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otg
Smash Master
I thought the term "Disjointed Hitbox" only applied to hitbox's that weren't part of a characters hurtbox (Ie: swords, most of gnw's moves, ness's bat etc). If anything Jiggs hitbox for bair is just gigantic and extends further then you would expect it to.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lmao what a great hitbox
Fortress | Sveet
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gm jack
Smash Lord
The trouble then arises in that jiggs is far more maneuverable, making her control really large areas because of how quickly she can move in and out of attacks and punish them. And as people have said, jiggs gets far more out of a hit at mid and high percentages than Marth.
Fortress | Sveet
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Puff's bair vs marth's fair.
did you know puff's bair doesn't come out til frame 9, and the good hitboxes (ei the ones you see in all the pics) doesnt come out to frame 11 or 12? This picture was very hard to sync up because with marth i would delay 5 or 6 frames after starting puffs jump and bair before i jumped with marth and faired, and i was still too early. For this screenshot i believe i didn't start moving with marth til the 9th frame, and i jump->baired frame perfectly on puff and not perfectly on marth
edit- frame 9 is puff's worst bair hitbox, 10 and 11 have the same exact range, though the inner hitboxes change around a little, frame 12 is the famous hitbox (which actually has a little less range, but looks more impressive) and frame 13 there are no hitboxes.
did you know puff's bair doesn't come out til frame 9, and the good hitboxes (ei the ones you see in all the pics) doesnt come out to frame 11 or 12? This picture was very hard to sync up because with marth i would delay 5 or 6 frames after starting puffs jump and bair before i jumped with marth and faired, and i was still too early. For this screenshot i believe i didn't start moving with marth til the 9th frame, and i jump->baired frame perfectly on puff and not perfectly on marth
edit- frame 9 is puff's worst bair hitbox, 10 and 11 have the same exact range, though the inner hitboxes change around a little, frame 12 is the famous hitbox (which actually has a little less range, but looks more impressive) and frame 13 there are no hitboxes.
john!
Smash Hero
LOL I made a gif of that a while ago. Lemme go dig it up.
This, my friends, is why "keep Jiggs out forever" is a poor argument. Well, that and her aerial mobility.
EDIT: here ya go
pretty ridiculous
X1-12
Smash Champion
Until i see evidence on the contrary i refuse to beleive ANY jiggs can actually even semi-consistently space so perfectly that they can move out of range of a jab/f-tilt then be able to move back into range to B-air...
and btw if they do 'cling' (and i'm not sure if they do) marth jab out in 4 frames or f-tilt in 7 another back-air for jiggs would be 9 frames so to beat a jab would take a 6 frame better reaction time..
xbombr
Smash Ace
They don't clank.
edit: Puff's bair vs. Marth's fair
It appears that Puff's bair when perfectly spaced will actually go inside Marth's hurtbox, causing them to trade.
Dai Tian
Smash Journeyman
I'm aware of that, it's just I wasn't expecting Jiggs to have one on bair of all things. I mean, no wonder bair is such a **** move.
If we're on the subject, does Marth have anything useful that completely outspaces Jiggs' bair?
Anth0ny
Smash Master
LOL he puts it in his sig
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Most disjointed moves (Link moves, Ice Climber moves, Marth moves, etc) are also attached to those characters' hands (or other body parts, depending on the move). The sword move goes as far back as their arm in a lot of cases. The majority of them, actually.
So there's still a hitbox around the hurtbox. The move has just extended beyond the hurtbox, exactly like Jigglypuff's Bair. The only difference between those moves and, say, a Jigglypuff Bair is that whereas the extended hitbox on Link is explained via the Master Sword, Puff's just got an invisible hitbox.
If you observe Sveet's image, you will note that Marth's Fair hitbox still stretches all the way back to his arm and most of his body. So his move, technically, is still connected to his hurtbox.
His Fair, Nair, and Jab...
