Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Gea]

i think ness with ice climbers' side-B would be legit

Would he swing the bat or the yoyo?

 

[Deleted member]

why would puff with falco's lasers be ss tier?

i dont even think thatd be good

you don't think total air control and total ground control would be good compliments?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And suddenly Jigglypuff can force an approach. Scary.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But she doesn't really have the vertical control to handle someone jumping on her head

 

[choknater]

she doesn't need it tbh

 

[Popopidopop]

Puff with Ganons Fair and Falcos Lazer would probably be the sickest imo.

 

[Mahone]

i guess it is broken, idk, im really bad at doing these move swaps

i have no imagination : (

@mow, u in nova bro? wanna SMASHHH????

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Rather, give character minor tweaks instead of entirely different moves. I.E. Make Fox have less lag.

 

[ShroudedOne]

i guess it is broken, idk, im really bad at doing these move swaps

i have no imagination : (

@mow, u in nova bro? wanna SMASHHH????

Why are you apologizing LOL

You make a point that doesn't go along with the norm and get insulted/no one bothers explaining it (everything should be super duper obvious cause OP Puff + OP lasers = super duper OP, right?), and then you're all like "sorry guys, I guess I'm dumb," when no one bothers elaborating.

 

[Mahone]

well its partly cuz i dont feel like wasting time arguing on a hypothetical

when i made that post i was just envisioning a fox top platform camping me and not really seeing how lasers would help me... id assume a SS tier would be able to stomp fox no matter what; maybe thats not how tiers work idk

it would still take like 10 jumps to get to him and if i manage to hit him with lasers i wouldnt be able to follow up and they wouldnt really help me at all

puff is so slow that i feel like trapping the opponent in shield is not nearly as good as with other characters.... making people shield will always be really, really, good in this game, but i didn't think this would result in a super obvious move up to SS tier

forcing an approach would be nice, i will agree with that, but like i said, some characters are really good at platform camping puff (i think this is an underused strat vs puff that is much better than many forms of projectile camping)

defensively this sounds really awesome, when you have the lead, but i figure her version of sh lasering would take longer than falco's and it would shoot lower so i just envisioned people punishing the startup a lot and jumping over them/using plats to avoid them frequently

full hop double/triple? lasers would be really annoying, i have a hard time thinking about how that would look and work and how hard it would be to get through, so that might be really broken

her edge guarding would improve i guess, but not as much as other characters would with a laser, like, usually shes better off just going off and finishing them, so im not sure when lasering would be better that just doing that

i didnt really think of lasergrab when i made that post, that might be super busted, but im not sure how good itd be with her fastfall (this is why im really bad at these moveswap things)




i think id be super annoying and super funny, but i've never really wished that puff had falco's lasers, i always just wanted some speed

you guys don't have to respond cuz apparently im ******** and i don't really need to understand why this hypothetical puff is good, but i figured i let u know what i thought

 

[Deleted member]

i haven't played since august, and i'm intentionally not playing until apex so i can do money matches to see how many bad kids i can embarrass.

sh triple laser > threat of rest = hilarious

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff's MU with Sheik improves because Sheik's jump becomes terrible vs the threat of being lasered into grabs and other nonsense. She also won't be camped aside from top platform. D-throw vs Sheik gets way better because normally if there's no platform to trap Sheik, Puff can't really do much vs Sheik's descending options (fair, WL, FF, DJ > WL) but now she can just laser to cover any sort of counterattack and continue to hold a high degree of control. This also buffs how useful laser > grab is. Laser resets vs Sheik are also useful for covering options on platforms or after hitting a high aerial to procure follows.

Fox MU improves very slightly because Fox's top platform game removes the impact of them & his speed still runs over a camping Puff since lasers have startup. It also doesn't help her OOS. That said, laser > grab > combo is great vs Fox and it helps her cover his recovery options and setup her offstage stuff by locking him down for Up+Bing and covering recovery spots. If she f-smashes him she can now shoot a bunch of lasers to protect DJ areas and then head off herself. The fact that she edgecancels so easily is relevant here, so is the fact that she's shooting lasers are different heights because she can pop off two with a SH. This is relevant to countering other recoveries, but I thought I'd put it here. It gets really crazy with platforms in certain situations but all that should be enough.

Falco MU becomes bizarre. More ways to grab him can only mean good things though and her fade is much better for initiating after a laser (even if she lacks the shine to make it ultra broken).

