Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Kink-Link5]

Bowser is overrated. Only character with bad matchups against 26 characters in the game and he's somehow considered not as bad as Fake Fake Fox and ledge grab mcgoo.

 

[Vudujin]

If you could consistently parry with Yoshi then he would rise on the tier list.

Underrated =/= Underused.

Half of the roster is terrible for a myriad of reasons.

 

[Purpletuce]

Oh yeah!

I played a few non-Yoshi characters over the weekend, and I was pretty intoxicated . . . and for some reason I decided to try to PS lasers. I thought it is harder than with Yoshi because you have a smaller window, but I was forgetting that the projectile reflection window is the same. . . so I was surprised to find that PSing lasers is easy.

When I say PSing lasers is easy I mean that when it is obvious you can PS lasers, like if Falco is trying to camp you. It is obviously going to be harder to implement if a Falco starts shooting lasers mid-combo, or if they start varying their approach and timing. The only realistic thing I see from this is forcing the Falco to approach differently, and taking away his super safe easy approach.

Also, we were both intoxicated, so my opponent decided that after I PSed a laser, he should reflect it back, and which point I managed to PS it a second time once. It was fun.

Maybe people should practice with Yoshi first, but PSing is reasonable.

Edit: I have also said before that parrying is limited, and wish people could do it consistently. Finally, I'm pretty sure a myriad means on the magnitude of 10,000. . . maybe a little exaggerated. Maybe half of the characters are terrible for several reasons?

 

[Vudujin]

Hyperbole is back.

Take that "literally", "actually", and "seriously".

 

[Nogzor'z]

Heh, myriad...

I feel as though consistently parrying is not the "main" issue. He probably is pretty underused though.

 

[Jiv]

What's peoples opinion of pikachu now that axe is f***in everyone up

I mean, it's impossible for marth to win

 

[KrIsP!]

Axe has been stylin' on people for awhile now and the tier list reflects what he's shown people. I'm not sure he should move up much from where he is now.

 

[Divinokage]

1 sample isn't good enough to move a character up the tier list. If he's the only one capable to do it and all the other Pikachus can't even get to the brackets then it says something about the character.. rather than Fox where you see tons of them in brackets.

 

[Mew2King]

it also shows the highest known level of that character. I don't think marth is worse than peach/falcon, but if you remove me from the equation then peach/falcons have been doing better for years. I still think marth is clearly better than falcon and slightly better than peach (peach is better vs ICs/falco/sheik, marth vs fox/marth/puff, so it's debatable who is better). I don't think fox counters sheik like they say since my sheik has 2 and 3 stocked most/all of the best fox's at some point this year, i think the character can for sure do it, which leads me to believe that she is underrated in the MU by other people.

 

[Archangel]

1 sample isn't good enough to move a character up the tier list. If he's the only one capable to do it and all the other Pikachus can't even get to the brackets then it says something about the character.. rather than Fox where you see tons of them in brackets.

See, this has always and always will be a touchy thing for me.


If you have 100 Fox players at a tournament and 1 of them makes top 5-10. Vs 1 Pika player and 1 Pika player makes top 5-10. Is there really a statement being made 1 way or the other?

 

[Mew2King]

it shows fox is more popular, as he should be - he's fun to use, and there's always cool stuff to improve on. You can improve just by improving your tech skill with a space animal, where as it's harder to improve alone with other characters, as you are limited by things such as experience in situations or intelligence (without tech skill being as great of a factor), also other characters' slowness can get boring. Fox might be the most fun character to play when your tech skill is perfect, (alongside falcon), and the most fun to fight since you can 0-death him in a lot of ways too.

 

[john!]

What's peoples opinion of pikachu now that axe is f***in everyone up

I mean, it's impossible for marth to win

pikachu has a higher skill cap than yoshi IMO. he's mad good though, but only 1 guy has been able to bring out his potential so far.

You can improve just by improving your tech skill with a space animal, where as it's harder to improve alone with other characters, as you are limited by things such as experience in situations or intelligence (without tech skill being as great of a factor)

i've been saying this for years and lots of people are uncomfortable with the idea...

 

[Strong Badam]

1 sample isn't good enough to move a character up the tier list. If he's the only one capable to do it and all the other Pikachus can't even get to the brackets then it says something about the character.. rather than Fox where you see tons of them in brackets.

yeah i'm gonna have to say that's more because of fox's popularity compared to pikachu. on average if you have a ton of people playing a character you have a higher chance of a top/high level player using them than if only a few are, so the potential of the character isn't seen as often.

