Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Landry]

Those smashboards legends know Marth is such a terrible char. Don't even dare to try make Marth sound like a better char then he is.

Marth is not better then mid and is not to far away from becoming a low-tier. Afterall Pikachu is also having better results then Marth this days =)

Where would you say Marth falls on the tier list? I can't imagine him being behind Doc, Ganon, Samus, etc.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya but I can beat every single Marth, NP. Marth is worse than Ganon.

 

[Landry]

Ya but I can beat every single Marth, NP. Marth is worse than Ganon.

As a character? Or just vs you?

Also - I'd probably put money on M2K in a Marth vs Ganon match. Just because there aren't many good Marths these days doesn't mean they're all bad.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Marth is worse than Ganon.

Edit: Nm, even some top players are ridiculous lol.

 

[Stevo]

I think there is like 4 levels of trolling going on here.

 

[Divinokage]

As a character? Or just vs you?

Also - I'd probably put money on M2K in a Marth vs Ganon match. Just because there aren't many good Marths these days doesn't mean they're all bad.

It would be a good match, indeed. I was just saying for me... just like Axe can probably defeat all marths too.

Thank you Ian for emphasizing the joke.

 

[Jiv]

I think pikachu is defo better than ganon.

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon had better success overall through out the players and the years.

 

[Jiv]

I didn't say is more successful

Besides, in recent history (which is what the tier list is supposed to reflect) pikachu has been doing better. And there's one important main of each right now, you and axe.

Damn this is making me want to take up pikachu

 

[Gea]

Good luck.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

inb4 he quits in two days due to not knowing how to deal with character flaws

 

[Divinokage]

I didn't say is more successful

Besides, in recent history (which is what the tier list is supposed to reflect) pikachu has been doing better. And there's one important main of each right now, you and axe.

Damn this is making me want to take up pikachu

But you have to be successful if you want to prove that a character is better or worse than he currently is. And Linguini also did really well overall, much better than all the Pikas at tournaments.

 

[KrIsP!]

I can name 10 current Ganon mains... only one pika main. I think Ganon has better match ups vs. floaties and overall hits harder. He lacks good recovery but you could force pika to recover onstage and punish him for it at times. I unno Pika is just a fox with all the good bits taken out; I don't feel he could move up much on the tier list, I like his placement now. I don't know about Pikachu doing better recently, axe has been doing better recently, that's about it.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

seriously, only one? that just means you know none of the pikachu mains.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Pikachad is really good guys :/

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Everyone sleeps on N64

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

and on pika-pika and zigzag.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

An ther

 

[Divinokage]

Ya.. that basically proves that Pika isn't that good, probably MAX as good as Ganon on the list.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

ANTHER MADE BRACKET AT POUND 3

 

[Vudujin]

Yeah, and Zig-Zag was amazing.

 

[choknater]

pikachu is legit

so is bizzarro flame

 

[Bones0]

Characters don't even matter. If you can't win with low tiers, you just have to try harder. That's why Kage and Axe are successful. We should just lock this thread 'til the metagame pans out a bit more. We'll meet back here in 2020.

Stay as salty as your tiers, *****es.

 

[Purpletuce]

Where I really feel Peach/Sheik pull away from Marth is really how they do vs The C-D characters. Not that Marth sucks vs them but Alot of very good C-D tier Mains upset good Marth players in pools or early in tournament just because of Marth's limitations with Recovery or lack of frame safety sometimes. Where as Sheik and Peach kind of dominate Most of their C-D tier Match-ups even against really good opposition.

Agreed.

Damn this is making me want to take up pikachu

Why does everyone from AZ think they are a low tier hero?

If you can't win with low tiers, you just have to try harder.

Working on it.

I can name 10 current Ganon mains... only one pika main.

I can name more Yoshi mains than any character below top 7. Obviously Yoshi is #8. . . but he isn't.

You can improve just by improving your tech skill with a space animal, where as it's harder to improve alone with other characters, as you are limited by things such as experience in situations or intelligence (without tech skill being as great of a factor),

I like this. Truth. (except for a few little things)

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would be cautious about listening to M2K's comments on space animal improvement unless you're a top 50 player or so. Most people have awful execution in this game even with less technically intensive characters and it definitely shows =X

 

[odinNJ]

yeah, and execution comes with raw practice and time. Also @ low tiers. They are awful, thats the point

 

[ZetTroxX]

Also @ low tiers. They are awful, thats the point

Imo they´re not as awful as most people think they are. Most if not all of them are underrepresented. E. g. before Axe, lots of people thought Pika wasn´t good at all - and he proofed them wrong.

I´d like to see on of the real top smashers picking a low tier a tourney long a see how far he can go. I don´t think Armadas Kirby would lose everything because this char is so "flawed". Sure he wouldn´t place that high but it would be interesting to see. Or imagine Mango still doing the Scorpion Master.