I mean, his moves still come out faster, he still has more overall speed (even if it's ground speed), and he still has more range overall. The only point I was trying to make with Puff's Bair hitbox is that, while it's true Marth's spacing strategies work against Puff, it's not like he outranges her by leaps and bounds, which seems to be the impression many are operating under.
xbombr
Smash Ace
Also if you look at Marth's FAir hitbox, one of the hitboxes it not in anyway connected to his hurtbox at all. Jigglypuff's hitboxes all touch her hurtbox. Given that there is space beyond her hurtbox that has a hitbox, Marth has an entire hitbox that doesn't touch him at all.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fair enough. Though given how monstrously overextended some moves' hitboxes are, and how far they extend from a character's hurtbox, I feel they might as well be disjointed from the character.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
I always thought it it isn't on top of the hurtbox like pichu's fair is disjointed and can beat the knee. It doesn't matter on the range as long as it comes off of the hurtbox
Winston
Smash Master
You're absolutely right. In terms of actual gameplay, it's an arbitrary distinction (that is, a "disjointed hitbox" vs "one that just extends out really long").
The "marth can keep jigglypuff out forever" argument also seems very shortsighted. Why can't Marth just keep Falcon out forever, for example? Falcon's hitboxes aren't nearly as good as Jiggs'. Obviously Falcon runs around and baits marth until there's an opening, but Jigglypuff does the same with her aerial mobility.
Ftilt is a really laggy move that is easily punished. Jab is a fairly safe move, but it does what, 4%? If Jigglypuff can get 1 hit in for every 5 times Marth hits her with jab she's still up on that exchange. It's possible that Jiggs gets the better end of 1 hit for 10 jabs, since Jiggs can actually combo and edgeguard marth.
xbombr
Smash Ace
Yup. Technically one isn't necessarily better than the other. Disjointed hitboxes tend to have more range though since they aren't touching the character at all. Meaning if you have two hitboxes of equal size, one disjointed and one not, then the one that's disjointed has more range since there is no overlap with the character's hurtbox.
With a disjointed hitbox you can make full use of every part of the hitbox without trading or fear of damage.
But yes, the difference is fairly arbitrary since a disjointed hitbox could be completely outranged by a jointed one.
With a disjointed hitbox you can make full use of every part of the hitbox without trading or fear of damage.
But yes, the difference is fairly arbitrary since a disjointed hitbox could be completely outranged by a jointed one.
Because falcon is faster on ground than jiggz is in air, and can punish baits better because of this, as well as DDIng being a better bait/punish tool than jiggz aerial mobility. Also, his speed being primarily landbased means he can punish with grabs, which are faster than anything jiggz can try in the air...also, can DD-> crouchcancel the move used to push him out-> start combo, which jiggz can't really do in air.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I largely agree, but I feel this is very character specific.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Sure, part of Doc's f-smash's hitbox isn't a part of his hurtbox.
I know technically that's what it should be and I'm just being an *** now, but I just want to make it clear that even if a hitbox doesn't overlap a hurtbox, it should not necessarily cue the term "disjointed."
But whatever, it's moot point; Jigg's is still broken and we're all going to die.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
I find this hard to believe
dch111
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 472
IMO a subtle but important issue is that Marth has to land after doing one or two fairs, and Puff knows this. That extra landing lag, even when l-canceled, can make all the difference at the highest levels. And if Marth advances or retreats with his fair, he is committed to doing so, and Puff knows this. Puff can advance and retreat within a single bair, and can choose to do quite a number of bairs before landing. So in a sense, one rhythm of aerials is more predictable than the other (balanced out, though, by the range of the former). Not saying this proves anything, but it's something to keep in mind when thinking about control on each side.
Fortress | Sveet
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Marth's sword is more disjointed than puff's bair.
Marth's sword is faster than puff's bair in every way
Marth has much better ground speed and mobility
Puff has slightly better air movement.
If they just stand off with puff on one side of a line and marth on the other, puff has to play a LOT safer and smarter than marth. Marth can basically spam his sword around and puff has to work to get through. She can't simply bair at marth and get a hit from it. It doesn't work like that. Her moves are all slower and at best share the same range.
When you talk about overall stage mobility and ability to choose where the fights take place, marth has that won.
The only thing that i think goes in favor of puff is that marth can be edge guarded. In straight up KO potential, they are about even.
Marth's sword is faster than puff's bair in every way
Marth has much better ground speed and mobility
Puff has slightly better air movement.
If they just stand off with puff on one side of a line and marth on the other, puff has to play a LOT safer and smarter than marth. Marth can basically spam his sword around and puff has to work to get through. She can't simply bair at marth and get a hit from it. It doesn't work like that. Her moves are all slower and at best share the same range.
When you talk about overall stage mobility and ability to choose where the fights take place, marth has that won.
