Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

SD Remix Pichu is banned.

We can discuss SD Remix Kirby vs. The A Button further in private if you want. I think I see where you're coming from, but I feel the A Button has more flexibility and solid points overall whereas SD Remix Kirby is just bullcrap at the most aggravating times possible and it feels like he's killing you for no reason. That said, it's definitely close IMO.



edit:

We're letting items back before we let SD Remix Pichu back in. He's literally too fast for how the game is played. It's like entering a bicycle race with the Batmobile.

 

[Bones0]

That list is pretty ridiculous. Marth above Peach? LOL

 

[Juushichi]

Does it feel like SDR Kirby is killing you for no reason because he physically looks like Kirby?

I think it's pretty obvious that SDR Kirby > The A Button though. He even has a better MU spread.

 

[Deleted member]

i'm pretty sure the old Brawl+ Ness is a thing of legend.

 

[Hatcrab Zombie]

I second the motion to put SD Pichu above SD Ness. Insane recovery, way too fast and instant moves that hit way too hard.

Edit: Or there could be like a billion posts while I keep this tab open so this is no longer relevant.

 

[Juushichi]

SDR Pichu is banned though, HC Zombie.

He is already above SDR Ness.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I added the banlist to the OP because apparently everyone's forgotten SD Remix Pichu is banned.

 

[Ripple]

I wish people had seen alpha pichu and alpha kirby.

They would have been ivan ooze tier (SSS++ tier with the nexttier being A) compared to their current state



Hey, KK what are your thoughts on a current SD remixtier list? Besides the obious jumps (kirby, ness, pichu) how do you feel the tiers are now


You don't have to be to critical, demo 2 is coming out and there are nerfs all about

 

[KirbyKaze]

In general I'm not a huge fan of making serious SD remix tiers or metagame analyses because (obvious patch reasons aside) the buffs are so drastic that the depth of the characters has expanded to the point where I'm not sure I can reliably predict how the development of the game will go. I'll use Zelda as an example. Zelda is not best char or anything right now but with Kirby and co. being nerfed in the next patch... who knows? Her mobility is good, she can play similar to the good ranged vanilla Melee characters (she's like a mix of them when she jumps, and she has Peach's dash attack, improved grab specs, improved mobility on the ground, and some other goodies), and her game overall is cohesive. Nothing really blatantly shuts her out except for Falcon's uair ad infinitum combo (but whatever she can death combo him back if she dash attacks him through something so w/e) so it's like... I dunno. How will she fare is a good question because her limits as a character aren't clear anymore. I feel this holds for most of the heavily modified characters.

I'm a much more conservative person when it comes to game changes (surprise surprise) and I feel SD Remix took a radical approach for the really bad chars (like, bottom 8ish or so - I only played like Ness and a few others and glanced over the movelist changes for like 12 characters) to improve them that while they certainly produced obviously improved characters, it's also now very hard to tell where they're going. Since so much is good, they're not as structured; versatility has improved to the point where so many styles are possible that... I dunno if I want to try and predict which ones will succeed best since the SD Remix environment is so different.

Also, a very minor note... I would never have told you Sheik's d-throw is a problem or agreed with that notion if I'd known everyone was going to be buffed to have better anti-shield game to a huge degree and be way faster to boot. But it's not a big deal. Just kind of a random note =P

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Balanced Brawl made very minor changes and still made every character viable.

 

[Ripple]

Balanced brawl got rid of DDDs CGs on everyone which basically made 2/3 the characters below him viable

Its extremely hard to balance melee without ridding sheik of her CGs

 

[Deleted member]

Balanced brawl got rid of DDDs CGs on everyone which basically made 2/3 the characters below him viable

Its extremely hard to balance melee without ridding sheik of her CGs

sheik ruined low tiers because it's ****ing sheik, not because of the CG, the CG is just a bonus.

it's extremely hard to balance sheik without her broken downthrow since she relies on it so heavily to bypass crouching.

edit: making even half the cast viable is pretty harsh on competitive play because it makes the required knowledge range much wider so it's hard to properly prepare for what you expect to play against. huge increases in viability > increases in variance > less consistent placements by the players. not that it's a bad thing, just different.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you think removing DDD makes anyone below him more viable, you need to play more MK-legal tourneys.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Low tiers don't suddenly win against Fox, Falco, Peach, Marth, etc by removing the primary threatening tool Sheik has.

