Official Metaknight Discussion

[DMG]

Ah, but if a gay playstyle is widely accepted and approved of, can it still be called a gay playstyle?

Is Japes legal here?

If gay people are widely accepted and approved of, they are still called gay.

Japes, is sometimes? Legal here lol. Not sure. Japes is fun, I like stalling in the water lol

 

[etecoon]

Ah, but if a gay playstyle is widely accepted and approved of, can it still be called a gay playstyle?

just because everyone is gay doesn't change that it's gay

edit: ninja'd...goddammit DMG's signature is hypnotic

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^ incorrect

it is simply gay[slight varying degrees of homo]

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@BPC: I already said how I was going to respond to pro-ban, but at this point it's probably not even worth it. How does someone continued to get trolled and disrespected when they clearly say: "I will address your case in its entirety once you finish your argument and organize it in a fashion where I can respond to it."

Hey, don't blame me. You were the one who said you weren't interested when you heard that the fully put together argument was long. Granted, 40 pages is PRETTY ****ING LONG, but you asked for it, you get it, and you don't respond to it? All our work for nothing.

Overswarm wins. Flawless victory.

Either way, I just don't see how, with DMG, Flayl, OS, Crow, plus any other member's added contributions to their respective threads, people can still consider being anti-ban without some absurd reasoning at this point in time.

If anti-ban ever DOES come up with anything, you can be sure that I'd read it. But until then, pro-ban has pretty much captured my heart.

Also, what Stauffy said.

Apparently, this.

To be anti-ban you need to be one or more of the following:
-An idiot/ignorant
-Incredibly biased
-Blind

WHY ISN'T MK BANNED YET?

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

If gay people are widely accepted and approved of, they are still called gay.

Japes, is sometimes? Legal here lol. Not sure. Japes is fun, I like stalling in the water lol

I blame faulty terminology.

stauffy is the king of gaystyle

Ouch, Mike. Ouch.

 

[iRJi]

Ah, but if a gay playstyle is widely accepted and approved of, can it still be called a gay playstyle?

Is Japes legal here?

If gay people are widely accepted and approved of, they are still called gay.

Japes, is sometimes? Legal here lol. Not sure. Japes is fun, I like stalling in the water lol

lol, this is what i was going to post xD

 

[UltiMario]

You know, I'm seeing a lot of: "Ban MK cause he CAN be unbeatable and he CAN do this and this and this and blablabla, but nobody has done it"

Two things:

1. I thought the first thing that was agreed upon is that MK was going to be banned on overcentralization of the Metagame, and that MK was not broken, and wouldn't be banned for that, this even came up again probably within the last 50-100 pages.

2. Well, nobody HAS done it, so, wheres the problem? If MK is unbeatable, prove it. If the frames say you can, do it. Someone show us that hes unbeatable by winning a tourney with MK using these strategies that render him unbeatable. I'm even starting to think that if might not be possible for a human to do this if not even M2K has shown it off, sure, the FRAMES might say its possible, but theres still the whole fact we're not perfect. If we were all perfect? Sure, then it would all work out and MK would be banned. But we're not. Until someone can prove that this whatever-it-is (I really haven't read back about what this is, I'm just going off what I've seen in the last few pages) can be done to win a large tourney, you've got nothing.

Have @ me.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I just want you to know, playstyles aren't people.

 

[HentaiKing4Everr]

meh Gayer the style, increase winning %

 

[DMG]

And people aren't playstyles

 

[Espy Rose]

Apparently, this.

To be pro-ban you need to be one or more of the following:
-An idiot/ignorant
-Incredibly biased
-Blind

WHY ISN'T MK BANNED YET?

Wait, did you MEAN pro-ban, or anti-ban?

