Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Archangel]

Marth and Black men have so much in common. 1. A bunch of sell outs 2. dying off, 3. can't win a national, 4 have extremely LONG reach ...the list goes on an on.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think you're responding to something in our chat but I can't be sure. Can you maybe flesh it out a bit? I feel like I'm not seeing all of what you're getting at.

 

[Archangel]

I think you're responding to something in our chat but I can't be sure. Can you maybe flesh it out a bit? I feel like I'm not seeing all of what you're getting at.

I should by a trolling sign and just hold it up..

but yeah...I actually think some of this spawns from some things we talked about. Especially the LONG reach .

 

[odinNJ]

KK why isn't pheonix higher, she's pretty broken in a game full of broken

 

[Wake]

lol Phoenix in UMvC3 is not broken.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

they nerfed her pretty hard.

 

[Gea]

Nah, she's not broken but she's still a pretty dumb design.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Guys guys

Low Health so balanced

That's how fake balance works right?

 

[Xyzz]

I don't think low durability is a bad way to balance offensive power houses. If spacies weren't incredibly good in the neutral position as well they would probably stop being the best characters in the game (:

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well that's because good neutral game is pretty much the most important aspect of a character, especially in melee... not because they have some crippling weaknesses. Being FFers is only a bad things if they have a problem keeping people off of them, but it's not a weakness if it's all by its lonesome.

 

[unknown522]

you don't know what you're talking about.

sometimes there's just nothing needed to be said. We need a like button for posts like this

 

[Lovage]

Guys guys

Low Health so balanced

That's how fake balance works right?

wait wait wait


are you saying

that fast-fallers get combed and edge guarded harder than floaties like puff?

what's that? on the other end of the scale there's CC's which beats all floaties?

that's balance BULL****


if somebody blows my mind and explains the percent system and how it differs from the hp system, i'll uninstall this game rq FAST

 

[odinNJ]

its much more jank and stupid, and (kind of) prevents infinites.

 

[Sever187]

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jXMHXjmpPs

 

[knightpraetor]

I want to know why nobody ever takes away Falco's shine -_-

Yeah, i wonder that too.

"Sheik destroys low tiers and reduces their viability!!"

"but falco has solid 40% combos on most of the cast"

"yeah but falco takes skill to combo with"

funny thing is I think I would have thought the same back when I was even more of a scrub. funny how perspective changes when you reach a level where those combos are guaranteed damage

 

[ShroudedOne]

If Sheik didn't exist, I think most of the low tiers would be exactly where they are.

Just my opinion.

 

[odinNJ]

roy would go up. my opinion

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But he gets destroyed by everyone

 

[Purpletuce]

I think that most low tiers would be more viable of you removed x high tier, but they would probably still maintain their positions relative to one another more or less.

Falco combs are always pretty sure things in my opinion, especially if the falco doesnt try to do silly super technical things.

I don't really play falco, but it seems like players can get pretty certain combs once they get familiar with him at around state level player.

 

[Deleted member]

I want to know why nobody ever takes away Falco's shine -_-

I told SB that i'd remove fox/falco shine but leave sheik exactly unchanged.

 

[Archangel]

If Sheik didn't exist, I think most of the low tiers would be exactly where they are.

Just my opinion.

I think Alot of the Mid-tiers will feel as though they have a better shot. A few characters like Link, Pika, Mario, Yoshi..etc will have a chance of beating out some characters that are still tough to face but not as bad as NTSC sheik.

 

[Bones0]

Spacies would be awful if they didn't have shines. If that's what you're going for, okay, but if you're suggesting Sheik vs. Spacies without shines would be an even matchup, then LOL.

 

[Archangel]

Sheik and Puff would be the best characters in the game NTSC that is.

Fox and Falco would fall somewhere between C and D tier. Assuming they had like...now downB move at all.

Now depending on what you replace the shine with they could end up being better than that.

 

[Bones0]

Down-B would allow you to transform between the two spacies.


It would also have the shine hitbox of the spacie you are transforming into, hit frame 1, be JCable, and have set KB. Start as Falco, dair, down-B (instantly transform into Fox with Fox's shine coming out), waveshine, SH drill, down-B (instantly transform into Falco with Falco's shine coming out), FH, down-B (transform), DJ to JC the shine, Fox's uair.


I should totally make my own fighting game.

 

[john!]

fox would be around falcon level without his shine. falco would be a bit lower.

 

[Archangel]

I honestly think Falcon would Roll on Fox if he couldn't shine him. I'd put Fox Below IC's in B-tier at best.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are you for real? Shine is more of a liability against falcon than an asset. You really don't absolutely need a shine with spacies, though I think they would drop a bit. Fox would just have losing match-ups with marth/sheik maybe peach. All the other fake characters he could still just zone and outspace with nair, bair, utilt, usmash, grab and all his other broken *** combos. Falco would fair pretty much the same, maybe even better than fox. He would still have his laser, bair, utilt, fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, dair, etc.

