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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Fortress | Sveet

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No, it definitely cannot. DSRm makes it matter WHAT stages/matches you win. If someone breaks their opponent's cp (like breaking serve in tennis), then not only do they get a win on that stage, but they get to cp their best stage AGAIN. I give a better explanation in my thread.
Yes and no. It doesn't favor one player over another, each has the option to repick the first stage they won on during the set.

I like the alternating character selection, but the overhead is impractical. Consider a tournament of 150 people, every single one of them would have to be registered with a character and that list would have to be referenced before every single set (hundreds and hundreds of times). I would rather see a variation along the lines of each player declaring a starting character (preferably double blind) and then rotating by your rules (which needs a rotation limit instead of an infinite loop check).

Also, I don't see a DSR alternative at all. "Bones Stupid Rule" and the rules associated with it is an alternate to stage banning and not to DSR. And to be honest, BSR is pretty worthless. Fox vs Marth, fox bans FD so marth picks Yoshis. yadayadayada, next time around, Fox can't ban FD so marth picks it. It really doesn't give a player a ban, it lets them choose the order the opponent will CP them in.

Btw you should really change your Gentlemen's rule from what you have into the MBR gentlemen's clause. The wording you have actually allows for legal bracket manipulation and other exploits, since it allows the players to agree to any rule and not any stage. For example, the players could simply agree that no matter what happens in the games, player X will be deemed the winner. Because it is part of the rules of the tournament, the TO would have no power to take action against the players.

I also have gripes with coaching rules and that you want players to choose character before stage selection. I like the creativity and thought you put into the ruleset, but I would not enjoy hosting or playing in a tournament with these rules.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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I didn't say that the ruleset should be changed further, nor do I really see a reason for it to.

I don't understand how any of your points are relevant to what I said, Bones0, but it is still silly to think that rules shouldn't or don't impact game balance when that's what has been done for years.

:phone:
You implied rules should impact game balance. Yeah, I believe that changing the ruleset affects the game's balance, but I don't change the ruleset with those affects in mind outside of tactics that greatly marginalize skill (Fox circle camping on Hyrule). That's completely different from deciding whether or not we should have a ban based on how good spacies are on FD or something so specific.

Yes and no. It doesn't favor one player over another, each has the option to repick the first stage they won on during the set.
You can only repick the first stage you won on if you happened to win on your opponent's cp immediately following that match. Obviously it is "fair" because the rules are the same for both players, but it makes it much more important for players to win on their cp even if they just won on their opponent's cp. There's no basis for deciding the next stage choice based on the last stage that was won on. It was implemented as a way of preventing players from going to the same stage twice, but with bo5 sets and no bans it's just completely unnecessary.

I like the alternating character selection, but the overhead is impractical. Consider a tournament of 150 people, every single one of them would have to be registered with a character and that list would have to be referenced before every single set (hundreds and hundreds of times). I would rather see a variation along the lines of each player declaring a starting character (preferably double blind) and then rotating by your rules (which needs a rotation limit instead of an infinite loop check).
You don't have to reference the default character unless players get stuck in a cp loop (which will almost exclusively be with two chars for each player, making it pretty obvious). Most players only ever play one character in tourney no matter what, so none of those players will ever have to worry about the rule. Their opponent will change their character and they'll start the match. For everyone else, how often do they call double blind? Rarely. I've never heard of an instance of it, honestly. As far as logistics, idk how it would work. Maybe big tournaments can just use double blind instead, but you could just as easily use one of the metadata labels such as "Real Name" to signify character.

Also, I don't see a DSR alternative at all. "Bones Stupid Rule" and the rules associated with it is an alternate to stage banning and not to DSR. And to be honest, BSR is pretty worthless. Fox vs Marth, fox bans FD so marth picks Yoshis. yadayadayada, next time around, Fox can't ban FD so marth picks it. It really doesn't give a player a ban, it lets them choose the order the opponent will CP them in.
The POINT is that it limits the opponent's hard cps. No matter what order matches are won or lost in, Marth will never be able to force Fox into playing FD twice in a bo5. As I've said, this happens virtually any time someone loses the first game, wins on their strongest cp, and then wins on their opponent's first cp.

Btw you should really change your Gentlemen's rule from what you have into the MBR gentlemen's clause. The wording you have actually allows for legal bracket manipulation and other exploits, since it allows the players to agree to any rule and not any stage. For example, the players could simply agree that no matter what happens in the games, player X will be deemed the winner. Because it is part of the rules of the tournament, the TO would have no power to take action against the players.

