Official MBR Tier List

[Mogwai]

Vanz thinks that Y.Link ***** Jiggs and 2 stocked Darc at the matchup in game 2 of their set at RoM2, so I dunno, again, there just aren't enough games out there for me to make an educated statement on it, but I think theoretically Y.Link is insanely good at the matchup.

 

[D20]

I think the match up is slightly in Young Link's favor... although my only experience is against the Midwest Jigglypuff players (I have never lost to Sliq's Jigglypuff as Young Link). VaNz and I were discussing the match up during friendlies, and we both thought it would be his best option if he had to play against hungrybox or Darc.

Since most of Jigglypuff's attacks are air-based, she struggles to dodge Young Link's projectiles. When characters are grounded, they can just shield Young Link's bombs... especially since his grab is not a threat. In addition, bomb to dair can KO at around 65% on stages like Pokemon Stadium. Finally, Young Link has enough tricks to survive many of Jigglypuff's standard edgegaurds.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Young Link is really good vs Jiggs, but it's definitely no more than 7-3 in his favor.

 

[Mogwai]

I think it's 7.2-2.8

why do people insist on using meaningless numbers?

 

[Tamoo]

hmm y.link is annoying,

rather play gainst y.link than DK though

 

[N64]

YLink does well against jiggs. Pika does not : /.

Honestly, the main problem with pika vs. jiggs is jiggs can just shut out pika on almost every stage with spaced bairs. Uair caaan beat it, but you have to hit with the edge and thus it doesn't combo into anything and does a whopping 2-3%. So if you want to try to beat it every time you're going to have to do that about 30 times before you can kill her with something. And if it doesn't beat the bair? You take like 15% or whatever ******** damage it is. Pikachu essentially cannot combo jiggs and has a pretty difficult time approaching, and dies relatively quickly (his recovery is amazing but his weight is not), so just getting jiggs to kill percentage damage without eating too many aerials is tough. Also, pikachu's most effective way of edgeguarding jiggs is jump out with an aerial, but pound beats pretty much everything except uair (which jiggs won't be recovering high and thus likely won't be hit by anyhow) and then leads to jiggs edgeguarding pika.

Neither character has decent combos on the other, and they each are decently good at getting around the other's strengths, except for jiggs' aerial dominance that by itself sways the matchup in her favor.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I think it's 7.2-2.8

why do people insist on using meaningless numbers?

it's not meaningless, it's used to predict how many matches each player would win out of 10 games.

and by no more than 7-3, I mean no more of an advantage for Y Link than that

 

[pockyD]

no, it's meaningless

 

[KirbyKaze]

(I couldn't see what Mango was supposed to do to deal with the sudden change in altitude, correct me if Mango was actually just missing an easy answer to what Kage was doing).

1) Hog edge.
2) Hit him with invincible aerial so he needs to Up+B when he comes up.
3) Regrab edge.
4) Jump and Rest him when he lags on the level for a year.

With other characters, substitute "Rest" for any of: Chain grab, Falco as an offensive move, ridiculous combo, tipper F-smash, Dair --> moves, Peach D-smash, broken turnip pluck, Fox as an offensive move, Bair combo, or random KO / knockback move.

 

[LAX_]

i've seen top 5 falcos do work on ganons and practically 0-death them, only to get fair-ed twice and lose their stock, making it even.

i'm not saying ganon's broken (lol) but i am saying that falco's horrid recovery is a huge problem.
IMO there is no way he can be number 1. in SUPER THEORY BROS. MELEE he will DEFINITELY be number 1 without a doubt. but even top falcos make mistakes.

TOP TIER
1 fox
2 marth
3 puff/sheik/falco (tied exactly)

then blah blah blah

 

[TresChikon]

why do people insist on using meaningless numbers?

Are MU's just too abstract for concrete numbers?

i dun understands

 

[pockyD]

the numbers only hold significance when used to compare with other numbers

i.e. a reader would know that a 3-7 matchup is worse than a 4-6 matchup; however, there's no real meaning behind what a 3-7 matchup means in a vacuum

 

[Virusbluemage]

Top
Fox 9.88
Marth 9.85
Sheik 9.69
Falco 9.15

High
Peach 8.35
Captain Falcon 8.00
Jigglypuff 8.00
Ice Climbers 7.88

Middle
Samus 6.77
Dr. Mario 6.23
Ganondorf 6.04
Luigi 5.81
Donkey Kong 5.38
Mario 5.34

Low
Link 4.69
Pikachu 4.31
Young Link 4.15
Roy 3.60
Zelda 3.04
Game and Watch 3.00

Bottom
Ness 2.50
Yoshi 2.46
Bowser 2.17
Mewtwo 1.77
Kirby 1.50
Pichu 1.15

Is this still the final tier list? Because it definitely should be changed. Falco needs to be move ahead of Shiek, Puff needs to be moved ahead of Falco, and Ganondorf needs to be moved ahead of Samus. This tier list is so outdated. It hardly reflects the currect metagame.

