Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Now, I've seen this being bandied about by the community for about two years now. Is it because one can combo the other so easily?
Smooth Criminal
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Smooth Criminal
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
More or less...
it's a very patient matchup, lots of DD camping and waiting for the opening, whoever waits for the better opening should get the lead
it's a very patient matchup, lots of DD camping and waiting for the opening, whoever waits for the better opening should get the lead
NES n00b
Smash Master
Also Falcon has a way of getting in which is very important because most characters don't.
Winston
Smash Master
Those people who think tournament results are the most important thing are sure to have lots of complaints >.>
(I'm not one of them but there are plenty)
Scar
#HarveyDent
marth blows, 3rd best definitely, whoever did the points system only took .1 off of him for being horrendous on basically every cp stage
sheik vs ganon =/= sheik vs falcon, one is horrible **** the other is just ****
sheik vs ganon =/= sheik vs falcon, one is horrible **** the other is just ****
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
M2K also thinks so. Or said so. At some point. I don't know how much he believes or if he's changed his mind yet, though, Mr. Zimmerman is a hard one to figure out.
I think Falco will continue to do better than Marth in the future. Just give it time. Seriously. Who still plays Marth anyways? He's outdated. Pave way for the future. Pew pew all dai.
Falcon admittedly does do better vs Sheik than Ganon IMO. But they both blow against her. To the relevance of the tier list, the fact that Falcon is better vs Sheik than Ganon is seems like a pretty small thing. But then again I don't make these lists so what do I know?
Binx
Smash Master
I doubt he thinks Ganon and Marth is even anymore, last I heard he said Ganon can't do anything vs spammed nairs.
About Marth being outdated... I dunno, he still gimps everyone and has the most ridiculous grabs out there, its like sheik traded her recovery and projectile for a sword (the real reason Marth wears a tiara!).
About Marth being outdated... I dunno, he still gimps everyone and has the most ridiculous grabs out there, its like sheik traded her recovery and projectile for a sword (the real reason Marth wears a tiara!).
HT F8
Hostile Takeover
My friend always sidesteps it or Dairs me on the way down.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
falco is definetly a good char, idk about better than marth.
I don't quite understand the matchup b/w falco against jiggs/ics.
marth is not as good as fox/sheik because sheik exist for sure though.
falco's will start winning against marth, guaranteed.
falcon vs marth is very questionable, it really varies on play style between the two players and experience that they have against each other.
i guess this is what i'm trying to say, a marth who has never played a falcon, but the falcon won't know the matchup either, my bet is on falcon. falcon's playstyle's are very much the same in most matchups based on my experience. Marth can simply play the shield aerial game vs fox/falco. marth has to LEARN the matchup to play well against falcon, once he knows the matchup i'd say marth has the advantage 52-48. gimps and edgeguards are INSANE against falcon for marth.
I don't quite understand the matchup b/w falco against jiggs/ics.
marth is not as good as fox/sheik because sheik exist for sure though.
falco's will start winning against marth, guaranteed.
falcon vs marth is very questionable, it really varies on play style between the two players and experience that they have against each other.
i guess this is what i'm trying to say, a marth who has never played a falcon, but the falcon won't know the matchup either, my bet is on falcon. falcon's playstyle's are very much the same in most matchups based on my experience. Marth can simply play the shield aerial game vs fox/falco. marth has to LEARN the matchup to play well against falcon, once he knows the matchup i'd say marth has the advantage 52-48. gimps and edgeguards are INSANE against falcon for marth.
Cowbox
Smash Cadet
Falcon v Marth, in my eyes, has always been near equal (About as equal as two different characters can get.)
For one, Falcon has a chaingrab on Marth -- though it's only true to about 30%. He can approach decently well will Nair and once he pops Marth up in the air, Falcon can combo him like there's no tomorrow. Knee will kill at relatively low percentages thanks to weight. Marth, on the other hand, totally gimps Falcon's recovery and getting Falcon off the stage is not particularly hard to do.
It mostly comes down to choice of stage. Falcon loses to Marth a LOT on small stages like Yoshi's Story, whereas he stands a much higher change on big stages like Kirby 64.
For one, Falcon has a chaingrab on Marth -- though it's only true to about 30%. He can approach decently well will Nair and once he pops Marth up in the air, Falcon can combo him like there's no tomorrow. Knee will kill at relatively low percentages thanks to weight. Marth, on the other hand, totally gimps Falcon's recovery and getting Falcon off the stage is not particularly hard to do.
It mostly comes down to choice of stage. Falcon loses to Marth a LOT on small stages like Yoshi's Story, whereas he stands a much higher change on big stages like Kirby 64.
I would never say he ***** Marth.
Falcon ***** marth on stage for the most part. All the falcon player has to do is react to the di to play accordingly. For the most part it's not dependent on luck like how marth plays such as dthrowing falcon then guesses if the falcon is going to uair immediately (which takes away options like wd onto the ledge or fsmash), or if the falcon is going to sweet spot the dj, like that's just 2 parts of it, there's more crap but basically the marth with the gimping is ONLY easy when the falcon is BELOW the stage with the dj gone, then marth can dtilt, spike, and what not and it's legit.
Falcon's way to kill marth is much more proficient and is less dependent on luck or guessing. It's more on reacting and executing the moves without techfail.
Falcon ***** Marth on the stage, that's my conclusion.
Falcon's way to kill marth is much more proficient and is less dependent on luck or guessing. It's more on reacting and executing the moves without techfail.
Falcon ***** Marth on the stage, that's my conclusion.
your conclusion is a huge oversimplification and is wrong.
yes really skyheart, yes really.
pockyD
Smash Legend
compelling stuff guys; my opinions are flipping back and forth at a maddening pace as you present your amazingly in-depth arguments!