Peach now literally has no business winning this one. No turnip pull from a distance unless she goes on a platform? A bazillion free grab setups or pressure? Yeah, good game.

Falcon MU is affected in a bizarre way, not sure how to view it.

I feel every MU where someone is good against her because of camping is suddenly much closer and more manageable for her. She can't be camped aside from the top platform and that's just stalemating and opens up air vs air interactions, where she can combo and OHKO the foe (but not really in reverse for most instances). Her air mobility lets her fade inwards to follow lasers after she's shot one to a degree that other characters don't have. These are very strong things.

Also, laser reset on a character with an OHKO and moves that combo into an OHKO is pretty ridiculous. It also means if you tech roll away from her, you're letting her establish her lasers. Normally rolling away from Puff in tech situations = neutral position again but with you closer to the edge (minor disadvantage). By her having lasers, it means that plus you're being lasered down (moderate disadvantage). It's harder to punish bad lasers by her because she has way more variety in her hang time and air mobility too, which is really strong.

I dunno. I think Falco's laser makes just about every character way better 'cuz of how much control they can exert. Having that much control also exaggerates literally all of their existing good traits and for truly bad characters it makes good traits appear in places there weren't any before (see: Kirby).

 

[The Star King]

Armada's Young Link counterpick wouldn't work anymore

 

[Xyzz]

I want Yoshi's egg throw on Jiggs replacing sing and Link's bombs (or Peach turnips... probably turnips :D) replacing roll out :D

 

[KrIsP!]

I want Yoshi's egg throw on Jiggs replacing sing and Link's bombs replacing roll out :D

So you just want her to live forever?

Is it to much to ask for Ness to have Falcon's stomp, fox's shine and marth's grab range?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ness needs his dair to come out like frame 6-8, his dash attack to be a solid 10% hit (or redistributed to 1-1-9) so it can work vs knocked over foes, and faster vertical accel on his FJ and SH. Helps him way more than a simple move replacement aside from maybe Falco's laser.

 

[Xyzz]

So you just want her to live forever?

Is it to much to ask for Ness to have Falcon's stomp, fox's shine and marth's grab range?

I was mostly thinking about the hilarity of the futility to platform camp a character with those zoning projectiles :D

Also wouldn't Ness also need a way to avoid his currently almost guaranteed death if he's put offstage? I wouldn't see him to be too good with any move replacements that don't do something about this, though I'd have to admit that my Ness experience is pretty limited :D

 

[KrIsP!]

Was under the impression we were only tehorizing move swaps. He wouldn't be good, I just want those moves. Maybe give him all of Falco's specials and see how he does with that.

 

[Kimimaru]

Ness lacks range so he needs more speed and less lag on his aerials. His recovery is good in terms of distance and options, but it gets interrupted way too easily. The strong hitbox for PK Thunder II should last longer.

Ness needs his dair to come out like frame 6-8, his dash attack to be a solid 10% hit (or redistributed to 1-1-9) so it can work vs knocked over foes, and faster vertical accel on his FJ and SH. Helps him way more than a simple move replacement aside from maybe Falco's laser.

Agreed.

 

[Ripple]

if ness' dair was frame 8 that'd still be faster than SDR Ness dair. which is ridiculous

 

[Mahone]

i haven't played since august, and i'm intentionally not playing until apex so i can do money matches to see how many bad kids i can embarrass.

sh triple laser > threat of rest = hilarious

uhh, alright i guess

stuff

I don't disagree with anything you said here and i thought of most of this before i made my post... I thought lasers would make peach puff unwinnable, it would bring mus where she gets camped closer to her side, and would just help vs characters she beats....

With all that being said, i still stand by the fact that i don't see how this is so obviously SS tier... my main reasoning is that i truly believe fox would still win the mu

@starking:

also, i still think armada ylink counter would work, itd be weaker for sure, but most of the stuff would still work (again because the main issue is puffs speed)

 

[The Star King]

if ness' dair was frame 8 that'd still be faster than SDR Ness dair. which is ridiculous

Smash64 Ness's dair starts at frame 5, according to ant-d's chart... which has been shown to have inaccuracies. But still, it can't be off by more than a few frames. And they gave ProjectM Ness his 64 dair. lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

I was mostly thinking about the hilarity of the futility to platform camp a character with those zoning projectiles :D

Also wouldn't Ness also need a way to avoid his currently almost guaranteed death if he's put offstage? I wouldn't see him to be too good with any move replacements that don't do something about this, though I'd have to admit that my Ness experience is pretty limited :D

If I had to give him a recovery then I'd probably just make his Psi Magnet similar to Brawl in that he can use it to shift to the side. In Brawl (iirc) the amount he propels himself is contingent on whether he's built momentum from PK Fire or DJ but I think in Melee I'd just make him capable of reeling himself sideways when airborne.