 

[Archangel]

Imo they´re not as awful as most people think they are. Most if not all of them are underrepresented. E. g. before Axe, lots of people thought Pika wasn´t good at all - and he proofed them wrong.

I´d like to see on of the real top smashers picking a low tier a tourney long a see how far he can go. I don´t think Armadas Kirby would lose everything because this char is so "flawed". Sure he wouldn´t place that high but it would be interesting to see. Or imagine Mango still doing the Scorpion Master.

I think Armada's Kirby would peak out at round 3 pools. Not that Kirby can't be played well. He can, A good Kirby can give characters like Marth, Ganon, Falcon some trouble. Get some good gimps off Spacies, Also hard for IC's to fight as well. Just, most people don't waste time playing a Character that will lose at the highest level no matter who plays him. In fact I'm not even sure a theory crafted frame perfect TAS Kirby could win a tournament.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I'm not even sure a theory crafted frame perfect TAS Kirby could win a tournament.

 

[Archangel]

Is that from Wobbles's Cap cam?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Since we were talking about Peach, I'll give you guys some simple input... her MUs, in my opinion. Peach's number is always on the left.

Fox - 45/55 on most levels, 60-40 for Fox on PS, 60-40 for Peach on FD
Marth - 45/55 on most levels, 60/40 for Marth on YS, 60/40 for Peach on DL64
Sheik - 40/60
Puff - 40/60
Falco - 50/50
Falcon - 50/50
ICs - I dunno. I wanna say 70/30 for most ICs but much closer if you're Wobbles (40-60) since he's actually 80x better at it than everyone else.
Doc - 60/40 (Alan convinced me, watched him in action in real life, Doc isn't that good but d-throw fair kills at like 85% so it's cool)
Ganon - 60/40 (turnips, combos)
Samus - unsure, maybe 55/45 since beam is good and so is not being comboed by Peach
Pikachu - 60/40 (shield, d-smash, basic defense, heavy hits)
Luigi - 60/40 (jabs are important in this one, as is keeping him locked down - don't pull turnips when he can wavesmash you)
Mario - 60/40 fire is lame and so is uair comboing but float back, shield, and being lame wins more
DK - 70/30 because no shield and Peach combos harder unless he can punch her somehow and turnips are lame and dash attack beats his bair too much
Link - 60/40 maybe closer but Pink Shinobi was real and Link's shield grab isn't but then again his uair is so maybe idk



I know a lot of these values seem low but I feel her speed limits how much she can shut the opponent down, even if her combat game is really tight in terms of technical data (frames, reaction windows, etc). Speed limits how much she can do it and empowers rolling and other movement defenses until the opponent gets cornered basically, which isn't always a death sentence anyway because invulnerable ledgedash by Marios and various other characters. In a bizarre way, it also limits her movement game's mixups since she only has a few ways of manipulating space between herself and the foe but that's some deep ish that doesn't belong on the boards yet =X

Anyway, for these reasons (and her combos being unreliable or non-existent in some MUs aside from maybe 1 or 2 specific things she can get at some percent), I feel Peach is not as good vs the mid tier and bizarre characters as Marth overall IMO. Marth really ***** some of them super hard but Peach doesn't but Peach's MUs with them requires almost no learning curve since her combos are all the same in every MU and there's no real percents game with her stuff. Marth is required to know a lot.

Like, I think Marth ***** Link really hard. But he needs to know when Link can be u-thrown into things (if ever), how his techs work, nuances of beating his recovery, etc. Peach just sort of floats into a pressure sequence and Link doesn't really get **** comboed unless he lets it happen (since his weight is okay for escape plus she's slow and his combo break options in the air are okay vs her) but it's hard for him to interact with it.

Same thing with like... Mario. I think Marth is better in the MU but Peach's stuff is the same stuff she does to every character.

I also tend to feel Marth has a really high learning curve though. Since his MUs all require him to modify his DD and other stuff to suit the new significant ranges and other stuff.

The exceptions to the above are basically Pikachu (who I think is okayish vs Marth and have felt this way since before Ken so don't give me that), ICs (since they've worked on this one and play it super lame), and maybe Ganon (I swear his DD obliterates Ganon and Vwins's crappy Marth has wrecked Kage many times before my eyes with basic anti-Ganon stuff but idk maybe Kage was high or something - in region is weird and has questionable validity). Anyway... I'm getting off topic. It just so happens that those three characters are piloted in high level circles instead of one of the numerous other useless mid tiers. Go figure. I think if there were more Samus players, Luigi players, Zelda players, and like... I dunno. Puffs. Then Marth would suddenly look way better (this is where smash having a tiny player pool is a drag since it limits how many characters actually get played even when there's a bunch at similar power level like the mid tiers). Or if more people just played Fox since that's what Marth's main source of happiness has been since like 2K7... eating the Fox players.

