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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
HyugaRicdeau
Baller/Shot-caller
Yeah, waveshining is just the most obvious example, what you said about moves near the blast zones is the general idea and I totally agree. I don't know if in practice it actually overcentralizes on gimmicks near the blastzones though. I think for some matchups, a character camping the side platforms (not so much camping the sides, but camping to prevent the other player from getting up there from the middle platform) may be pretty difficult to overcome.
We actually had MK2 legal in teams at a recent local tourney here just for the **** of it and it did get played a few times. It was pretty cool. The only 'janky' deaths that happened were people not teching the side walls and instantly dying. But at this point in the game people are good enough with their DI and teching that it's hard to say it's more the stage's fault than the player's.
There's also birdo's eggs. They hit like stitch faces normally if you grab them and seem to have a much higher chance to explode. I actually keep mk2 on so I play it pretty frequently. It's a pretty jank stage to be honest.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i love that fox/sheik can 2nd jump from the lower edges and grab the eggs and then air dodge back to the higher edges. huge fairness lol
pokemongeof
Smash Lord
Doesn't anyone else think that Luigi is underrated?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Not really.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Idk why, but I have the feeling you're a little too biased to be making that call.
pokemongeof
Smash Lord
i understand it might seem blased, and i know the tier list is fair, but im just saying that if someone were playing as luigi in a match that they shouldn't be 100% counted out
Fortress | Sveet
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Luigi is right where he belongs. He has decent ground mobility, but he has severely exploitable faults. One of which is that despite his range after a wavedash, he has a hard time doing anything if the opponent is pressuring him from inside that range. Also, once he takes to the air, his mobility is trash both vertically and horizontally.
Like you said, it is possible to win with him, don't get me wrong. He isn't kirby tier. He has some good combos and decent mixups, but all-in-all his match-ups are too subpar to have him moving up. He is probably near DK in that "fun to watch in a combo video but I feel bad watching tournament matches because of how one sided it is" tier.
Like you said, it is possible to win with him, don't get me wrong. He isn't kirby tier. He has some good combos and decent mixups, but all-in-all his match-ups are too subpar to have him moving up. He is probably near DK in that "fun to watch in a combo video but I feel bad watching tournament matches because of how one sided it is" tier.
Griffard
Smash Ace
Yup. Dude, excited to see Loosh's Weeg. How is it? btw I'm back in 9 days. And I'm maining Doc. Get ready.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I don't think Luigi can go up much. Maybe further than Mario (if you put Mario higher) but I don't think he's joining Doc and ICs any time soon unless something's figured out that helps him a ton vs the spacies and Sheik. As it stands, I feel it's too easy for Fox, Falco, and Sheik to put a lid on Luigi and they have simple combos or positional stuff that he can't really negotiate without outplaying them. Outplaying someone is never a good option. However, it's better than lacking the option entirely as a result of a speed deficit or incomplete moveset (lightshield on the top plat of BF or DL vs Pichu when you're up a stock - it's hilarious) so there's some consolation there. That said, it still sucks.
To his credit, he doesn't have a MU as bad as Sheik is for Ganon. But these aren't much better.
Let's start with Fox. Basically, Fox's gimping and ability to leverage advantage when Luigi is above him is really lame. He has the speed to shut down WD approaches off positioning with his dash dance and can punish whiffs really easily 'cuz speed. This can sort of be circumvented by Luigi with good ledgedashing (he ledgedashes to regain stage as he's pressed to the edge) but ledgedashing has flaws and Fox can take to the plats to stall it out effectively and then resume threatening with his plan. Luigi's big thing is his ground control, but he maintain this vs Fox. Luigi's heavy punishment on Fox helps but Fox's gimping and u-tilt / uair / shield > shine / bair suite does a lot of damage to Luigi and keeps pace really well IMO (takes more finesse than WD d-smash over and over into an aerial but it's really good). I think this is a **** MU. Less **** than Falco and Sheik unless you also platform camp to prey on his awful aerial mobility when you're a stock or two up but few people will do that so functionally its less ****.