I also have gripes with coaching rules and that you want players to choose character before stage selection. I like the creativity and thought you put into the ruleset, but I would not enjoy hosting or playing in a tournament with these rules.
I don't see how forfeiting is an issue from GC. Players can throw matches or simply not show up for their match much more easily than they can GA to have one player win no matter what... Bracket manipulation is impossible to stop. You can have rules against it (and I wouldn't vehemently protest someone using one at their tournament), but in the end it's more of a soft ban than anything. You are just trying to attach a negative stigma to splitting/forfeiting because it's just as easy and impossible to stop in my ruleset as it is in the MBR's.
 

KirbyKaze

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Someone hated the old ruleset.
It is aggravating to lose to a good Fox player like Raynex or Jman in the first game in a 1-stock high% match and then been CPed to any combination of Green Greens, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and Pokefloats on all their CP choices. And I'm stuck picking neutrals on my CPs like a chump because Sheik doesn't have OP CPs -_-
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I'm not sure if the MBR has made an official statement about bracket manipulation and such, but we have recently had a lot of discussion about it. The option most people agreed with is to inform TOs of their rights, most prominently the ability for them to withhold winnings for people who have split or otherwise manipulated the bracket. This will not stop splitting altogether, but it will at least make it so private that the audience should not notice. In the end, even if players agreed to split, they will play their hardest so their ruse is not discovered else the winnings for both be withheld.

You can only repick the first stage you won on if you happened to win on your opponent's cp immediately following that match.
No. Assuming you get to CP for set point, you will always have the option to choose the stage you first won on (unless your opponent takes you to your first won stage and loses there, giving you 2 wins on the same stage anyways).

I think the underlying problem is that only one player will be able to CP for set point, and that player will always have the choice to go back to the first stage they won on. This is an inherent issue in best of x sets, and could only be solved by making sets be won by 2 games or more.

You don't have to reference the default character unless players get stuck in a cp loop (which will almost exclusively be with two chars for each player, making it pretty obvious). Most players only ever play one character in tourney no matter what, so none of those players will ever have to worry about the rule. Their opponent will change their character and they'll start the match. For everyone else, how often do they call double blind? Rarely. I've never heard of an instance of it, honestly. As far as logistics, idk how it would work. Maybe big tournaments can just use double blind instead, but you could just as easily use one of the metadata labels such as "Real Name" to signify character.
When you make a ruleset you have to think about its actual usage. Rules that require interaction from a party other than the 2 players (usually a TO) are inherently disruptive to the tournament. Rules that have overhead associated with them add additional work for the TO staff, which is inherently disruptive. TOs have more important things to do than baby sit the players. When these rules are scaled to larger tournaments, it takes exponentially more work. For that reason alone, the rules will have a hard time gaining popularity.

Determining an infinite loop is difficult, sometimes even for computers. Operating systems usually use a timeout or counter to guess whether or not there is an infinite loop (hence why windows prompts you whether you want to end a program or wait for the loop to finish... it doesn't really know, it just knows its "been a while"). I would suggest changing your rule to something along those lines. If the players can't agree within 5 choices, they will play their default characters. For practicality, it might be better to simply allow the players to choose their first character each set, with or without a blind pick.

And as a TO i have been called over for double blind picks on occasion. It does happen and it is important.

The POINT is that it limits the opponent's hard cps. No matter what order matches are won or lost in, Marth will never be able to force Fox into playing FD twice in a bo5. As I've said, this happens virtually any time someone loses the first game, wins on their strongest cp, and then wins on their opponent's first cp.
Fox vs Marth

Strike to YS, marth wins
...
Fox bans YS, marth picks FD
...
Fox bans FD, marth picks YS.

So your rule doesn't completely solve the problem. Also, it eliminates true stage bans while creating even more overhead for the players to keep track of. Anyways, as you said, the point is to limit hard CPs, but regular stage bans is the process of removing hard CPs altogether. You can ban FD and not go there even once. Without those outlying stages, the players will be forced to choose from the more "even" stages and thus have a better set.
 

Bones0

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No. Assuming you get to CP for set point, you will always have the option to choose the stage you first won on (unless your opponent takes you to your first won stage and loses there, giving you 2 wins on the same stage anyways).