All in all, they would probably be somewhere around ICs or a bit higher if they didn't have shine.


edit- and for the record, fox would still roll puff without a shine

 

[Strong Badam]

more of a liability....?
what the **** did i just read...

 

[unknown522]

Loooool

 

[Bones0]

If shine were more of a liability... why would people use it in the matchup? >_________>


Someone should enter as a spacie and try to play without shine. Guarantee they do horrible compared to normal.

 

[oliman]

Shine is a huge part of the spacie game. They would probably lose to Sheik, Marth, ICs, and Falco would lose against peach, most likely. Falco would probably beat fox, though

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Shine is necessary to keep characters that have more range and relatively equal speed from attacking you out of shield or CC ****** you, which is why marth and shiek would be a pain in the *** to beat without a shine.

On the other hand, I've had a lot more success against Falcon when I try to shine less. Spacing him out with nair, bair and utilt leads to winning most trades with nair while also being faster than knee/dair. Using shine lets falcon use dumb tricks like sh dair OoS to outspace the shine. You don't need shine to stay safe on falcon's shield.

The same thing applies to most slow characters. Why would you shine ganondorf's shield? His grab range is ****, being in the space to shine only gives him a chance to guess your pressure pattern and grab you. Its much more reliable to lock him down by exploiting your mobility and attack speed advantages in general.

 

[odinNJ]

shine has uses besides pressure, comboing and killing, thats why its so freakin good. and no instantly out, instantly canceled move can be a liability lol

 

[Strong Badam]

If it's a liability you're using it wrong. Don't blame the move for your own incompetence.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Please tell me what you plan to use shine for if you are not attacking with it in the purpose of comboing or killing. Do you like to rack people up to 200%, 4% at a time?

If it's a liability you're using it wrong. Don't blame the move for your own incompetence.

Its funny, you have 16k posts and nobody ever replies to you

 

[Bones0]

I can't believe anyone thinks any top tier would lose to a shine-less spacie...

- Falco can't combo nearly as well at low %s with utilt as he can with shine (forget blowing up FFers from a single dair).
- Falco can't jump and shine people as they fall off plats or w/e to continue combos.
- Fox can't link into easy damage-building grabs or KOs with waveshines.
- Fox loses all gimping potential, and Falco can no longer shine floaties off the top.
- They both lose general edgeguarding abilities.
- They both lose their best option out of wakeup.
- They lose the ability to grab after engaging an opponent's shield (via shine-grab).
- They both have to cross up opponents any time they SHFFL or else they risk getting grabbed.

 

[Strong Badam]

Looks like someone's been taking notes from leffen's posting style. If you were right you'd argue it rather than throw out red herrings and ad hominem.

 

[VietGeek]

a game without shine?

i'd play that game.

in fact i'd make that game right now

more importantly what should that game be called?

---------------

and i hate to admit it

but i like umbreon's posts and game philosophy...at least concerning smash bros

but i don't like smash bros

i just like his posts because i agree with them

but i don't like to like his posts

life is like an anime

full of inconsistencies and suffering

obv

 

[odinNJ]

super balanced brothers melee.

oh if shine didnt exist, what a wonderful metagame.

also lol @ classic tier list thread salt wars

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

- Falco can't combo nearly as well at low %s with utilt as he can with shine (forget blowing up FFers from a single dair).

He still has a lot of things he could do, that are unexplored by most people because of how much easier shine is. Dair->dair can work at low percents, also aerial->dtilt and utilt. Heaven forbid falco has to grab in order to beat CC.

So yes, he would do a little worse, but he will still have better combos than most characters.

- Falco can't jump and shine people as they fall off plats or w/e to continue combos.

That is quite a problem, actually, but I think maybe in many situations it can be substituted by intercepting the falling trajectory with a nair or uair instead of meeting them in the air with a shine.

- Fox can't link into easy damage-building grabs or KOs with waveshines.

You can still combo into grab and usmash without shining. Nair combos into both of them, and initiating with them is very viable as well. I don't see much loss in this department.

- Fox loses all gimping potential, and Falco can no longer shine floaties off the top.

Not *all* gimping potential. Ledgehop bair is still one of the best edgeguards in the game, though without shine the finishing move would probably have to be substituted with dsmash once they fall below the edge.

- They both lose general edgeguarding abilities.

The only major loss would be the inability to turn around easily. Would take a style adjustment.

- They both lose their best option out of wakeup.

Shine isn't the best option for them out of wakeup

- They lose the ability to grab after engaging an opponent's shield (via shine-grab).

Umm, you know you can just aerial->grab.

- They both have to cross up opponents any time they SHFFL or else they risk getting grabbed.

How do you think other characters operate? Fox and falco have the tools to space outside of someone's shield without the use of shine. The only exceptions are characters with absurd range out of shield (marth, sheik). Spacies can still do late aerial->spotdodge to bait grabs.

I think you have taken shine for granted.


@Geek: So true man

@Strong Really Bad: You are the one that insulted me, not the other way around. As one can see, I have continued discussing this topic, but all you have done is derail it.