Gonna spend less time on the next two. Falco's kind of obvious. Falco has lasers to severely hinder movement and the combat tools to shut down Luigi's crouch game. Luigi's weak shield counterattacks are really problematic vs Falco. In terms of punishment, Falco has legit brief air combos but can also force techs to bypass Luigi's resistance to direct air combos. His grab has a lot of threat vs Luigi if you're tossing him offstage and his huge jumps are good for countering high recoveries and sharking descents by Luigi (if he commits to anything, you can probably bair it). Dair is vicious vs side-B recoveries and his ways to avoid the dair force him into exploitable low recoveries. **** MU.
Sheik has her throw, needles, and a SH that goes over his u-smash / u-tilt (and that's actually a problem since it limits the utility of his mobile anti-airs). She also has the best mix of consistently managing his combo break tools and kill power IMO (see: me vs Vudujin - either set). He can't keep pace if she knows how to DI his throws and when to DI for platforms. His Up+B KO doesn't work on platform levels and his other KO moves are very DIable (recovering at 120%+ is possible). **** MU.
So... yeah. I think those three are a serious problem. I don't care for number ratios but I feel those three require Luigi to really outplay the opponent to stand a chance. In contrast, Peach, Marth, ICs, Purin, and Doc aren't nearly as bad and you can probably win those playing similar quality to your opponent.
I've left out Falcon. Because with Falcon I'm on the fence. I'd be willing to debate the MU being comparably bad since platform camp (with enormous kill aerials too), dash dance game similar to Fox (but without the fast aerials and quality normals), and automatic throw KO at X% is really devastating. Uair is also amazing vs his combo break suite and Falcon can rambo offstage super hard for ultra gimps. But I could also go the other way since his moves have more flaws in general and Luigi tends to be good at move vs move interaction. He also has weaker reversals (read: complete lack of them) and can't handle close range pressure as well since his crouch game is limited. His recovery is also much worse, which helps Luigi keep pace. So yeah... I'm undecided on this one.
My thoughts on Luigi.
To his credit, he doesn't have a MU as bad as Sheik is for Ganon. But these aren't much better.
Let's start with Fox. Basically, Fox's gimping and ability to leverage advantage when Luigi is above him is really lame. He has the speed to shut down WD approaches off positioning with his dash dance and can punish whiffs really easily 'cuz speed. This can sort of be circumvented by Luigi with good ledgedashing (he ledgedashes to regain stage as he's pressed to the edge) but ledgedashing has flaws and Fox can take to the plats to stall it out effectively and then resume threatening with his plan. Luigi's big thing is his ground control, but he maintain this vs Fox. Luigi's heavy punishment on Fox helps but Fox's gimping and u-tilt / uair / shield > shine / bair suite does a lot of damage to Luigi and keeps pace really well IMO (takes more finesse than WD d-smash over and over into an aerial but it's really good). I think this is a **** MU. Less **** than Falco and Sheik unless you also platform camp to prey on his awful aerial mobility when you're a stock or two up but few people will do that so functionally its less ****.
Gonna spend less time on the next two. Falco's kind of obvious. Falco has lasers to severely hinder movement and the combat tools to shut down Luigi's crouch game. Luigi's weak shield counterattacks are really problematic vs Falco. In terms of punishment, Falco has legit brief air combos but can also force techs to bypass Luigi's resistance to direct air combos. His grab has a lot of threat vs Luigi if you're tossing him offstage and his huge jumps are good for countering high recoveries and sharking descents by Luigi (if he commits to anything, you can probably bair it). Dair is vicious vs side-B recoveries and his ways to avoid the dair force him into exploitable low recoveries. **** MU.
Sheik has her throw, needles, and a SH that goes over his u-smash / u-tilt (and that's actually a problem since it limits the utility of his mobile anti-airs). She also has the best mix of consistently managing his combo break tools and kill power IMO (see: me vs Vudujin - either set). He can't keep pace if she knows how to DI his throws and when to DI for platforms. His Up+B KO doesn't work on platform levels and his other KO moves are very DIable (recovering at 120%+ is possible). **** MU.
So... yeah. I think those three are a serious problem. I don't care for number ratios but I feel those three require Luigi to really outplay the opponent to stand a chance. In contrast, Peach, Marth, ICs, Purin, and Doc aren't nearly as bad and you can probably win those playing similar quality to your opponent.