I think I'd also make his gravity modifier a bit weaker so he would pop out of Sheik's CG earlier, which is admittedly a problem for him. I also think he needs a frame 3 nair with some chunky KB and a slight range buff because it occurs to me he has no real combo break at all, which is a problem. The other DJCers have some sort of defense built in that compensates a lack of DJ to escape - Mewtwo has massive air mobility, teleport, and an amazing recovery; Yoshi has a DJC that prevents weak moves from stunning and a chunky counterattack after he's hit (nair); Peach has her float (to stall out in the air after she's been comboed), a frame 3 nair, chunky weight, high air mobility, the parasol, and a good air dodge. Ness has... an air dodge. That's insufficient. A nair and an air dodge is reasonable.

Ness is honestly just missing moves to fill situations in combat and the cool / unique thing about him (DJC abuse) is hindered by how crap his attacks actually are. By buffing his aerials (dair's AC properties enable some sick pressure stuff if you speed it up, a frame 3 nair with 14% and a 7 frame l-cancel breaks even when done low on a shield [opening up additional pressure and fixing other problems]) you just emphasize his existing strengths and how he's largely played now, without needing to give him broken moves that become abusive (shine, lasers, etc).

@ Mahone

I'm not sure Fox would actually win the MU straight up upon further contemplation because YS, FoD, FD, and PS don't really facilitate platform camping very well IMO as it currently is. And lasers help her maintain control there. But I'm largely splitting hairs. Regardless of how much or how little her game vs Fox improves, I feel her MU improvements vs other characters would justify her status as the best character. Her main issue vs Fox is that she lacks Falco's u-tilt to compliment the lasers; she can't abuse him jumping overhead the same way. Although admittedly her uair still isn't a bad substitute for Falco's u-tilt, its slower startup and brief duration is problematic and hinders its utility.

@ Ripple

If we're going to get technical, SDR Ness has so many things that are way more ridiculous than frame 6-8 dair I literally have no idea where to begin. But I'll try to explain anyway. SDR Ness is mainly broken IMO because of his PK Flash edgeguard (way too fast, way too powerful), grab game, Yo-yo edgeguards, AC PK Fire, the shine, and everything else being more cohesive in general. I also think PK Fire hits downwards (judging from you vs Pseudo-Turtle) which is ridiculous given it's basically a spiking projectile sex kick (think about that) and it can't be teched. This is without getting into his speed buff.

In general, I don't think general speed is the issue. His speed is already decent on the ground, his problem is vertical acceleration is bad and limits how he can follow, he's missing a move to hit knocked over opponents if they're any amount of distance from him, his combos vs floaties suck, his crouch game is terrible, he has no OOS game, and his game vs shield is limited.

By improving his dash attack, nair, dair, tweaking Psi Magnet to allow momentum shift, and letting his FJ accelerate faster you address most of the above without really modifying Ness as a character. I could go through why, but I assure you the above affords cohesion without drastically remodeling Ness.

Frame 8 Ness dair is also FWIW still worse than Falco's dair because Ness's impressive BKB is overshadowed by Falco's ability to l-cancel into shine into his entire relevant moveset. Ness's ability to AC the dair into jab, jump again, and grab as a mixup is significantly less impressive.

 

[john!]

Rather, give character minor tweaks instead of entirely different moves. I.E. Make Fox have less lag.

you can't have negative lag... i think

 

[Deleted member]

Ness has a fundamentally flawed design, I'd hate to be the person trying to "fix" him without making him hella ****ing annoying or outright terrible.

 

[Landry]

you can't have negative lag... i think

seriously...

 

[Fletch]

Ness has a fundamentally flawed design, I'd hate to be the person trying to "fix" him without making him hella ****ing annoying or outright terrible.

Why? He seems to be plenty fair, albeit annoying, in SSB64.

 

[The Star King]

He's not good in 64 though. Relatively speaking. Better than the poop Melee bottom tiers which Ness is a part of.

I actually thought the autocancel PK Fire they gave Ness in SDR looked pretty cool not gonna lie. PSI Magnet and PK Flash seem dumb though.

 

[Beat!]