 

[Bones0]

In general I'm not a huge fan of making serious SD remix tiers or metagame analyses because (obvious patch reasons aside) the buffs are so drastic that the depth of the characters has expanded to the point where I'm not sure I can reliably predict how the development of the game will go. I'll use Zelda as an example. Zelda is not best char or anything right now but with Kirby and co. being nerfed in the next patch... who knows? Her mobility is good, she can play similar to the good ranged vanilla Melee characters (she's like a mix of them when she jumps, and she has Peach's dash attack, improved grab specs, improved mobility on the ground, and some other goodies), and her game overall is cohesive. Nothing really blatantly shuts her out except for Falcon's uair ad infinitum combo (but whatever she can death combo him back if she dash attacks him through something so w/e) so it's like... I dunno. How will she fare is a good question because her limits as a character aren't clear anymore. I feel this holds for most of the heavily modified characters.

I'm a much more conservative person when it comes to game changes (surprise surprise) and I feel SD Remix took a radical approach for the really bad chars (like, bottom 8ish or so - I only played like Ness and a few others and glanced over the movelist changes for like 12 characters) to improve them that while they certainly produced obviously improved characters, it's also now very hard to tell where they're going. Since so much is good, they're not as structured; versatility has improved to the point where so many styles are possible that... I dunno if I want to try and predict which ones will succeed best since the SD Remix environment is so different.

Also, a very minor note... I would never have told you Sheik's d-throw is a problem or agreed with that notion if I'd known everyone was going to be buffed to have better anti-shield game to a huge degree and be way faster to boot. But it's not a big deal. Just kind of a random note =P

tl;dr

I don't know, man...

 

[Ripple]

sheik ruined low tiers because it's ****ing sheik, not because of the CG, the CG is just a bonus.

it's extremely hard to balance sheik without her broken downthrow since she relies on it so heavily to bypass crouching.

Sheiks grab completely obliterates bowser, yoshi, and roy.

Its not just a bonus on them, its a free 10-80%

And sheik can easily deal with crouching simply by techchasing and grabbing or attacking characters during their rolling animation (a state inwhich you cant crouch cancel. You always fall over again)

 

[Ripple]

Low tiers don't suddenly win against Fox, Falco, Peach, Marth, etc by removing the primary threatening tool Sheik has.

I wasn't saying they do, but if we ignore sheiks cg then we usually over buff the characters so they can deal with something so destructive. But then they can easily compete with the spacies and peach marth falcon.

Its really annoying

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If only we could see the effect of removing Sheik's CG on the viability of low tiers

It's a shame Nintendo didn't release different versions of the game that are also played competitively and have large, dedicated communities

Ah well, we can probably just theorycraft and assume that if such a game did exist; bowser and his friends would all be placing high in tournaments.

 

[Bones0]

If only we could see the effect of removing Sheik's CG on the viability of low tiers

It's a shame Nintendo didn't release different versions of the game that are also played competitively and have large, dedicated communities

Ah well, we can probably just theorycraft and assume that if such a game did exist; bowser and his friends would all be placing high in tournaments.

Ummmm... sorry, but you're dumb. Sheik had her CG removed in NTSC 1.3. This is common knowledge. The copies are just really rare. I heard Armada has one and brings it to tournies so Peach vs. Sheik is easier.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheiks grab completely obliterates bowser, yoshi, and roy.

Its not just a bonus on them, its a free 10-80%

And sheik can easily deal with crouching simply by techchasing and grabbing or attacking characters during their rolling animation (a state inwhich you cant crouch cancel. You always fall over again)

playing sheik is a free 10-80% on bowser roy and yoshi. the CG really doesn't matter at all.

tech chasing for 8% per throw is terrible and you should feel bad for considering them equal in any way.

these ideas backing the development plan is part of why i'll never play it.