2. Well, nobody HAS done it, so, wheres the problem? If MK is unbeatable, prove it. If the frames say you can, do it. Someone show us that hes unbeatable by winning a tourney with MK using these strategies that render him unbeatable. I'm even starting to think that if might not be possible for a human to do this if not even M2K has shown it off, sure, the FRAMES might say its possible, but theres still the whole fact we're not perfect. If we were all perfect? Sure, then it would all work out and MK would be banned. But we're not. Until someone can prove that this whatever-it-is (I really haven't read back about what this is, I'm just going off what I've seen in the last few pages) can be done to win a large tourney, you've got nothing.

On top of what DMG and Stauffy have said, it's pretty difficult to do this when you consider that a large majority of areas have ledge grab limits that hinders/limits that type of play.

Not to mention personal interests. Some people won't do it because of their own personal beliefs that conflict with the "play-to-win" mentality.

 

[Nanaki]

To be pro-ban you need to be one or more of the following:
-An idiot/ignorant
-Incredibly biased
-Blind

WHY ISN'T MK BANNED YET?

I'm pretty sure that's a typo, but you may want to fix it.

DMG, why don't you play MK every tourney yet and gay the hell out of everyone? LGLs?

 

[gallax]

And people aren't playstyles

i once teamed with a dude and we were called playstyles...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

oh noes smash racism in the form of playstyles

so deeply hurt brb

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know, I'm seeing a lot of: "Ban MK cause he CAN be unbeatable and he CAN do this and this and this and blablabla, but nobody has done it"

Two things:

1. I thought the first thing that was agreed upon is that MK was going to be banned on overcentralization of the Metagame, and that MK was not broken, and wouldn't be banned for that, this even came up again probably within the last 50-100 pages.

2. Well, nobody HAS done it, so, wheres the problem? If MK is unbeatable, prove it. If the frames say you can, do it. Someone show us that hes unbeatable by winning a tourney with MK using these strategies that render him unbeatable. I'm even starting to think that if might not be possible for a human to do this if not even M2K has shown it off, sure, the FRAMES might say its possible, but theres still the whole fact we're not perfect. If we were all perfect? Sure, then it would all work out and MK would be banned. But we're not. Until someone can prove that this whatever-it-is (I really haven't read back about what this is, I'm just going off what I've seen in the last few pages) can be done to win a large tourney, you've got nothing.

Have @ me.

Well. Let's say, for example, we have a game where there's a character that is just ********. The character is so far above and beyond everyone else that just using him would be grounds to get curb stomped. NOBODY wants to play him because they know their friends would abandon them if they did. Just not a good idea. All of a sudden, some random nobody comes to tournaments and starts schooling everyone with said char. Why wait until that point to ban him?

 

[Overswarm]

You know, I'm seeing a lot of: "Ban MK cause he CAN be unbeatable and he CAN do this and this and this and blablabla, but nobody has done it"

Two things:

1. I thought the first thing that was agreed upon is that MK was going to be banned on overcentralization of the Metagame, and that MK was not broken, and wouldn't be banned for that, this even came up again probably within the last 50-100 pages.

We were told "What IS overcentralization". When we asked Omni, he didn't respond. You used Garchomp's 44% (is that right? Something like that), but I'm not exactly sure how accurate choosing one pokemon from a 6 character roster would be. By that I mean it probably wouldn't be accurate at all.



Actually, I have two questions for you Ulti:

1) What % would you consider "too dominant" for getting top 3 (the money placements) within viable characters?

2) What characters would you consider "viable" for top 3 (the money placements) in high level tournament play? This doesn't mean you can pick up Wolf and destroy your friends, this means your character has to play well in top level tournaments and consistently win money with real competition.

2. Well, nobody HAS done it, so, wheres the problem? If MK is unbeatable, prove it. If the frames say you can, do it. Someone show us that hes unbeatable by winning a tourney with MK using these strategies that render him unbeatable. I'm even starting to think that if might not be possible for a human to do this if not even M2K has shown it off, sure, the FRAMES might say its possible, but theres still the whole fact we're not perfect. If we were all perfect? Sure, then it would all work out and MK would be banned. But we're not. Until someone can prove that this whatever-it-is (I really haven't read back about what this is, I'm just going off what I've seen in the last few pages) can be done to win a large tourney, you've got nothing.