Also, this is gonna sound weird but I think more Peaches in the field would be good for him. I think this because aside from like... VaNz, Vwins, and MacD*... for a while most of the medium-high level Marths (HBK, IB, etc) beat the other Peaches iirc. It's just in the higher circles that Marth starts to lose IMO and I'm still not convinced that's 100% Marth's fault since those Peaches (VaNz, MacD, Vwins, etc) also won a lot of their locals and placed higher even when they didn't take out the Marths.

I dunno.

Maybe I'm wrong and Marth sucks. Maybe I'm right and he's good. But I really don't feel I've seen anything conclusive either way the entire time this topic has plagued the community. Maybe we should just accept it's a gray area and focus on a new one. Like Sheik vs ICs or something. I think uair is good vs ICs as Sheik. What do you think? And what about Puff YL? Is it time for Armada to learn another secondary? Or is the MU actually a fair MU? Or does Puff actually get 7-3ed like phanna's old chart would suggest? Find out on the next episode of "The Metagame!"



* Armada is obviously excluded because he beats everyone.

 

[Archangel]

Peach's MU's IMO

Peach's number is always on the left

Fox - 45/55 on most levels, 60-40 for Fox on PS, 60-40 for Peach on FD
Marth - 45/55 on most levels, 60/40 for Marth on YS, 60/40 for Peach on DL64
Sheik - 40/60
Puff - 40/60
Falco - 50/50
Falcon - 50/50
ICs - I dunno. I wanna say 70/30 for most ICs but much closer if you're Wobbles (40-60) since he's actually 80x better at it than everyone else.
Doc - 60/40 (Alan convinced me, watched him in action in real life, Doc isn't that good but d-throw fair kills at like 85% so it's cool)
Ganon - 60/40 (turnips, combos)
Samus - unsure, maybe 55/45 since beam is good and so is not being comboed by Peach
Pikachu - 60/40 (shield, d-smash, basic defense, heavy hits)
Luigi - 60/40 (jabs are important in this one, as is keeping him locked down - don't pull turnips when he can wavesmash you)
Mario - 60/40 fire is lame and so is uair comboing but float back, shield, and being lame wins more
DK - 65/35 because no shield and Peach combos harder unless he can punch her somehow
Link - 60/40 maybe closer but Pink Shinobi was real and Link's shield grab isn't

I think this is pretty accurate. What about Peach vs the rest of the cast though

In all honesty Samus can do well vs Peach....but I think that MU requires an insane amount of knowledge for a Samus to play it. Most Samus players get wrecked by a D smash simply from being so use to CC'ing everything. Not to mention the Veggies ruin Samus recovery.

Do Marth next. I'm interested in seeing what you come out with.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Eh. I'm not sure I'll do that. Largely because I'm sort of floating around and trying to find how I feel about a bunch of his important MUs. I've been talking with PP about them lately. And he's really creative and has some seriously good ideas - he's really opened my eyes to Marth's abilities. It's kind of like some of the stuff I found or molded with Sheik, but more sophisticated since he's a bit more structured of a thinker than me... and better at this lol.

Anyway, tangent. My hesitation with doing that is that I don't play Marth much so it's mostly theory (I play Peach a lot and vs IB & Weon for long sessions sometimes and they're both solid and have poured a lot of hours into her so I don't feel it's just "lol I think this because numbers"). But with Marth I would be doing that. I'm really not sure it's fair to base his MUs off PP's theories and methods since PP is also a top level player and if I do that then his results will invariably bias me towards his stuff favourably and I may overrate the fencer.

Then again I know I do it with a lot of Armada even if I try to limit bias. Like, if I went purely off Armada vs Ganon and Pika I would writing those as 70-30s but I try to scale them down since I'm pretty sure he's just outclassing his competition. But it's difficult to decide where that point is. And I'm gonna be doing that with like... every non-obvious ratio. That's a headache...

And this is compounded by the fact that Marth's MUs tend to be controversial. Maybe a few months ago I would, but I've had enough controversy here lately so I think I'm gonna decline that one.

 

[Archangel]

Eh. I'm not sure I'll do that. Largely because I'm sort of floating around and trying to find how I feel about a bunch of his important MUs. I've been talking with PP about them lately. And he's really creative and has some seriously good ideas - he's really opened my eyes to Marth's abilities. It's kind of like some of the stuff I found or molded with Sheik, but more sophisticated since he's a bit more structured of a thinker than me... and better at this lol.