 

[Bones0]

Sometimes, when I watch M2K, I feel like CGs don't matter.

*insert the 3 perfect tech chases I've ever seen him (or anyone) do here*

 

[Ripple]

I never once said they would do that.
@ grim

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, t'was hyperbole. Do you think they'd be placing any better in tournaments?
Because they wouldn't, and they don't.

i.e. removing Sheik's CG does jack-all.

 

[Ripple]

playing sheik is a free 10-80% on bowser roy and yoshi. the CG really doesn't matter at all.

tech chasing for 8% per throw is terrible and you should feel bad for considering them equal in any way.

these ideas backing the development plan is part of why i'll never play it.

The cg is only reason it happens on yoshi and roy. They are fully capable of handling sheik otherwise. Bowser I'm not sure on because I've not seen bowser vs sheik like ever without any sort of CGing.

And tech chasing is amazing for 8% with the amount of speed/options after the throw she gets. If they don't tech, she can jab resets most everyone and if they do she has the speed to regrab them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel stating Sheik's 10-80% on them is very one-sided because in SD Remix you're giving these characters tweaks and those are gonna have a strong impact on the MU if they wind up being a big improvement.

Like, if Roy's BnB vs Sheik as a result of his modifications turns out to be a 0-40% throw > aerial combo that can end in a variety of ways (Sheik above for extra uair damage / f-smash to put her offstage) then coupled with his dash dance and improved attacks (which outrange Sheik's and now have adequate hit properties and reduced lag) I'm just not sure that her CG is that big a deal anymore. His moves have improved - she now has to work way harder to grab him. His movement game is better in a lot of ways - she has to work hard to not get hit by him or lose footing in the positional war. His throw combo is threatening - she sucks at being above people and his edgeguarding is good on her because he has a heavy, moderate speed ground move with good KB for putting her offstage over and over.

I'm just not sure axing the CG was the only way to go about redesigning the Sheik-low tier MU. Especially since there are like 4 low tiers that actually get CGed to a severe percent. And it's not like Sheik's the only character with consistent, high damage punishes on a variety of characters anyway. I want to know why nobody ever takes away Falco's shine -_-

Oh yeah, one more thing. This is something I said about PM but it's applicable here. Sheik's style in current Melee succeeds because her limbs and how she swings them are the perfect balance for this game. They're a good chunk longer than characters with 'fast' attacks (Mario, Fox, Pikachu) but they have a convenient speed & hitbox arrangement advantage over the few characters who have similarly ranged or longer limbs (Ganon, Samus, Marth, etc). When you increase range and mobility of the characters as a whole, her style of counter-fighting gets impacted very severely because she's really big into attack vs. attack interactions to win exchanges. She doesn't have a dash dance or laser to fall back on to assert a huge berth of stage control either. Just something to think about.

 

[Deleted member]

The cg is only reason it happens on yoshi and roy. They are fully capable of handling sheik otherwise. Bowser I'm not sure on because I've not seen bowser vs sheik like ever without any sort of CGing.

And tech chasing is amazing for 8% with the amount of speed/options after the throw she gets. If they don't tech, she can jab resets most everyone and if they do she has the speed to regrab them.

you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Bones0]

Take away Sheik's CG and make her needles always shoot horizontally.

 

[Kimimaru]

But then they can easily compete with the spacies and peach marth falcon.

Its really annoying

Didn't SD Remix want to take everyone to around Falcon's level? If that's the case then I don't see a problem with this unless the characters were buffed so much that they're significantly better than everyone else.

 

[Ripple]

they were buffed too much

 

[Xyzz]

Take away Sheik's CG and make her needles always shoot horizontally.

Would that even be good for her and her short hop that keeps her in the air for ages and lack of simple "shdl"?