Have @ me.

The point wasn't so much "look at what people are doing" but "HEY THIS IS POSSIBLE, WE AREN'T EXAGGERATING".

So yeah, people ARE going to be doing it.

More importantly, a lot of people like Adumbrodeus and Omni and the like said he had to have something like Akuma's fireball trap to do anything... and this is pretty close. Akuma never showed his fireball trap to be unstoppable within human error at high level play, so if he's your bar it's silly to expect more.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sorry about the typo folks. It is indeed the anti-ban who are the idiots. Virtually all evidence says so.

 

[DMG]

For whoever asked: I actually have been using MK a lot more recently. Most of my 2-3 month recent results have MK next to my name. Recently, I used him to get a close set with Gnes. Next time I have to play either him or Razer, I will definitely exploit whatever Ledge Grab Limit is in place and plank to win. Razer personally knows I can do it, and he won't MM my MK with his Snake because he and I both know what I would do lol.

I'm pretty good at the Diddy and Snake matchups, as MK, without even playing gay. I think if I played gay, combined with understanding just a tad more of the matchup from MK's perspective (since my MK is relatively new/fresh still), that everything would be a LOT easier lol

 

[Mew2King]

adhd and ally ***** me this weekend -_-

so since MK is 27 times better than everyone else, and I lost to them, I'm probably like 35 times worse than them as a player. Other MKs at that tourney should probably be maybe 40-50 times worse by my calculation

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

adhd and ally ***** me this weekend -_-

so since MK is 27 times better than everyone else, and I lost to them, I'm probably like 35 times worse than them as a player. Other MKs at that tourney should probably be maybe 40-50 times worse by my calculation

Were you planking? Is it possible that you're misreading the statistics when you see that MK is 27 times better than snake and Diddy at the absolute highest level of play? Were you planking? Were you using every advantage given to you, playing as gay as possible? Were you planking?

 

[UltiMario]

We were told "What IS overcentralization". When we asked Omni, he didn't respond. You used Garchomp's 44% (is that right? Something like that), but I'm not exactly sure how accurate choosing one pokemon from a 6 character roster would be. By that I mean it probably wouldn't be accurate at all.



Actually, I have two questions for you Ulti:

1) What % would you consider "too dominant" for getting top 3 (the money placements) within viable characters?

2) What characters would you consider "viable" for top 3 (the money placements) in high level tournament play? This doesn't mean you can pick up Wolf and destroy your friends, this means your character has to play well in top level tournaments and consistently win money with real competition.

-Actually, if you do all the math considering how many Fully Evolved/usable at all Pokemon in compared to the Brawl character count, Garchomps 42% (not 44 olo) is MUCH higher than say, MK at 42%. Garchomp was overly dominant when he was banned. It'd be like if MK usages hit like 60%, but thats because its probably an even longer process to ban a Pokemon than a character. I'm serious.

1. I asked you this very question, ironic you're trying to fire it back, huh? But it doesn't work the other way around, AT ALL. This is something that you need to understand is the community's decision. Smash is unlike any other game out there, so we need to grab at straws, try to find examples, and try to find a place where an MK ban is completely justified. Thats why I used Chomp as an example, as at 42% (as I said, like what would be 60% in comparison), was a bit TOO dominant at that number before being banned, and since MK usage isn't even at that number, a ban seems rediculous. My personal point where I'd give up protecting MK is..... 51%. My reasons for that should be obvious. More than half the Metagame of dominance is too much. But you guys should help sort out what IS too much yourselves, because thats the only 100% solid way to ban a character, pure statistics that meet the requirements the community set as a ban standard.