The only thing that i think goes in favor of puff is that marth can be edge guarded. In straight up KO potential, they are about even.
X1-12
Smash Champion
I think lots of Marth players, when they get jiggs to the edge think its worth risking an F-smash... ITS NOT, she will almost certainly punish you and you will get *****.
gm jack
Smash Lord
It not so much the air speed as the air acceleration. By being able to threaten without nearly the commitment, it makes it very hard for people to judge when the attack is actually happening. The jiggs player can start a Bair, and then approach to hit or retreat with it covering your movement depending on their option.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Sveet, please remember that while Jigg's bair is indeed slower than Marth's aerials, it does not need to be started from within Marth's range. Jiggs has 9 frames to just play around outside Marth's range while waiting for her bair to come out.
What you should be covering is how much distance she can cover in 9 frames of air movement from completely stopped and from full speed. And also how many frames it takes to come to a complete stop from full speed.
Then compare these to Marth. I think you'll find that Jigg's aerial movement advantage is in no way slight.
Btw 9 Frames is how long it takes for Marth to jump+fair. Also keep in mind that fair has 23 frames of endlag when not shffl'd.
What you should be covering is how much distance she can cover in 9 frames of air movement from completely stopped and from full speed. And also how many frames it takes to come to a complete stop from full speed.
Then compare these to Marth. I think you'll find that Jigg's aerial movement advantage is in no way slight.
Btw 9 Frames is how long it takes for Marth to jump+fair. Also keep in mind that fair has 23 frames of endlag when not shffl'd.
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
I like dark sonics posts. Well thought out and make sense to me.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Dark Sonic is awesome. *thumbs up*
I remember I went to florida one time and he was playing when I got there. He was legit! I'll be in Florida again soon actually... gotta contact Floridians see if there's something going on.
I remember I went to florida one time and he was playing when I got there. He was legit! I'll be in Florida again soon actually... gotta contact Floridians see if there's something going on.
No.you!367 said:
you!367
Smash Rookie
roy should be higher
BBQ°
Smash Champion
I remember me and Dark Sonic did Marth dittos at Winterfest on Brawl day.
So much fun
So much fun
lordvaati
Smash Master
so THAT's Where all those guys begging for Ike to go up came from..
Ike is sooooo much better than Marth. He has Teh Ph1r3
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
WTF is an Ike
`Jammin' Jobus
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 489
why is the jigglypuff marth matchup still being thought of in such an outdated way. its like the way people just swear ICs are a hard couter to sheik but its definitely not true at all.
Jigglypuff's have gotten a lot better. matchup is definitely close. dunno which way i would call it. it's a close matchup.
Jigglypuff's have gotten a lot better. matchup is definitely close. dunno which way i would call it. it's a close matchup.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
this is an excellent post. anybody who still thinks it's a 70-30 matchup needs to get with the times.
another example btw is marth vs falco. even matchup in the current metagame, but ages ago, people thought marth ***** that matchup.
`Jammin' Jobus
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 489
lol just like people who think YL counters peach. lololol or marth hard counters ganon.
where do people get these ridiculous ideas for matchups.
some people swear to me that peach counters falco. not true.
where do people get these ridiculous ideas for matchups.
some people swear to me that peach counters falco. not true.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
What about kirby countering sheik hard LOL, maybe if the sheik had only one arm.
But that's more of a reason why this should be changed because marth's match-ups are getting worse. It won't be long and even roy will counter(down-B) him your welcome.
But that's more of a reason why this should be changed because marth's match-ups are getting worse. It won't be long and even roy will counter(down-B) him your welcome.
Sheik/Kirby came from Ken and Isai. Not the "One almost beat the other with Kirby" vid but actually FROM Ken and Isai. After that vid they decided it would be funny to spread a rumor that Kirby counters Sheik and because they are Ken and Isai everyone believed them.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Sheik would probably have to lose the arm she fairs with in order for kirby to win.
How is kirby with needs tho? do they **** like falco lasers?
How is kirby with needs tho? do they **** like falco lasers?
Kirby with needles is fun. They're not exactly Falco lasers(Kirby, using falco lasers better than Falco himself since 1883) but you can do some of the basic sheik tricks with it, Needle -> Grab/Tilt/Smash and it helps if you're playing a campy sheik. Kirby's third best power IMO
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