 

[Purpletuce]

--Banned Tier--

SD Remix Pichu
Older versions of PM Ness
Items
Yoshi's jump out of shield

--Top Tier--

Falco
Fox
Metaknight
The "B" button
Melee SD Remix Ness
PM v1.0012 Lucario (pre-update)
NTSC Sheik
UMVC3 Phoenix
Jigglypuff
Marth
Peach
Hot Chip

--High Tier--

PAL Sheik
Jona Falcon
PM Knuckles
Captain Falcon
SD Remix Zelda
Ice Climbers / Wario (ruleset dependent)
The "A" button
SD Remix Kirby
Doctor Mario

Then some mix of Snake, Ganon, Samus, Pikachu, ZSS, Luigi, and Mario for mid tier. Maybe Link and DK if you're feeling generous.

Low tier is unordered because recent developments in the metagame killed them so they're dead.

I'm MBR so this list is perfect. Discuss.

I loved this. Although I just out of shield all the time with Yoshi, does that mean I should be banned? (Jump out of parry or shield drop into jump)

Sheiks grab completely obliterates bowser, yoshi, and roy.

Its not just a bonus on them, its a free 10-80%

And sheik can easily deal with crouching simply by techchasing and grabbing or attacking characters during their rolling animation (a state inwhich you cant crouch cancel. You always fall over again)

I think you overestimate the effect of the CG, it isn't that gamebreaking. Yeah it sucks, but I can speak for Yoshi when I say there are also some options around it. Against Sheik I try to platform or edge camp as much as possible and Yoshi has some devastating things as well, such as DJC U-airs racking up damage, and Yoshi outliving Sheik by a sizeable margin. Still a horrible MU, but it isn't like it is helpless. I've 4 stocked a competitive Sheik before. . .

 

[VietGeek]

playing sheik is a free 10-80% on bowser roy and yoshi. the CG really doesn't matter at all.

tech chasing for 8% per throw is terrible and you should feel bad for considering them equal in any way.

these ideas backing the development plan is part of why i'll never play it.

wait when was sheik's dthrow made into a tech chase or pal-esque throw in sd remix to begin with?

obv

 

[Stevo]

I'm a much more conservative person when it comes to game changes (surprise surprise) and I feel SD Remix took a radical approach for the really bad chars (like, bottom 8ish or so - I only played like Ness and a few others and glanced over the movelist changes for like 12 characters) to improve them that while they certainly produced obviously improved characters, it's also now very hard to tell where they're going. Since so much is good, they're not as structured; versatility has improved to the point where so many styles are possible that... I dunno if I want to try and predict which ones will succeed best since the SD Remix environment is so different.

This is basically how I feel about it as well. Now SD remix is stuck in the pendulum swing of nerfs and buffs, with little noticeable direction. I almost feel like the project needs to restart. It needs to take melee and build off the 10+ years of development there and use that knowledge to tweak the lower tiers to be more viable. To completely change them invites chaos and basically throws out the knowledge we have gained from 10 years of melee.

I'm sure SD remix is fun to play for a few hours, but if the intention is to be something lasting, it needs to be much more conservative.

 

[Ripple]

I'm pretty sure we aren't buffing a single character in demo 2. so we don't need to restart at all.

and this will never become long lasting like PM, the accessibility of this is ridiulous

 

[Stevo]

well not restart per se
just re-evaluate maybe

If the goal is not long term, then I guess it's fine.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think the solution is to have all the people who wants their characters to be improved switch to high tiers. If any tweaks are made, they should be marginal.

 

[Voltz]

Those smashboards legends know Marth is such a terrible char. Don't even dare to try make Marth sound like a better char then he is.

Marth is not better then mid and is not to far away from becoming a low-tier. Afterall Pikachu is also having better results then Marth this days =)

No, Marth only loses to Shiek and maybe Spacies and Puff to a degree. He is A tier.

 

[VietGeek]

to this day the e-humor match-up remains largely unknown to many

just like mewtwo v. zelda

obv

 

[Twinkles]

No, Marth only loses to Shiek and maybe Spacies and Puff to a degree. He is A tier.

Even if sarcasm over the internet is harder to identify than sarcasm irl, i can't believe you didn't get it

 

[Kink-Link5]

I thought Armada was famous for his distaste in Bones Logic by now.