2. This isn't even a real question. The top Characters on the Character Ranking List solve the question for you.

The point wasn't so much "look at what people are doing" but "HEY THIS IS POSSIBLE, WE AREN'T EXAGGERATING".

So yeah, people ARE going to be doing it.

More importantly, a lot of people like Adumbrodeus and Omni and the like said he had to have something like Akuma's fireball trap to do anything... and this is pretty close. Akuma never showed his fireball trap to be unstoppable within human error at high level play, so if he's your bar it's silly to expect more.

Except that from day 1 it was as obvious as day and night that Akuma was overpowered, theres very little regarding that. Here we're debate if MK is bannable, which makes a world of difference.

The existance of this discussion thread voids your statement.

 

['V']

I have a feeling he didn't plank. That or he didn't plank enough...

Either way, he lost. Plain and simple.

 

[Mew2King]

no i didn't plank. Planking is banned

 

[DMG]

Garchomp IMO was actually banned WAY too fast lol. Now that Latias is considered OU, I think Garchomp is perfectly suitable in OU as well. There are too many things with strong Priority, Ice Shard/Beam, or that simply outrun it IMO that makes him not ban worthy.

 

[gallax]

adhd and ally ***** me this weekend -_-

so since MK is 27 times better than everyone else, and I lost to them, I'm probably like 35 times worse than them as a player. Other MKs at that tourney should probably be maybe 40-50 times worse by my calculation

well actually u and ally go even with each other. sometimes u win and sometimes he wins. adhd on the other hand has ur number down pretty good so maybe hes like 20 times better...

 

[UltiMario]

Garchomp IMO was actually banned WAY too fast lol. Now that Latias is considered OU, I think Garchomp is perfectly suitable in OU as well. There are too many things with strong Priority, Ice Shard/Beam, or that simply outrun it IMO that makes him not ban worthy.

Garchomp runs Yache Berry to remove its Ice problems, as it always has. Its also that literally nothing in the game can switch into with 100% certainty that its not going to get OHKO'd or outsped and 2HKO'd. Revenge killers (Like what Latias would work best as for Chomp) have always existed, and have mostly failed. It also FORCES EVERY SINGLE PLAYER to run Latias or risk losing to Garchomp, which biases the metagame 100X more than MK biases Brawl.

Chomp has been tested again, and again, and again, and again. Banned, he is like Melee Fox, SSB64 Pikachu, and Meta Knight rolled up into a ball and fed to a shark.

Just wanted to get that out of the way.


Edit: Mkay then so it looks like I'll be going to dinner nao. lol no more hearing from me for awhile

 

[etecoon]

adhd and ally ***** me this weekend...I'm probably like 35 times worse than them as a player.

wow MK really is broken

Spoiler

out of context quote trolling FTW

 

[Turbo Ether]

Yeah, uh, can we not back into this Pokemon nonsense? Their community is complete sh*t and our games have little in common. ty

 

[CRASHiC]

adhd and ally ***** me this weekend -_-

so since MK is 27 times better than everyone else, and I lost to them, I'm probably like 35 times worse than them as a player. Other MKs at that tourney should probably be maybe 40-50 times worse by my calculation

because there is no chance that you play the matchups wrong?

 

[gallax]

actually it comes down to what we have already discussed. that is at their level of play it comes down to whoever is the better player. i think adhd knows the MK matchup better than m2k and m2k doesnt know how to get around the stuff though. other than that it really comes down to whoever is playing better that day. although, adhd may be a better player than both ally and m2k. it would just be an opinion though. if adhd can beat all more consistently then id say yes, adhd is the best out of the three. but right now ally beat both m2k and adhd while m2k can only beat ally.

 

[CR4SH]

MK should not need special rules if he's not broken.

Let people play the actual character or ban the character.

Or give him a lamp post. http://www.lol-europe.com/champions/view/24/jax_grandmaster_at_arms

Also, omni seems to be getting pretty much outclassed in debate. Omni you're a cool dude, but it seems like you're in a bit over your head.