I think the underlying problem is that only one player will be able to CP for set point, and that player will always have the choice to go back to the first stage they won on. This is an inherent issue in best of x sets, and could only be solved by making sets be won by 2 games or more.
The only way you can cp the first stage you won on is if you won game 1 or if you won on their cp. Example of sets when Falco can cp the first stage he won on vs. Marth (wins on Marth's cps are italicized):

Falco wins on BF. Loses on FD. Wins on DL. Loses on non-FD. Can go to BF again for game 5, but that's not an advantage since it's the most even stage (according to the players).
OR
Falco loses on BF. Wins on DL. Wins on FD. Loses on FD. Can go to DL again for game 5
OR
Falco loses on BF. Loses on DL. Wins on DL. Wins on FD. Can go to DL again for game 5.

If I'm missing a way for Falco to play DL twice without winning on Marth's cp, lmk. Either way, as you can see by the stage choices, DSRm can frequently result in 3-stage sets as opposed to BSR which will typically result in 5 stages being used. With DSRm, players will cp the best stage they can, which is completely dependent on the order in which matches are won (arbitrary, and should have no bearing on what stages get played). With BSR, players will cp their best stage after their first lost, and their second-best stage after their second lost, or vice versa. Obviously it doesn't always happen that way because sometimes they may want to go back to the stage they struck to instead, but the stage they struck to is perceived as even, not as an advantageous cp. See the last quote.

When you make a ruleset you have to think about its actual usage. Rules that require interaction from a party other than the 2 players (usually a TO) are inherently disruptive to the tournament. Rules that have overhead associated with them add additional work for the TO staff, which is inherently disruptive. TOs have more important things to do than baby sit the players. When these rules are scaled to larger tournaments, it takes exponentially more work. For that reason alone, the rules will have a hard time gaining popularity.

Determining an infinite loop is difficult, sometimes even for computers. Operating systems usually use a timeout or counter to guess whether or not there is an infinite loop (hence why windows prompts you whether you want to end a program or wait for the loop to finish... it doesn't really know, it just knows its "been a while"). I would suggest changing your rule to something along those lines. If the players can't agree within 5 choices, they will play their default characters. For practicality, it might be better to simply allow the players to choose their first character each set, with or without a blind pick.

And as a TO i have been called over for double blind picks on occasion. It does happen and it is important.
You say rules that require a TO are a hassle, which I agree with, but you go on to state that you have been called to settle double blinds as a TO. So how is my method any more of a burden? You're just assuming that my character selection method will result in a bunch of infinite loops even though this is already the way most character selections go. Ex. Mew2King sits down to play someone and selects Marth. The opponent goes Falcon, so he switches to Sheik. I've never seen someone request a double blind BEFORE they know what their opponent's character choice is. People call a double blind when there is an infinite loop, but they can also do it to bluff people out of cping them. All my method does is protect people who use multiple characters from literally having to guess on the double blind.

Determining an infinite loop isn't hard. It happens when the players come full circle in their character decisions. Ex: (Player 1 vs. Player 2)
Fox vs. Marth
Sheik vs. Marth
Sheik vs. Puff
Fox vs. Puff
Fox vs. Marth <-- Obviously they will just continue cping each other unless one of them changes their mind about what matchup they are willing to play. If P2 for some random reason decides going through the second iteration that will be actually okay with Fox vs. Marth or Sheik vs. Marth or w/e even though he wasn't originally, then he can just continue the loop and stop it on that matchup. The best part is that the players can just go off of each other's word for what their default is, and you can just check when you report the score to the TO. "I lost 2-1. Was ___'s default character Fox? Oh, okay, just checking." And if they find out the person lied about their default character, obviously they will just be DQed.



Fox vs Marth

Strike to YS, marth wins
...
Fox bans YS, marth picks FD
...
Fox bans FD, marth picks YS.

So your rule doesn't completely solve the problem. Also, it eliminates true stage bans while creating even more overhead for the players to keep track of. Anyways, as you said, the point is to limit hard CPs, but regular stage bans is the process of removing hard CPs altogether. You can ban FD and not go there even once. Without those outlying stages, the players will be forced to choose from the more "even" stages and thus have a better set.
The problem with this is that if you strike to YS, you can't possibly complain about playing it again... It is very frequently the case that you will have to play on the stage you struck to for rubber match of a set. If a player somehow strikes to 1 of their opponent's 2 best cps, there's not much the system can do to help them at that point. The Fox obviously considers YS an even stage for the matchup, so the fact that Marth is better at the stage seems irrelevant. There's no abuse of cps occurring. It's just Marth and Fox having differing views of what stages are good for the matchup, and Marth's understanding of the stages/performance on the stages perceived to be the most even is just greater than the Fox player's.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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You can't disregard the fact that regardless of player, who ever gets to CP for set point will have the option of returning to their first won stage, simply because you don't think its a big enough advantage. All of the remaining stages have similar match-ups relative to each other, do you really think a stage your opponent beat you on should be ruled out as a stage that they have an advantage on?