 

[MarioMariox2]

It used to be the "Final" tier list.

 

[Vulcan55]

the numbers only hold significance when used to compare with other numbers

i.e. a reader would know that a 3-7 matchup is worse than a 4-6 matchup; however, there's no real meaning behind what a 3-7 matchup means in a vacuum

It means you left numbers on your floor.

 

[Deleted member]

It used to be the "Final" tier list.

well, I'm not making one. And as far as I know, no one else is.

It's safe to say that this list is still final.

 

[MarioMariox2]

And so it shall stay, so we will still consider Puff to be high tier ownage and not top tier ownage.

 

[Scidadle]

My turn

Top:
Fox
Shiek/Jiggs
Shiek/Jiggs
Falco
Marth

High:
Peach
Falcon
ICs
Ganon

Mid:
Doc
Luigi
Samus
Mario
DK

Low:
Pika
Link
Mewtwo
Young Link
Roy
Zelda
G&W
Ness

Bottom:
Bowser
Yoshi
Kirby
Pichu

no, it's meaningless

Try telling that to someone new to SSBM.

Don't be such a sourpuss

 

[x After Dawn x]

i've seen top 5 falcos do work on ganons and practically 0-death them, only to get fair-ed twice and lose their stock, making it even.

i'm not saying ganon's broken (lol) but i am saying that falco's horrid recovery is a huge problem.
IMO there is no way he can be number 1. in SUPER THEORY BROS. MELEE he will DEFINITELY be number 1 without a doubt. but even top falcos make mistakes.

I couldn't agree more with this. That's a reason why Linguini thinks Ganon vs Falco is 5-5 and others think it's only 6-4 for Falco; stage control doesn't mean much when you die easily and immediately when you're not holding stage control / make a mistake.

 

[pockyD]

Try telling that to someone new to SSBM.

Don't be such a sourpuss

what does this even mean

random people need to stop posting tier lists with no justification; nobody cares about your opinion unless there's sound reasoning behind it, and if you have no credibility, nobody's going to give you the benefit of the doubt

 

[Rappster]

pockyD has a good point. matchup numbers are meaningless.

its like chess. A queen is worth nine points, a pawn is worth one.
wth is a point? does this mean a queen is worth 9 pawns?
utter bull.

similarly, fox one-stocking marth 9 ten matches in a row is different than fox 4 stocking ness 10 times in a row, though both appear to be 10-0 matchups.

i remember that a month or two ago someone suggested that matchups should be changed so that a 6:4 means Character X takes 6 stocks for every 4 stocks Character Y takes.

that seems like a much better way to model these.

 

[TheManaLord]

it's just statistics and probability... you take the **** with a grain of salt because there are so many variables. it's just good base data for noobs.

 

[pockyD]

unfortunately, when the noobs associate the numbers with some sort of meaning in their head, it becomes a hard thing to shake

just consider all the people who still think kirby nearly goes even with sheik or that pikachu ****s all over jigglypuff simply based on the old matchup chart

 

[TLMSheikant]

Here goes mine:

Top:
Fox
Marth
Jiggs
Falco
Sheik

High:
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers

Mid:
Samus
Dr. Mario
Luigi
Link
Donkey Kong

Low:
Pikachu
Young Link
Mario
Zelda
Roy
Game and Watch

Bottom:
Ness
Bowser
Mewtwo
Yoshi
Pichu
Kirby

 

[Vulcan55]

Top:
-Ganon
-Jiggs

Garbage:
-everyone else

Obviously.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Here goes mine:

Top:
Fox
Marth
Jiggs
Falco
Sheik

High:
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers

Mid:
Samus
Dr. Mario
Luigi
Link
Donkey Kong

Low:
Pikachu
Young Link
Mario
Zelda
Roy
Game and Watch

Bottom:
Ness
Bowser
Mewtwo
Yoshi
Pichu
Kirby

Why the **** are Mario and Doc so far apart? That's incredibly ********.

 

[St. Viers]

Because he seems to value doc's better power and matches against spacies as much more useful than mario's extra range, less lag on aerials, and better combos. It's not like the two characters are actually played/perform the same.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Top:
-Ganon
-Jiggs

Garbage:
-everyone else

Obviously.

Obviously. x2

 

[x After Dawn x]

Because he seems to value doc's better power and matches against spacies as much more useful than mario's extra range, less lag on aerials, and better combos. It's not like the two characters are actually played/perform the same.

