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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Archangel

Smash Hero
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combat22386
Are you for real? Shine is more of a liability against falcon than an asset. You really don't absolutely need a shine with spacies, though I think they would drop a bit. Fox would just have losing match-ups with marth/sheik maybe peach. All the other fake characters he could still just zone and outspace with nair, bair, utilt, usmash, grab and all his other broken *** combos. Falco would fair pretty much the same, maybe even better than fox. He would still have his laser, bair, utilt, fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, dair, etc.

All in all, they would probably be somewhere around ICs or a bit higher if they didn't have shine.


edit- and for the record, fox would still roll puff without a shine
Have you lost your mind? You do realize that Fox with no shine(assuming no down b) would have no 1 frame invincibility safety net? Also means he has no shine gimps on anyone? Means his threat level drops considerably even against fast fallers. What's he going to do to Falcon if he gets a Dair on him? Ftilt? Falcon on the other hand starts spacing and timing vs a fox without a shine and that MU becomes like 60-40. I dare you to put Hax or S2J vs a Fox that doesn't shine. I DARE YOU.


Fox vs Puff without shine would be pretty close. It just means that you can't put any pressure on Puff in any situation ever without her killing you.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
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Northern IL
Have you lost your mind? You do realize that Fox with no shine(assuming no down b) would have no 1 frame invincibility safety net? Also means he has no shine gimps on anyone? Means his threat level drops considerably even against fast fallers. What's he going to do to Falcon if he gets a Dair on him? Ftilt? Falcon on the other hand starts spacing and timing vs a fox without a shine and that MU becomes like 60-40. I dare you to put Hax or S2J vs a Fox that doesn't shine. I DARE YOU.


Fox vs Puff without shine would be pretty close. It just means that you can't put any pressure on Puff in any situation ever without her killing you.
Fox is much more versatile than you realize.
 

Vudujin

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
1,777
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Butler, PA
Fox is still pretty broken without shine. I'd agree he'd be around Doc or IC's. A simple adjustment of play style would compensate enough for the lack of shine to keep him from falling any further down the list.

Imagine how differently you'd play any other character if it had a shine.
 

odinNJ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
1,175
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NJ
luigi with shine oh lord, every character who doesnt fall down would be obliterated.

marth with shine, shine fsmash/shine grab/unbeatable

falcon with shine, i dont even know, i dont think it would be as amazing as it is with fox

sheik with shine, no

jiggs with shine. please, no
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
I wouldn't completely take out Fox and Falco's shines but instead make you unable to cancel them in any way. I think that would balance the game a lot more.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
spacies without cancelable shines would be boring though

we all know characters with stupid designs are hype

hype is more important than "logical" design

duh obv :079:

in other news giving ness a {JCable} shine is by far the best worst idea i've always never sometimes pondered yet conceived

thank you based magasu
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Ness doesn't really need a shine, he just needs his Uair to be positive on shield.

Then make his downb do something cool like making an illusion in place that counters for ~30 frames and pushes ness backwards a bit.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
sveet-chan neither of those are possible given the editing restrictions.

well...the first one is not reasonably possible given how shieldstun is calculated

he doesn't need a shine

but needs are relative too

actually **** needs altogether let's just make everyone "interesting" according to my personal taste, preferences, culminating experiences, and general mindset which may be dissimilar to others

and bam every smash hack since ken's gay peach theory was conceived

i really need some disclaimer saying i don't do PR outside That Thing's thread

cuz coherency is boring i just wanna type in long strings like they're BnBs

i don't even need training mode

obv :048:
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
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Corvallis, OR
Looks like someone's been taking notes from leffen's posting style. If you were right you'd argue it rather than throw out red herrings and ad hominem.
I smiled.
Are you for real? Shine is more of a liability against falcon than an asset. You really don't absolutely need a shine with spacies, though I think they would drop a bit. Fox would just have losing match-ups with marth/sheik maybe peach. All the other fake characters he could still just zone and outspace with nair, bair, utilt, usmash, grab and all his other broken *** combos. Falco would fair pretty much the same, maybe even better than fox. He would still have his laser, bair, utilt, fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, dair, etc.