I've left out Falcon. Because with Falcon I'm on the fence. I'd be willing to debate the MU being comparably bad since platform camp (with enormous kill aerials too), dash dance game similar to Fox (but without the fast aerials and quality normals), and automatic throw KO at X% is really devastating. Uair is also amazing vs his combo break suite and Falcon can rambo offstage super hard for ultra gimps. But I could also go the other way since his moves have more flaws in general and Luigi tends to be good at move vs move interaction. He also has weaker reversals (read: complete lack of them) and can't handle close range pressure as well since his crouch game is limited. His recovery is also much worse, which helps Luigi keep pace. So yeah... I'm undecided on this one.
My thoughts on Luigi.
Max?
Smash Champion
Luigi vs. Falcon is tough as hell. Luigi is def ***, but he's so goddamn fun to play. No one knows how to fight him and most spacies/sheiks are bad, so he can perform well in tourney. I also stand by the fact that he does have untapped jank, but doesn't matter since his defense is so bad
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
FWIW I don't think Luigi vs any of those characters is like unwinnable
I don't even think they're as bad as Sheik vs Ganon
I just think they're sucky MUs and Ganon Sheik may actually be the most slanted MU between the top 13 or so characters
I don't even think they're as bad as Sheik vs Ganon
I just think they're sucky MUs and Ganon Sheik may actually be the most slanted MU between the top 13 or so characters
The problem with luigi is that he is really predictable.
Another problem is that he's good when he is bad. His Combo game shines (lol) against the species but lasers and fox **** him so hard that his benefits are outweighed by his massive flaws
Another problem is that he's good when he is bad. His Combo game shines (lol) against the species but lasers and fox **** him so hard that his benefits are outweighed by his massive flaws
Falcon vs Luigi feels really bad from what I've played of it.
Falcon gets a really nice DD to threaten and bait Luigi with while he also gets huge moves that negate CC and crush Luigi for using his limbs. Throw combos are murderous as well. Luigi can't even edgeguard Falcon as easily as vice versa, and of course going into the air at all is asking for trouble vs those lugs(aka it's hard to zone with aerials which Luigi needs).
Falcon gets a really nice DD to threaten and bait Luigi with while he also gets huge moves that negate CC and crush Luigi for using his limbs. Throw combos are murderous as well. Luigi can't even edgeguard Falcon as easily as vice versa, and of course going into the air at all is asking for trouble vs those lugs(aka it's hard to zone with aerials which Luigi needs).
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah Falcon has long legs
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
And you know what they say about people with long legs...
D
Deleted member
Guest
they dashdance grab and kill luigi?
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
I was gunna say all the better to stomp you with...but yeah that too.
luigi taps fu the haters
falco that just down airs and like really jerkoff nair intensive falcon play are luigis only HORRENDOUS matchups
game of thrones is incredible look forward to season 2 (and 3 i guess..)
oh ganon is a good counter to luigi too
its like zelda and falcon put together *salivates*
falco that just down airs and like really jerkoff nair intensive falcon play are luigis only HORRENDOUS matchups
game of thrones is incredible look forward to season 2 (and 3 i guess..)
oh ganon is a good counter to luigi too
its like zelda and falcon put together *salivates*
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
no wonder i have a pocket zelda and luigi.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
*Unzips pants*
choknater
Smash Obsessed
when i play luigi i just go hard in the paint with down b's
HyugaRicdeau
Baller/Shot-caller
I've played a lot of Luigi recently and in my opinion Falco is his worst matchup. Luigi's metagame has evolved more and more towards relying on his ground mobility to do anything, and Falco shuts that down more than any other character. Not to mention that shine puts Luigi in the very unenviable position of having to get back onto the ground from high up in the air, and he only has a couple tricks to escape that (down b or pray Falco can't outspace your nair). Yeah Luigi has some combos/edgeguards on him but who doesn't, and Falco can edgeguard Luigi pretty effectively too. I think Luigi can still evolve in this matchup but it's going to require precise WDs from shield, and realizing when it is more advantageous to take a laser than to be put in your shield.