Yes, they do. The characters are extremely similar, and comparing their differences to their similarities is nearly minute. The reason why Mario is so much lower than Doc on the current official tier list is because of tourney placings and the fact that Mario mains will pretty much always switch to Doc (sometimes even Luigi) if they care enough to try and win. In reality, the tier list should not reflect that at all and doc should be max 2 spots away from Mario...

 

[EC_Joey]

Pills and fair make Doc so much better.

 

[Brookman]

Obviously. x2

obviously x4

p.s. nice sig.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Pills and fair make Doc so much better.

Exactly. Woot 2000th post!

 

[scorekid100]

obviously x4

obviously...c-c-combo breaker...

 

[MarioMariox2]

It's not like the two characters are actually played/perform the same.

Both spam neutral B.
Both CG w/ Uthrow and Dthrow
Both use Bthrow for kills
Both bair to edgeguard & use SHABAWD
Both have a Uair combo and both can finish with titled Fsmash
Both Fsmashes and Dsmashes are main smashes
Both can cape edgeguard and use Tornado for recovery
Both need same ATs in each other's game
Same CP for others and same CPs for ooponents against Mario
Both go "Woo, wah, woohoo, yahoo, yah, wahoo!"

I think they're same enough.

In any case, i agree with both x After Dawn x and the trophy where it says choosing between the two is a matter of taste.

 

[St. Viers]

1. Falco spams neutral B as well--is he like them? No, because he spams it differently than doc and mario. Doc has to spam them differently than mario as well, because the trajectory is different.

2. Most of the cast combos off of upthrow against fast fallers. Also, doc has better (read, guaranteed) finishing options out of his CG. Mario doesn't. Or at least doesn't have the ones doc does.

3. Not really. Both use b-throws to get people offstage. Then again, so does every character.

4. So does everyone. Their b-airs aren't actually the same--doc's sends people at a meaner trajectory than mario's does.

5. Doc's up-airs aren't as good at comboing as mario's, and it's much harder to land and f-smash after an up-air combo (though a single, low up-air does). Also, the difference between the two char's f-smash is huge, range and knockback-wise)

6. Doc's f-smash is not one of his main smashes. I'm pretty sure upsmash is used just as much. Also, again, that's 2/3 of the possibilities. Most characters use those two smashes.

7. Except that doc's cape is better suited to it, as it's slightly greater vertical hitbox. Also, mario has a much better recovery (on this topic) because of the benefit of being able to cape to gain distance, rather than just to stall.

8. Because they only use the basic ATs. Also doc has up B cancel, which mario doesn't, and mario has a wall jump (usable after an upB if done properly, which doc doesn't)

9. Except that mario has a better time vs Marth and Sheik because of the differences between them, so not really.

10. You got me there.

According to your logic, almost every character is like mario. You're basically looking at how the moves look similar, even is they are used is different ways. If mario started "spamming b" like doc did, he's get wrecked, just as if doc tried spamming when mario would, or like he tried using projectiles like any other character would. You're acting pretty ignorant, almost as if you don't really know that much about the characters you are talking about.

Yes, they are similar, but not so similar that they *need* to be next to each other on a tier list.

 

[TresChikon]

Mario combos harder, but has no (useful) finishers, Doc is the opposite.

D-smash is retardly weak compared to Doc.
F-smash is situational to use and has to be sweetspotted to do anything.
Cape only beats some of the cast's recovery.
B-throw takes too long to be good.
SHBAWD is stupid and only stupid people let it work on them.

In the end? Both of them suck. Doc just sucks less.

Play Fox.

 

[cykofox]

falco
jiggly
fox
shiek
marth
peach
falcon
ics
ganon
doc
samus
luigi
mario
dk
link
pikachu
roy
young link
zelda
g&w
yoshi
bowser
mewtwo
ness
pichu/kirby

 

[MarioMariox2]

According to your logic, almost every character is like Mario.

I suppose you can see it that way. If only it were true... Then Melee would be balanced. Hah j/k.

Yes, they are similar, but not so similar that they *need* to be next to each other on a tier list.

Ah, yes. I understand they don't need to be next to each other in the tiers, though IMO, they should be closer. Doesn't the tier list reflect a character's metagame? Regardless of the distinct differences the two have with each other, I think that their similarities are enough to bring them closer in said list.

After all, it's the same guy. He's just changing his clothes before battle.


Hah. I R Noob.

 

[Fletch]

Both go "Woo, wah, woohoo, yahoo, yah, wahoo!"

This was the best reason.

 

[LAX_]

changing his clothes changes his items and attacks too (WTF!).

but seriously they don't play like each other at all, and doc does a whole lot better.
that's why they are so far apart.