All in all, they would probably be somewhere around ICs or a bit higher if they didn't have shine.


edit- and for the record, fox would still roll puff without a shine
Spacies are the best characters in the game, and I've often said they would be fine without a shine. They wouldn't remain the best characters in the game by the grotesque margin that they are now, and the entire game would no longer be focused around countering them, but is that such a bad thing? I imagine shine-less spacies would be like Falcon, a little weaker, combos that don't hit as hard, but more versatility (lasers, recovery options less lag on most moves)
Fox is still pretty broken without shine. I'd agree he'd be around Doc or IC's. A simple adjustment of play style would compensate enough for the lack of shine to keep him from falling any further down the list.

Imagine how differently you'd play any other character if it had a shine.
Agreed.

If every character had a shine?. . . the smash community would be 90% players who think they are good because they can use the down-B button . . .*cringe*
 

phish-it

Smash Champion
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Apr 4, 2004
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2,096
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Mahopac, NY
Ness deserves a shine as much as Fox and Falco deserve (or don't deserve?) one.


Actually he deserves it more than they do.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
no, but it's part of the bigger problem that (insert big arbitrary, made-up statistic here) of smashers think they're good because they can press a lot of buttons really fast.
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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You mean this isn't already the case?
Imagine the bad spacie player. Now imagine if every character had players like that. It would be so much worse.

Although it would be fun to watch spacie mains get upset and shout in frustration, then realize that they do the fraudulent BS that they're complaining about on a regular basis, then have to withdraw their complaint to save face. . .

Over this winter break I messed around some with Falco, so I could try to understand more about him. I'm starting to see why Falco players like him. It only takes a few hours to pick up a Falco that can play decently (technically).

I don't like Falco.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Man. Nobody gets it.

What will the shine do for most other characters?

Most other characters don't even have the proper physics to make use of the shine. (maybe falco's to some extent, but not much)

:phone:
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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Messages
26,550
no, but it's part of the bigger problem that (insert big arbitrary, made-up statistic here) of smashers think they're good because they can press a lot of buttons really fast.
the problem isn't that players are deluded of doing better than they really are, that's more of a widespread thing among all players. it's more that they are actually able to do well in the game without fundamentally understanding and being able to apply what the game is about; the skillset that the game tests is vastly different specifically with those two characters, and in a very toxic way.
also applies to jigglypuff, the character allows players do well while ignoring fundamental mechanics like being good at recovering or combo DI. puff sucks though so i don't mind as much.
i refer to this phenomenon as "fraudulence" and those 3 characters promote fraudulence just by their nature. not all spacie/puff players are like this, thankfully, but a lot of them are.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
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If people are doing well without understanding the game...doesn't that just mean that the people they're beating are bad/worse than them?

I guess what I'm saying is...I don't think you can win with Puff/Falco/Fox without outplaying your opponent (even though it might not feel like it). Unless there's something about those characters I'm missing, the better player will always win.

I mean, if you stagespike a Puff three times during a match, and you hit every ledgetech...but you lose anyways (this is just a demonstrative example, obviously much more goes into winning than this), who is truly the better player?
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
So 3 out of the roughly 10 tournament viable characters are "fraudulent"?

33% seems a little too high to be saying that the skills you need to know to play against those characters is different to the overall skills you need to play the game. Especially when 2 of them are the most popular characters in the game.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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you seem to have misread. the characters themselves aren't fraudulent, the players are.
if i were to describe those 3 characters, i'd be using much more negative terms.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
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17,679
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Spiral Mountain
Some random thoughts on how the shine on every char is ultra busted:

I'm gonna start with Luigi because this one is ridiculous and I don't know how someone got to the conclusion that this is amazing. At all. Fox's shine is not broken on Luigi because Luigi still has to get close to the opponent to set it up. He has no dash dance to do this, a slow walk, no good aerial approach, etc. His only way to do this is with WD and most characters focus on shutting his WD down. Can shine interact with Falco, Fox, Falcon, or Sheik platform camp? No. Can it interact well with dash dance grab > lol combo? No, not really. Can it interact well with needles, SH back, lasers, and other lame Falco & Sheik things? Not much more effectively than his current tools. If you want Luigi to succeed, he needs a move that extends beyond his current range really effectively and offers a challenge to these characters' control mechanisms from a distance. This is similar to why shine on Marth isn't really broken, just an upgrade from counter but we'll talk about that below.

Marth doesn't have the close-range aerials to make shine an effective pressure tool. Similarly, his game largely revolves around keeping distance - the shine only functions at close range. Now, whether giving him a reversal that's actually good is worth consideration. However, shine > WD > tipper f-smash is not broken (given how limited his setups are for it) and the amount of influence DI can have on the success of that combo is huge. Being able to shine spike and Up+B recover on low opponents is cute, but not that functionally different than his numerous offstage things that currently exist. I guess it helps gimping Peach though.