And are you saying the person who loses game 1 and breaks on an opponent's CP is at an unfair advantage by the rules? If that is so, why does nobody throw the first game in order to come back later in the set?
 

Gea

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That's the invisible ceiling.. it's just a bug of a bug. Hitting the acid just happens that you'll get spiked.
I thought it specifically referred to getting hit upwards then down (primarily on dreamland)? Either way, yeah. That glitch.

It is aggravating to lose to a good Fox player like Raynex or Jman in the first game in a 1-stock high% match and then been CPed to any combination of Green Greens, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and Pokefloats on all their CP choices. And I'm stuck picking neutrals on my CPs like a chump because Sheik doesn't have OP CPs -_-
I mean yeah, Sheik's aerial mobility, recovery and moveset means she favors the more normal stages of the game, but don't you think the current stage list is a bit overly conservative? I mean, I understand why the move towards what it is now (not that I particularly agree with it) and the impacts and everything, but geeze.
 

Twinkles

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It is aggravating to lose to a good Fox player like Raynex or Jman in the first game in a 1-stock high% match and then been CPed to any combination of Green Greens, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and Pokefloats on all their CP choices. And I'm stuck picking neutrals on my CPs like a chump because Sheik doesn't have OP CPs -_-
How's Sheik vs. spacies on Brinstar? (100% serious post)
 

Gea

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She does alright there but doesn't really benefit greatly from the uneven terrain, extra hitboxes or platform arrangements as much as a few other characters imo. Honestly I feel like that's fox's worst stage overall but I know plenty of people disagree. The obvious negatives vs spacies is they have better tools to deny the top platform because of their pressure games or quickly punish someone tapping the acid/ having to recover oddly because no wall/ laggy onstage recoveries (vs their increased mixups due to the stage). I still think they aren't that great there overall as far as stages for them go. Like what space animals ever wanted to go there of their own accord?

Though yeah, she has one of the best horizontal aerials in the game, slap and knee are godly there. And she has a projectile. Acid -> needle -> acid does great damage and the opportunity is there way more than one may think.


Edit: Fair enough, KK.
 

KirbyKaze

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I mean yeah, Sheik's aerial mobility, recovery and moveset means she favors the more normal stages of the game, but don't you think the current stage list is a bit overly conservative? I mean, I understand why the move towards what it is now (not that I particularly agree with it) and the impacts and everything, but geeze.
I think cases could be made for some of the old stages to return. I don't think a handful of them (a very small handful at that) are as abusive or over-centralizing as they are made out to be. That said, if they did, I would also want a stage ban to come back.

Sheik is okay on Brinstar. Her ability to stall through the acid is really handy because she doesn't have to get sucked into competition for the top platforms and she has good air combo finishers. The uneven terrain is also good for escaping certain kinds of Fox shine combos.
 

KirbyKaze

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Puff, Peach, Falcon, Ganon, and Sheik are the 'good' characters on Brinstar AFAIK.

I think Falco is also good on Brinstar because dair > lava > dair > lava can combo forever and then you KO with bair. D-throw > instant lava hit is also pretty funny.
 

DrinkingFood

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Hold on guys, now hang on just a damn second.
I just had an epiphany, a revelation of sorts.
It's spoilered below so only highlight the following if you prepared to notions of mathematics shifted;
Each matchup ratio in the game
adds up to a 100
Pretty neat huh? came up with that ma'self
 

HyugaRicdeau

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Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
Bring back Mushroom Kingdom II.

Puff isn't that great on Brinstar, imo. Spacies that know how to camp the top platform make it pretty hard to get meaningful approaches, as it's an awkward height for Puff to get to. They also get sometimes saved by the acid. Not as much as they lost a stock as the result of it, but it does mitigate that somewhat. And Sheik needle junk on the side platforms is extremely annoying.

Puff has a fun "pillow rest" (dthrow -> instant rest) on the breakable pods or whatever they are if you hit them a few times first.
 

Divinokage

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I found that Jiggs is the hardest to beat on Brinstar.. I remember when playing Mango I got rested 10 times on Brinstar in teams and that happened in 2-3 games I played on it which means x20 rests +
 

Divinokage

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You can fail rests and just get punished by the lava and then SDI the lava to get out of a bad position. (Jiggs get knocked back super far because of her weight.) You can also maneuver around a certain way where its extremely hard to hit jiggs too, like going under the stage or hiding behind the crap, whatever it's called. lol. Doing that makes basically every character facing her always in a risky position where you can get killed in 2 seconds.
 

