" its not like Ally and ADHD select super omega king diddy and snake off the selection menu they are useing the same characters that everyone else is and they consistently beat even the best of MKs. Maybe if more people mained diddy and snake instead of MK there would be even more people that consistently beat every metaknight.

If everyone and there grandma didn't main Metaknight we'd see more even results but right now the majority of the top players main Metaknight. You could say its because hes the best but the way I see it is Ally and ADHD are the king of the mountain right now and theres WAY more MKs then snakes and diddy so the likely hood that a snake and diddy are the best players is a lot lower maybe Snake and Diddy are the best at top level. I also dont see Ally and ADHD loseing to any of there "bad matchups".

The main reason MK is under the ban microscope is because the character is overly popular. If he is the best it's not enough to be ban for if there are no metaknights that can beat the top 2 players (potentially more if everyone didn't main MK). If anything gets MK ban its going to be his popularity not his character.

Nice try, but this has been disproven.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

I would shy away from making decisions based on this particular issue, there's a lot of hard feelings on this particular issue, and it's very easy to make a rash decision on this. I think that asking for a compiled argument is, furthermore, I think you gotta consider his motivations for getting people together, he was trying to force the issue to be resolved by convincing the BBR to decide in his favor, same as OS did.


Ultimately, I think that we're all too invested to consider any form of punitive action.

No, not really. OS is not the status quo, meaning he can't use a group of people who would potentially go against SBR should the status quo change to pressure them into keeping the status quo. All OS is doing is telling people to follow the SBR's decision; Omni is doing the opposite.

Its Evo all over again. . . .

but seriously, I think this is the time to discuss this, and make a community decision before MLG makes their rule set.

DEAR GOD THIS.

Guys, if we don't make a final decision on Metaknight before the MLG ruleset, what then? How will MLG respond? Oh, I dunno, probably BBR ruleset. WE DON'T WANT THIS!

Did.....you just really tell us to go ROB against MK?

He was joking.

Yes, we have already proven MK to be bannable.

But the real issue here is.....

Why is anti-ban refusing to counter our argument?

Planking us until MLG.

Overswarm, please post whatever you have of that new technique so we can practice, explore, and implement it it by the time MLG comes around. We've waited long enough.

THIS.

I saw this, but is there another set of charts?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

 

[PottyJokes]

with mlg coming up, there'll be another national tourney MK doesn't win and loses to either a snake or diddy kong! can't wait.