Marth takes more advantage of Luigi being a sitting duck in the air than perhaps almost any other character, and I think Marths should up throw Luigi more often to put him in this position instead of trying to get a combo off f/d/bthrow (like Marths sometimes do to Falcon). Also pretty much destroys his recovery with little effort. Luigi can hold his own on the ground though, and with good wave/dash-dancing you can get Marths to second-guess themselves or throw out punishable moves. An fsmash on Luigi's shield is pretty much always punishable unless it's a tip. This is basically what keeps it from being as bad a matchup as Falco, and despite it being a bad matchup I think it's actually somewhat enjoyable since the 'neutral' game is a fast-paced weird kind of footsie game. Luigi's bair is a decent edgeguard move here too.
I think Fox and Sheik are both easier than Marth but not by much, and Falcon is close behind them. I want to say Peach is next but I don't have enough experience in that MU. I used to think ICs was pretty close to even for Luigi but in the last year or two ICs have gotten pretty amazing with blizzard desync tricks and can do a pretty good job of walling Luigi out. Puff wall of pain is the only consistent solid tactic against Luigi, outside of that the matchup is pretty close.
Marth takes more advantage of Luigi being a sitting duck in the air than perhaps almost any other character, and I think Marths should up throw Luigi more often to put him in this position instead of trying to get a combo off f/d/bthrow (like Marths sometimes do to Falcon). Also pretty much destroys his recovery with little effort. Luigi can hold his own on the ground though, and with good wave/dash-dancing you can get Marths to second-guess themselves or throw out punishable moves. An fsmash on Luigi's shield is pretty much always punishable unless it's a tip. This is basically what keeps it from being as bad a matchup as Falco, and despite it being a bad matchup I think it's actually somewhat enjoyable since the 'neutral' game is a fast-paced weird kind of footsie game. Luigi's bair is a decent edgeguard move here too.
I think Fox and Sheik are both easier than Marth but not by much, and Falcon is close behind them. I want to say Peach is next but I don't have enough experience in that MU. I used to think ICs was pretty close to even for Luigi but in the last year or two ICs have gotten pretty amazing with blizzard desync tricks and can do a pretty good job of walling Luigi out. Puff wall of pain is the only consistent solid tactic against Luigi, outside of that the matchup is pretty close.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
A lot of ICs players used to have trouble with Luigi, so we worked pretty hard on it.
also, conveniently, Luigi has trouble against ICs 2012 bread and butter (ice shot, blizzard, ftilt), so...
also, conveniently, Luigi has trouble against ICs 2012 bread and butter (ice shot, blizzard, ftilt), so...
Max?
Smash Champion
The only Top Tier matchups I dislike as Luigi are Sheik and Falcon. Falco on paper ***** Luigi, but once again, almost all Falcos are ***.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
not here in cali 
Max?
Smash Champion
Nah, they are probably *** too
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha, you wish man. they are all crazy good. they know their stuff
Bones0
Smash Legend
Wow, thanks! I've been looking for a new heater manual for my AVR-245.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
HAHAHA! I swear to god this would have been my 1st post if I hadn't been playing this long.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Zelda is underrated, her toe is pretty good and should henceforth be known as 'THE KICK'
*covers head and waits for the bang*
*covers head and waits for the bang*
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
I like to think yoshi is underrated...
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Yoshi is definitely underrated.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
john!
Smash Hero
everyone thinks yoshi is underrated, which makes him (IMO) overrated.
soon everyone will come to agree with me, and then yoshi will be underrated again.
soon everyone will come to agree with me, and then yoshi will be underrated again.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
The problem with Yoshi is he is so hard to use. . . you have to actually be good, and then he can have potential. I think most people mess around with him, do poorly then say he is bad. He has lots of low priority moves, and he has limitations like his recovery and he cant jump OoS etc, but once you start to learn him you see his potential. I think his biggest barrier is that you need to be precise with him, and many players accustomed to high tiers don't have the precision required to play him. Who knows, maybe Yoshi is just a mass of potential but will never have a player able to make him work. I like him though.
Note: I'm not saying everyone who plays high tiers aren't precise, but when people first play a character they aren't precise.
Note: I'm not saying everyone who plays high tiers aren't precise, but when people first play a character they aren't precise.