Gee, Star King, haven't you heard? 64 Ness is great if you play him correctly.

 

[Vudujin]

As far as melee Ness goes I feel like he would be "pretty viable tier" if he had:

-A hitbox on PSI magnet (like in the remix) maybe a faster frame startup
-The N64 dair
-The DJC momentum from N64 (You could do wavedash-like "swoops" if you timed your cancel right and cover all roll options to spam dair
-PK Fire from N64
-Yoyo speed and hitbox from N64 (Usmash OoS would be awesome if it were faster and had more knockback)
-Redesigned PK Thunder. . . . I like the challenge of the recovery personally, but if I could reprogram the design then it would go a lil something like this:

The thunder would have a controlled trail like normal, but instead of hitting yourself to recover you'd position it where you would want to go then press B again, and he'd teleport to where you positioned it. Once you teleport you would have the same hitbox as hitting yourself with the thunder. The thunder would have two layers of hitboxes. The inner ring would resemble his fair; something you could get stuck in but DI out of, the outer ring would be a meteor hitbox. When an opponent gets hit by it they have the option of waiting in the fair hitbox only to get hit by the teleporting Ness, DI'ing out of it and getting meteor smashed only to have Ness get launched into special landfall lag, while you're on the ground ready to counter attack, They don't DI and the Ness doesn't teleport, or they do DI and the Ness doesn't teleport.

By that logic it could still be counter positioned by the opponent. If the Ness is recovering offstage and is aiming for the ledge the opponent could jump in front of it so he wouldn't get it to the ledge leaving him with the option of falling to his death or teleporting into the opp. with both of them dying if there's no tech option for the opp.

Aggressively speaking this would give Ness that vertical follow-up onstage. Anytime you would uair combo you could finish with up-b, and even if they DI they get meteor smashed back to you if you haven't decided to teleport into them.

tl;dr

Special moves pretty much make or break a character's tier. Ness has very bad special moves. His PK thunder should be changed into something more thought/option based

I'll try and draw this out in paint or something for those visual learners out there.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It'd be nice if hitting the opponent with PK thunder (the projectile) didn't put you into special fall, and PK thunder (the projectile) was decently faster

 

[Vudujin]

Yeah, even if they made it like Lucas's like you're saying it would be a step up. He's just so vulnerable once you push upB.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

so basically...if he was 64 ness rofl

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He should keep yoyo glitch regardless of changes just because it's so hype

 

[Vudujin]

The only N64 things are his specials, yoyo, and Dair.

Plus I just had a dream about that PK Thunder thing last night, and I was like . . . .
wow you know who would care about this. . . . Smashboards

 

[KrIsP!]

Well, who else?

I don't know about having him teleport, I hate his upB but like using 1 and 2 for things besides recovery. It moves so slowly though, and your literally telegraphing where you want to go. Maybe if upon hitting your self you could mash 1 of 4 directions in the direction of where you hit with the projectile instead of having the projectile dictate your direction.

Let me reword that; hit yourself in the left, have a few frames to choose up, right and both right diagonals instead of where you hit dictating your direction. That way you still keep the good things about PK1 and 2 but can speed up recovery, projectile should be faster still though. Also, he could use puff's air dodge for close to the stage recovery. Breaking out PK thunder when your just out of ledge grab ranges ****ing suckkkksssss.

 

[Kimimaru]

That gave me an idea. How about he can curve his trajectory after he's hit with PK Thunder? As an example let's say he's under the ledge and he hits himself straight up with PK Thunder:

-He can curve to the right so he can avoid getting F-smashed
-Then he can curve up so he can reach the ledge

This gives him more recovery options while still preserving the idea of his original recovery.

 

[john!]

tl;dr

Special moves pretty much make or break a character's tier.

not really... marth, sheik, and falcon all have pretty mediocre specials.

 

[VietGeek]

sheik and falcon at least have one that helps their design become more cohesive and dangerous

marth's are all mediocre but together they make his entire design deadlier. again the fact that they are cohesive to his design negates how independently they're pretty much trash (gestalt).

compared to characters like kirby or ness where their specials are largely useless and more like vestigial fodder, mediocre is pretty good.

edit: i think if we removed the invincibility on dolphin slash, it may actually help marth. it's just there to make sure nothing can trade with it (gonna assume it can't clank with anything but projectiles because marth is airborne once the hitboxes come out). it could become marth's only decent trade considering the frame advantage he could muster from it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see how removing invincibility from something can ever help the character in question, can you elaborate?