Anyway, tangent. My hesitation with doing that is that I don't play Marth much so it's mostly theory (I play Peach a lot and vs IB & Weon for long sessions sometimes and they're both solid and have poured a lot of hours into her so I don't feel it's just "lol I think this because numbers"). But with Marth I would be doing that. I'm really not sure it's fair to base his MUs off PP's theories and methods since PP is also a top level player and if I do that then his results will invariably bias me towards his stuff favourably and I may overrate the fencer.

Then again I know I do it with a lot of Armada even if I try to limit bias. Like, if I went purely off Armada vs Ganon and Pika I would writing those as 70-30s but I try to scale them down since I'm pretty sure he's just outclassing his competition. But it's difficult to decide where that point is. And I'm gonna be doing that with like... every non-obvious ratio. That's a headache...

And this is compounded by the fact that Marth's MUs tend to be controversial. Maybe a few months ago I would, but I've had enough controversy here lately so I think I'm gonna decline that one.

Well rather than assuming it's an anomaly why not for the time being assume that it's a combination of the player being very good and therefore bringing the character to the highest level(so far). I never understood why you had to choose 1 POV over the other.

When Mango and Hbox started winning with Puff it's safe to assume 2 things rather than 1.

1. Mango and Hbox are very good players.
2. Puff was a better character than most thought.

Now, As for Marth. I think alot of his MU's even up(not to say they are even) but Most people's assumptions of Marth vs ____ are based on outdated information regarding both Marth, the character he's playing against, as well as the ruleset being used currently.

Not many people play Marth exclusively these days. The ones that do will tell you that alot of assumptive easy wins for marth mainly vs Everyone below B-tier are nowhere near 65-35 to 80-20 the ways everyone seems to think they are.

I'd say of all the Characters in the top 8 Marth has the most 50-50 or 55-45 MUs vs characters below B-tier. But...that's my opinion and it's also very controversial.

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm

marth ratios

marth fox 55-45 (there is no reason fox should be able to outpace your damage..if you get hit 5 times in a row with nair without landing grab; you're either stupid or really unlucky, switch up your dash dance timings.)

marth falco 45-55
marth pp's falco 35-65
marth pp's falco 1.5 years ago when he actually knew how to laser before he was so much better than everyone that it didn't matter and he became lazy (0-100)
marth falco with perfect powershielding 60-40

marth peach probably would have put it at 40-60 a week ago, but i learned to camp dash attack with marth on big stages after i started playing peach, so 45-55 (damn I love this matchup as peach..marth can't jump safely at all..he can't stay on the ground safely without respecting your dash attack, which lets you slowly eat stage until the marth runs out of room on small stages. on the big stages you can't really approach and the marth can technically play lame and prevent you from pulling turnips..but that still doesn't mean you need to approach..marth has no safe approach on you so you just refuse to approach without pulling turnips..it's great...and yeah i have a feeling peach is pretty likely to lose if she gets down vs marth on big stages and the marth is campy and patient)

marth vs sheik (marth plays perfect) 45:55
otherwise 40:60


marth vs IC 50:50
marth vs falcon 50:50
marth vs jiggs 55-45
marth seems to have a lot of 55-45s on the lower characters where fox/falco would have 65-35 or better. Part of what makes marth bad is that you need to play well in too many of your sets

peach ratios

peach vs fox feels evenish 50:50
peach vs falco (feels like it's peach's favor 55-45)
peach vs sheik 50-50 (don't start approaching too much and start getting your fairs dashdance grabbed or it seems to rapidly become 30-70 or worse)

peach vs marth 55:45
peach vs falcon no freaking clue; feels as hard as fox; surprising..i usually think of falcon as just a bad char.
peach vs ICs 60-40
peach vs jiggs 30-70
peach everyone else peach advantage. solidly

also i'm really bad at peach; so you probably shouldn't trust anything i say..but it at least explains why i'm switching. I definitely haven't regretted it yet though (except vs jiggs OMG!!! but then i get to play a jiggs main once in a while so i figure i will at least be decent at it..may just go marth though)

 

[KirbyKaze]

KP, get on AIM

 

[Wobbles]

Is that from Wobbles's Cap cam?

arrrrghhhh

pick someone elllllsssseeee

other people throw the damn things too

 

[Archangel]

arrrrghhhh

pick someone elllllsssseeee

other people throw the damn things too

I always pick you because I love you.

No worries, My roomate chunks the controller in friendlies.

 

[Stevo]

In Alberta, it's called pulling a Randall. It's also the same person who the cloud on Yoshi's was named after.
He doesn't play anymore, but his legacy lives on.

(as a side note, he was probably the best tournament organizer we have ever had and was an all around good dude, he just had some smash rage)

 

[S l o X]

to me it's naturally the mattdotzeb

he's far and away the person who has thrown the controller the most in my region

also the only person i've made do it