 

[Spelt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVV_2JawBgc

^dojo knows what's up.


DMG should start planking hardcore at tourneys with MK and see what people think.

 

[Espy Rose]

actually it comes down to what we have already discussed. that is at their level of play it comes down to whoever is the better player. i think adhd knows the MK matchup better than m2k and m2k doesnt know how to get around the stuff though. other than that it really comes down to whoever is playing better that day. although, adhd may be a better player than both ally and m2k. it would just be an opinion though. if adhd can beat all more consistently then id say yes, adhd is the best out of the three. but right now ally beat both m2k and adhd while m2k can only beat ally.

There's that, and~~

no i didn't plank. Planking is banned

~~this.

Can't play him at his best if he's limited by that rule.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

welp ban all forms of planking at all tournies

godwin

 

[ShadowLink84]

Garchomp IMO was actually banned WAY too fast lol. Now that Latias is considered OU, I think Garchomp is perfectly suitable in OU as well. There are too many things with strong Priority, Ice Shard/Beam, or that simply outrun it IMO that makes him not ban worthy.

Latias is OU!?

O_o
o_O
EXPLAIN THIS TO MEEEE!

 

[DMG]

Garchomp runs Yache Berry to remove its Ice problems, as it always has. Its also that literally nothing in the game can switch into with 100% certainty that its not going to get OHKO'd or outsped and 2HKO'd. Revenge killers (Like what Latias would work best as for Chomp) have always existed, and have mostly failed. It also FORCES EVERY SINGLE PLAYER to run Latias or risk losing to Garchomp, which biases the metagame 100X more than MK biases Brawl.

Chomp has been tested again, and again, and again, and again. Banned, he is like Melee Fox, SSB64 Pikachu, and Meta Knight rolled up into a ball and fed to a shark.

Just wanted to get that out of the way.


Edit: Mkay then so it looks like I'll be going to dinner nao. lol no more hearing from me for awhile

Garchomp running Yache berry now means that he is vulnerable to Dragon still, and he isn't as powerful as he could be with a Life Orb. It also doesn't protect him from strong priority. He is forced to decide on what nature he wants to run. Adamant gives him Power, but now he's super easy to outrun. Jolly keeps him fast, but especially if he is running a Yache or Haban Berry he is gonna lack a lot of power needed to guarantee those 1hko and 2hko's.

He's not a strong mixed attacker, and can be phazed out by the more dedicated physical walls. He doesn't have a lot of resistances that he can use to get in safely, considering that his defenses aren't exactly stellar.

Having Garchomp in play doesn't force you to work significantly harder to counter him specifically more than other Pokemon. With Latias in play, certainly not. The only thing about him that is really "Ewww" is Sand Veil, assuming he is under a Sandstorm. Garchomp is perfectly and reasonably counterable for him to stay in OU, Sand Veil IMO is the only reason he would be put under the light in the first place. He's basically a slightly Faster Salalmence, who is a worse Mixed Attacker, who cannot boost his speed with the trade off of being able to boost his Attack faster, and who only has a worthwhile ability if in a Sandstorm. That's about it.


Shadowlink: Latias is OU now, under the stipulation that she is not allowed to hold the item Soul Dew. I think it's weird, but fair. Latios is not in OU however.

But yeah, with Latias running around, I think Garchomp can also exist. Him having to worry always about Latias/faster Dragon if he runs Adamant Nature, Ice attacks if he doesn't run a Yache Berry, Strong Priority, Toxic and regular Spikes, etc. Just makes me think he's perfectly fine in OU

 

[GwJ]

how do meta knight mains fight the ban? they attempt to time it out lmfao

WHA-

 

[CRASHiC]

Hey guys, remember when people thought that ICs beat Metaknight but then Mew2King learned the matchup?

 

[ShadowLink84]

...

I swear to god I am going to taser people.

 

[Zankoku]

I think I'll support whatever rules MLG comes up with. :V