Gea

Smash Master
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People talk about the high ceiling all the time, characters with horizontal killing potential tend to not suffer the same issues with killing.
 

Purpletuce

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I played a serious match on RC for the first time Friday, those silly stages can be so fun. . . and a useful CP for some characters. For example, in stages like that, CGs get broken up more easily, and characters with poor maneuverability can lose on positioning battles. RC was probably sweet for characters like Yoshi. . . not so much against spacies as Sheik Jiggs Peach etc.

Some of those old stages had some use.

Although I'm certain they can also be abused . . . They are great for fun matches.
 

odinNJ

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fox can waveshine people off the screen on RC in multiple locations.

I wish certain stages were legal for specific matchups.

For example, make onett legal as long as one of the players isnt chosing fox. I believe that this would make a more diverse stage list, thus a more diverse game, and continue to keep the super broken things from happening.


Yes I know onett can still be a horribly broken stage :D (car combos are top tier)
 

HyugaRicdeau

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Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
I found that Jiggs is the hardest to beat on Brinstar.. I remember when playing Mango I got rested 10 times on Brinstar in teams and that happened in 2-3 games I played on it which means x20 rests +
It's good for Puff against Ganondorf but that's because Ganon sucks. Ganon needs room to move around against Puff and the bottom platform is too small for that.

I seriously think MK2 is a pretty legit stage aside from the waveshining off the edge.
 

Gea

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I seriously think MK2 is a pretty legit stage aside from the waveshining off the edge.
Why is everyone so hung up on waveshining? Walkoffs were taken away supposedly because lots of moves/grabs near the blastzone = instant death, making the areas easy to camp and marginalizing overall player skill and maximizing testing their skill at playing near a blastzone. Most blastzones also have areas where you can only see your character in a bubble if that, meaning the exchanges are largely blind.

The only time I ever saw MKII legal was for teams, and teams kind of disrupts that strategy from being effective.
 
D

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i agree that mk2 is an excellent stage. i mean i've been saying this for years so no surprise.
 

Divinokage

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It's good for Puff against Ganondorf but that's because Ganon sucks. Ganon needs room to move around against Puff and the bottom platform is too small for that.

I seriously think MK2 is a pretty legit stage aside from the waveshining off the edge.
In singles it isn't that bad at all, in doubles it's terrible. But I didn't just assume my own experience with this but from what I've seen with jiggs.
 

Bones0

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Why is everyone so hung up on waveshining? Walkoffs were taken away supposedly because lots of moves/grabs near the blastzone = instant death, making the areas easy to camp and marginalizing overall player skill and maximizing testing their skill at playing near a blastzone. Most blastzones also have areas where you can only see your character in a bubble if that, meaning the exchanges are largely blind.

The only time I ever saw MKII legal was for teams, and teams kind of disrupts that strategy from being effective.
Are you copying some old post of mine?! lol
 

odinNJ

Smash Lord
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Waveshining off the walk-off isn't a big concern anyway, how will Fox reliably get you inbetween himself and the walk-off?

:phone:
Not only this,

There are several locations in which if
You fall through the stage fox can shine you into a very bad position ( under an immovable, etc)
 

Bones0

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I want to see a Fox jump up into the bottom of Jungle Japes from the right side, shine spike an opponent through the stage, and then up-B and get carried by the water so he comes out the other side. :D
 

Gea

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That is actually pretty easy to do, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it before in a video. Good luck finding it, though.

And no, Bones. Why would I ever copy one of your posts?
 

Bones0

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That is actually pretty easy to do, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it before in a video. Good luck finding it, though.

And no, Bones. Why would I ever copy one of your posts?
I was just joking because you mentioned bubbles as a detriment to those stages, and I don't remember anyone else ever bringing that up as a reason they are unplayable.

The problem with walk-offs is that players have to fight in bubbles and there is no concrete way of playing correctly when you can't space properly. This leads to a situation where a player who knows he isn't as good as his opponent can force the battle to go to the walk-off where outplaying someone is much more difficult, and one mistake can lead to a death.
 

Bones0

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Is my browser ****ing up, or do people suck at posting images lately? >_>

I see "zoolander walkoff" in the URL, so I can fill in the blanks.
 

Gea

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It isn't your browser, it's people trying to copy image addresses from google image search and some websites aren't friendly towards that. He was trying to post

 
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