EDIT: not to say that pikachu isn't a worse character than fox or anything. it's sad i have to put this here but i gotta kage proof my posts

 

[Hax]

we're playing a game where most characters have 0, 1, or 2 top level representative(s). the skill of individual players means more than the characters they're using at that point

theory has to play a far bigger role than usual when creating tier lists for Melee

 

[Kink-Link5]

we're playing a game where most characters have 0, 1, or 2 top level representative(s). the skill of individual players means more than the characters they're using at that point

theory has to play a far bigger role than usual when creating tier lists for Melee

And yet somehow Falcon ended up in the top 7 spot.

 

[Mew2King]

i think ICs are 7 and falcon 8

falco > fox/puff > sheik at 4th, but clearly better than 5/6, peach/marth at 5/6 (peach better vs falco/ICs/sheik, marth better at fox/marth/peach/), ICs 7 and falcon 8 (although falcon counters ICs in head to head). Doc 9th. Pikachu/Mario/Luigi/Ganon/Samus afterwords in some order.

 

[S l o X]

fox has an easier time with puff/sheik/ic/peach than falco does (arguable) while falco has an easier time with marth/falcon/most mid-high tiers.

how is falco > fox?

 

[Strong Badam]

falco has no disadvantaged matchups
fox loses to falco
~~~

 

[RFrizzle]

^
gucci

 

[Mew2King]

Falco's even with himself and peach, beats everyone else, is easier to be consistent with, and has better tourney results since like 2005 to now, from various representive players in each time period era (which I've both been following, and been a constant part of consistently).

Fox jumps 2 frames faster and kills peach/puff faster. He is a lot better in teams, but I thought the tier list only counted singles.

my fox has, between friendlies and tourney, 2-3 stocked javi/unknown/jman/mango's fox's THIS YEAR, in sheik vs fox

and i struggle with VARIOUS falcos, yet im still the best sheik vs falco

don't tell me fox does better vs sheik, cuz that is some total bull****. Fox sheik is like even, where as falco is sheik's worst MU.

 

[Little England]

we're playing a game where most characters have 0, 1, or 2 top level representative(s). the skill of individual players means more than the characters they're using at that point

theory has to play a far bigger role than usual when creating tier lists for Melee

agreed.

 

[ShroudedOne]

don't tell me fox does better vs sheik, cuz that is some total bull****. Fox sheik is like even, where as falco is sheik's worst MU.

You wouldn't say Puff or ICs?

 

[Deleted member]

agree with jason @ everything.

theory has a very debatable role in smash to begin with. using theory to dictate information to a larger group of people is sketchy at best and can go downhill very easily.

 

[tarheeljks]

See, this has always and always will be a touchy thing for me.


If you have 100 Fox players at a tournament and 1 of them makes top 5-10. Vs 1 Pika player and 1 Pika player makes top 5-10. Is there really a statement being made 1 way or the other?

if you believe that people tend to favor playing stronger characters then the relative volume means a quite a bit

 

[Purpletuce]

The main utility I get from theory is to understand the game better. At the end of the day, I don't care if people believe that Yoshi can be better, or Falco is the best character in the game(realistically) but that doesn't mean I won't say those things, because if I say those things, I might learn from them.

Also, 'skill caps' are really hard to say, and I don't think Pika or Yoshi have been explored nearly enough to assume Pika has a higher skill cap.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

my fox has, between friendlies and tourney, 2-3 stocked javi/unknown/jman/mango's fox's THIS YEAR, in sheik vs fox

Did this line confuse the **** out of anyone else?

 

[Anand]

Did this line confuse the **** out of anyone else?

From context and the rest of the post, I'm pretty sure he meant his Sheik. But yeah, I initially was confused too.

 

[Archangel]

if you believe that people tend to favor playing stronger characters then the relative volume means a quite a bit

I agree with M2K that it's a popularity contest to an extent. Combined with being known as the best character in the game both in theory and according to the past few tier lists and I'd say that helps explain why fox is so popular. On top of that he does really cool flashy stuff. There is literally a flash when he shines...

Pikachu on the other hand is about as good as a fox without a shine, has better recovery, has 1/10th the swag = sucky character.

One thing I actually am not sure about that M2K said that I wanted to expand on. If you play a character that is technical they say it helps you overall get better at the game. However I've found playing low tier or characters that are a bit more simplistic and then going from that to a character that can seemingly do whatever they want is a better feelings. that could simply depend on the personality of a person more than anything else though.


Also....Did Jason put Peach a spot above Marth :o... BLASPHEMY!!!!

 

[Mew2King]

I'm not convinced peach is better than marth, but she might be since she's good at some important MUs (falco/ICs/less-bad-vs-sheik)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Kk are you saying pika has less swag then fox? If so, blasphemy

 

[Archangel]