Binx
Smash Master
Marth can zone against Falcon with retreating fairs just like he can vs every other character, his grabs on stage also destroy falcon, and he grab tech chases falcon the same way falcon grab tech chases fast fallers, only better cause falcon's spot dodge is garbage, and Marth's grab range is better.
Once Falcon is off the edge the guessing game isn't really very complicated
1) is falcon below the ledge? if:
gotta love flow charts.
Once Falcon is off the edge the guessing game isn't really very complicated
1) is falcon below the ledge? if:
Y: then run at the ledge and move to 2
N: get in sweetspot range of forward smash then move to 3
2) Falcon is below the stage run off and rising dair killing him if he jumps or up b's early, is he dead?N: get in sweetspot range of forward smash then move to 3
Y: Dash dance around and waveland on stuff
N: then get ready to dtilt because he has to up b now or he is dead
3) Falcon Up-B'd high, read DI and bair him or nair him, or fair him, or dair him, or tilt him, or grab him, or....N: then get ready to dtilt because he has to up b now or he is dead
gotta love flow charts.
****it, my argument can't fit into that form without sounding ********
anyway, you make it sound like Falcon has control of the matchup and that Marth just has to hope for a mistake to get any openings, when I perceive the matchup as pretty much the exact opposite. Falcon punishes Marth extremely hard whenever he gets an opening, but when Marth decides to play defensively and react to Falcon, it doesn't seem that there is terribly much the Falcon can do until Marth makes a mistake. Also, regardless of height, Marth can molest Falcon off stage. You make it sound like edgeguarding Falcon is difficult, when it really isn't at all
.
Binx
Smash Master
and although Marth edgeguards Falcon easily, the opposite is also pretty true, light shield edgeguard to reverse knees over and over is pretty tough to get around when the situation arises. Falcon has all kinds of ledge tricks too so... yeah. Marth has the advantage though because he has more range and priority and a better grab, at high levels of play anyways.
I'd say it's even at the high levels, but w/e, I'm here to debate what it ain't, not what it am, and it ain't ****.
Mokumo
Smash Ace
Is this really going to be the last ssbm tier list ever? Growing up, I was told that the metagame is ever changing, and everyone keeps getting better. It's kind of a sad thought that we aren't going to change this again just because brawl came out...
isnt the falcon/marth matchup supposed to be 60/40 in falcon's favor?
isnt the falcon/marth matchup supposed to be 60/40 in falcon's favor?
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
I don't know what most of you think, but I believe the Falcon/Marth match-up is 60/40 in Marth's favor.
pockyD
Smash Legend
i would really like someone to explain to me what the numbers 60-40 mean, and why it's so much more relevant that it's like that rather than 58-42 or 3-2 or π-e
Megachuk
Smash Ace
prolly 55/45 marth's favor imo
pockyD
Smash Legend
what's the difference between 55-45 and 60-40? if they play 20 games, one game will have a different outcome?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
wow falcon clearly has the advantage vs marth. Sheik and Falcon are easily marth's 2 worst matchups
Laijin
Smash Hero
Its a ratio of the match up.
So lets say we have Fox vs Kirby.
The match up is 9:1 in Fox's favor.
So that means there is a 9 to 1 chance that Fox will beat Kirby.
Its quite similar to horse races if you know how that works.
pockyD
Smash Legend
i don't really get where "chance" comes into play... smash is mostly deterministic isn't it
but that's stupid because Marth will always beat Kirby.
M2K, don't you think Sheik is a whole different level of bad matchup for Marth than Falcon?
M2K, don't you think Sheik is a whole different level of bad matchup for Marth than Falcon?
Laijin
Smash Hero
The likely chance that Kirby will beat Fox is not likely at all.
But there is ALWAYS a chance for any character to beat any character, as small as it may be even if it is pretty much near impossible
pockyD
Smash Legend
what do you mean "chance" though?
if both marth and kirby are at the top of their games, marth will beat kirby 100% of the time... is that matchup 100:0?
maybe you are saying items are involved? sorry, I'm just not getting where this concept of "chance" comes in
if both marth and kirby are at the top of their games, marth will beat kirby 100% of the time... is that matchup 100:0?
maybe you are saying items are involved? sorry, I'm just not getting where this concept of "chance" comes in
otg
Smash Master
This shouldn't be the FINAL MELEE TIER LIST because you are right, the metagame is still evolving. As kirbykaze mentioned earlier, Falco is now starting to do much better against Marth than what was a year ago, considered a **** matchup. People are claiming Jiggs deserves a bump up, while I personally disagree with this, it just goes to show that nothing in this game is set in stone, and strategies are still evolving and changing.
The fall of Marth? I'd like to see it happen lol.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Marth has that circle of gay, where it makes it soooooo hard to approach him, not to mention his range and priority, which just makes things worse for Falcon.
=[
Laijin
Smash Hero
CHANCE IS ALWAYS THERE.
Its not 100:0
Its more like..99.99999999999 : 0.0000000001
or something ridiculous like that.
THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE TO WIN NO MATTER WHAT THE ODDS ARE.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
down with marth!
and jiggs needs a boost imo.
And I dont think falco should rise, his ability to get ***** much and ARGH gimped! make him worst of the top tiers imo.
I see falco as a character you have to play perfectly in every respect to win matches, he has the least amout of breathing room in terms of play perfection of any upper tier char.
and jiggs needs a boost imo.
And I dont think falco should rise, his ability to get ***** much and ARGH gimped! make him worst of the top tiers imo.
I see falco as a character you have to play perfectly in every respect to win matches, he has the least amout of breathing room in terms of play perfection of any upper tier char.
*also waits for pocky*
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