Ness still has bad range and no lead in for it because he has no threatening aerial. His uair chain still sucks and he can't reach anyone after like 50% aside from the FFers. In order to buff Ness, you want to make his SH and FJ accel speed higher so he can reach people during the DJC chain better. You then just want to give him tools to access his DJC chain (and probably improve the chain itself). He's not fast enough to use the shine after leading in with an aerial and his conversions off them are weak (bad ground game to follow Fox's, bad DJ for following Falco's).

Actually, I'd like to address the DJCers as a whole here. People are intrigued by a shining Yoshi or Mewtwo. I'm here to tell you, they're not that interesting. The DJC characters collectively need different things because they're not built like the spacies. Mewtwo's air mobility & floatiness is actually really powerful but he lacks the aerials to make it work. However, if you gave Mewtwo a good fair (think Sheik-esque hitboxes but with his hit properties) and an improved f-tilt or u-tilt to hit above & in front of him (to police people who beat him by aiming at that blindspot) and an improved side-B (set stun, not immediately prone to counterattack) he becomes a phenomenal character for a whole variety of reasons. Yoshi benefits from a proper grab & jump OOS way more than he does from shine. Shine doesn't address many weaknesses.

I'm also gonna address Puff. Shine on Puff (assuming she keeps rest - let's say she loses sing) is not as great as it sounds because she lacks the speed to follow up on it effectively. Her jump is tiny. Can you imagine her trying to chase someone after shining them with Falco's shine? Her aerials are also medium speed for the most part, so she doesn't have anything like Falco shine-bair or shine-dair to force automatic combos before they fly away. She doesn't struggle with low height offstage gimps currently - she's already great at edgeguarding those. If you want Puff to be broken, give her a throw that sets up rest, a simple tech chase, or an air combo on floaty / mid-weight characters (Sheik's d-throw, for instance). This is way more brutal than shine - all of a sudden, being grabbed by Puff is a thousand times more dangerous. Or, if you really want to play to the theme of Puff as a scary character, give her one of the existing air grabs. All of a sudden it's unclear whether you can shield her when she's jumping. Think about how drastic a change that is for almost any character that fights her. Puff with Inhale is ridiculous IMO.

tl;dr it's a great counterattack and shield option. It can stop you from being projectile camped to some degree, and it can set up useful moves. That said, not everyone has these useful ground moves, the physics to follow the launching shine, or the aerial game to lead into it. A lot of characters benefit way more from fixing their existing problems - this may include an OOS game, but often there are more pressing ones.
 

odinNJ

Smash Lord
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kk, you forget that luigi can wavedash forward while shining to reflect lasers then jump cancel grab falco.
 

odinNJ

Smash Lord
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ok, what about wavedash ftlit -> offstage shine kill. im just throwing out stuff i think of. also the ability to be able to follow up on characters like marth who go ridiculously far from the shine makes it worth trying to land (out of his usual approches)
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
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Jun 11, 2007
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Imagine the bad spacie player. Now imagine if every character had players like that. It would be so much worse.

Although it would be fun to watch spacie mains get upset and shout in frustration, then realize that they do the fraudulent BS that they're complaining about on a regular basis, then have to withdraw their complaint to save face. . .

Over this winter break I messed around some with Falco, so I could try to understand more about him. I'm starting to see why Falco players like him. It only takes a few hours to pick up a Falco that can play decently (technically).

I don't like Falco.
You took what I said a little bit too seriously. But, more than tech skill johns exist, and the bad player will apply it to any character they play. It's not character specific in the slightest.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Spiral Mountain
ok, what about wavedash ftlit -> offstage shine kill. im just throwing out stuff i think of. also the ability to be able to follow up on characters like marth who go ridiculously far from the shine makes it worth trying to land (out of his usual approches)
I'm not arguing that there are no benefits to the shine. I simply think that it doesn't address any of his "real" problems, namely that when you shut down his WD his range is really constricted and defined. He's also got extremely limited interactions with platform campers.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
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combat22386
Honestly Fox's shine may not work well on characters like Luigi and Marth but not all characters but what about Falco's shine? Imagine Marth's Shine-Dair?

Even puff(assuming she keeps rest) SHINE-REST OMG RIGGED.
 
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