I'm not convinced peach is better than marth, but she might be since she's good at some important MUs (falco/ICs/less-bad-vs-sheik)

I think Peach is better than Marth overall but not by much. She's about a stichface's length over him. Marth vs Fox is better for Marth by a hair. Everyone else then goes to Peach as you stated except Puff. Puff is a little ****.

Where I really feel Peach/Sheik pull away from Marth is really how they do vs The C-D characters. Not that Marth sucks vs them but Alot of very good C-D tier Mains upset good Marth players in pools or early in tournament just because of Marth's limitations with Recovery or lack of frame safety sometimes. Where as Sheik and Peach kind of dominate Most of their C-D tier Match-ups even against really good opposition.


I feel a great deal of what makes Marth great is what I call the 2-1 mindgame. against 2 characters on 1 stage he's a god. He's got very graphic evidence to show that he annihilation the 2 best characters in the game on 1 stage.(A stage that can be struck/Banned at any moment now btw). So after years of seeing so many beat down spacies on FD and Spacies being the more common characters you saw in a tournament It makes sense that Marth be consider near the very top for that reason. I'm just personally not sure that's a good way of measuring a character's tier placement...

1.Falco
2.Fox
3.Puff
4.Sheik
5.Peach
6/7/8 Marth, Falcon, IC's could be any order.
9-everyone else. Who care you probably aren't going to win anyway.

 

[Mew2King]

Marth is better than Falcon overall man. That's no contest, at all. I don't even think it's that close. Falcon's only super good when he can Uair-destroy his opponent. MUs he can't do that he is much worse. He struggles vs the top 3 in the game for this very reason, and is good vs the rest but when you struggle vs the top 3 characters in the game that is a major flaw imo.

Also puff is underrated. hax ***** me in 2 falcon dittos this weekend and then i won the rest of the set with puff (4 stocked by planking immediately after getting the % lead) and sheik (3/1 stock normal matches). Makes me feel falcon is even more overrated and puff/sheik are underrated by a little bit each (esp puff).

 

[S l o X]

don't tell me fox does better vs sheik, cuz that is some total bull****. Fox sheik is like even, where as falco is sheik's worst MU.

what is life

 

[Archangel]

Marth is better than Falcon overall man. That's no contest, at all. I don't even think it's that close. Falcon's only super good when he can Uair-destroy his opponent. MUs he can't do that he is much worse. He struggles vs the top 3 in the game for this very reason, and is good vs the rest but when you struggle vs the top 3 characters in the game that is a major flaw imo.

Also puff is underrated. hax ***** me in 2 falcon dittos this weekend and then i won the rest of the set with puff (4 stocked by planking immediately after getting the % lead) and sheik (3/1 stock normal matches). Makes me feel falcon is even more overrated and puff/sheik are underrated by a little bit each (esp puff).

I don't disagree but some have a valid argument for Falcon...I mean...I personally don't see how Falcon could be that go yet...He's been doing overall better than Marth for like....4 years? (minus your own placings of course).

As for Puff being underrated...I think most rate her top 3 or 4 at least...Some still think she's overall number 1. Idk how that can be underrated.


Also, On the subject of Sheik vs Falco/Fox. I have always felt that Sheik can go even-ish with Fox as long as you space amazingly. Falco on the other hand....he tends to make sheik his ***** unless she gets lucky with something that leads to a quick gimp.

 

[Hax]

Jiggs planking when done right is a legitimately gamebreaking tactic that needs to be banned

Falcon is not better than Marth lol. Marth is significantly better vs both spacies, better vs Puff, they have about the same matchup vs Sheik (Falcon might be slightly better at it), Falcon is slightly better vs Peach, and Marth vs Falcon is even.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Did this line confuse the **** out of anyone else?

Everything Jason says confuses the **** out of me.

IC's are definitely better than Falcon though.

 

[ZetTroxX]

Jiggs planking when done right is a legitimately gamebreaking tactic that needs to be banned

Falcon is not better than Marth lol. Marth is significantly better vs both spacies, better vs Puff, they have about the same matchup vs Sheik (Falcon might be slightly better at it), Falcon is slightly better vs Peach, and Marth vs Falcon is even.

^this

10chars

 

[Armada]

Jiggs planking when done right is a legitimately gamebreaking tactic that needs to be banned

Falcon is not better than Marth lol. Marth is significantly better vs both spacies, better vs Puff, they have about the same matchup vs Sheik (Falcon might be slightly better at it), Falcon is slightly better vs Peach, and Marth vs Falcon is even.

Those smashboards legends know Marth is such a terrible char. Don't even dare to try make Marth sound like a better char then he is.

Marth is not better then mid and is not to far away from becoming a low-tier. Afterall Pikachu is also having better results then Marth this days =)

 

[Hax]

I post on these boards very sparingly nowadays for a reason.

 

[Divinokage]

I know the misinformation is ridiculous/trolling too but who else can provide correct information outside of the top players?

Edit: Nm, even some top players are ridiculous lol.