Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Strong Badam]

and then you've successfully hit with uair and falco regular DI (not even SDI)'s out of it and hits you because you're samus and you're above falco

 

[leffen]

It's still an average tactic at best, since often falcos dair just wins because it hits inbetween.


Overall though, dair is not the reason falco or fox's platform camping works so well against samus (or peach/puff). Its because it forces samus to go into the air, and then you can easily get around/below them using your mobility advantage and then punish them.

Samus also can't really deal with foxs lasers. Yes, if Fox just spams lasers and lets samus set up 5 missiles then she may be able to approach (however, not really, just nair/jab the missiles) but you're not gonna let her. Setting up missiles take a **** ton of time and forces samus to either be in the air (****) or have a ****ton of lag on the ground.

Fox's lasers have no landing lag. Do the math.

 

[Bones0]

@Strong Bad

So what you're saying is:
Falco's dair beats Samus's uair (which doesn't happen). Falco wins.

Falco's dair gets completely outprioritized by Samus's uair. Falco wins anyway.

Hmmmmmmm...

 

[Ørn]

I regret bringing up the theory smash argument of whether or not Samus uair beats Falcos dair when he's on a platform (since it's dumb), but hey, let's recap:

- On most stages, Samus needs to use her full jump to reach Falco on the top platform. She'll need to poke quite a bit above the platform to hit Falco, Falco has a much easier time spacing from above with a jump (or double jump if necessary). You're still jumping up at Falco. Why are you jumping up at Falco?

- Samus' hitbox on her uair isn't constant. Look:

There's much more interesting things to talk about in the match-up, honestly.

 

[Strong Badam]

like how samus loses
(but not by too much)

 

[knightpraetor]

I want to see fox camp samus. I've never seen that before. no one risks trying to tilt missiles for ages while doing run away laser in between.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I want to see fox camp samus. I've never seen that before. no one risks trying to tilt missiles for ages while doing run away laser in between.

I timed out Oro?!'s samus on dreamland a couple days ago. It was really dumb and i almost lost because I really wanted the timeout win

 

[Deleted member]

I want to see fox camp samus. I've never seen that before. no one risks trying to tilt missiles for ages while doing run away laser in between.

i just reflect them. samus's jump/fall speed are too ****ty to do anything about it.

there's absolutely 0 reason for samus to ever win a projectile game with fox lol

everything else leffen said nailed it. seriously just get her to jump and do bad things to her.

 

[Tero.]

Samus has some gimmicks on Fox but should never win a single match if the Fox knows the match up
you can't uthrow uair/bair her but when she's in the air she can't do ****
she's so slow and her aerial mobility is bad + she does not have any good moves covering her below
dair is way to slow and if she's trying to nair you fox can just usmash
she can stall with bombs and try to land so fox just waits and punishs

if she's offstage fox can just bair

if she's camping fox he just shields, maneuvers around or hit missiles+ laser
she can't really approach fox and dair/shine beat her crouch cancel

honestly its just all about get her in the air (uthrow/platformcamp) then punish and ****
and stay away from that edge + DI her Dsmash

Edit:

Sheik and Puff totally destroy Samus

 

[ShroudedOne]

you just dash dance into drill or grab when she can CC, and after she can't CC you nair.

uthrow puts samus above you which is the position she hates to be in: she's in the air, and she's above a fast character with good moves that hit above him. i don't understand how people are so caught up on true combos and fail to realize when positional advantage is so absurdly in your favor that it's essentially a combo, just one you have to wait for.

laser when you're in a good position to, but don't do it stupidly to where you get hit by missiles.

I'm just glad that you said it.

 

[Wake]

I'm just glad that you said it.

Marth's juggles on Peach come to mind.

 

[Get Low]

i don't understand how people are so caught up on true combos and fail to realize when positional advantage is so absurdly in your favor that it's essentially a combo, just one you have to wait for.

I think that's a concept only Brawl players understand, and not enough Melee players look into.

 

[SleepyK]

I think that's a concept only Brawl players understand, and not enough Melee players look into.

while i agree with this, i feel like people arguing that "you should just camp/wait/be patient" are going against the primary reason lots of us are interested in this game in the first place.

mango would say that's "playin like a fu kn fa ggot" and i'm in agreement with this statement. part of the reason why we all like and love the feel of melee bros is because it provides us with a very special thing that no other fighting game does - it lets us play the game the way we want. The reason I initially picked Smash Bros over traditional 2d fighters is because it felt good. It provided me with a sense of freedom of movement that no other game provided. I wasn't limited to sticking to an x-axis with set jump distances. I could go where I wanted, when I wanted, and how I wanted. Throwing combat into the mix only adds to a unique playstyle.

Of course, as I improved I learned that movement isn't as free or as safe since you have to respect your opponent, but the feel is still there. The "correct" answer may to be carefully go for single hits and maintain a very tight spacing game, but you don't absolutely have to. You can play the game the way you want since you are unfettered by rules of movement (outside of character limitation and matchup etc). It's on you to find ways to beat your opponent's way of playing. Some people will adhere to the rules their opponent has laid down while others will man the **** up and get the **** in there and fight a *****

This is why I like Melee.

 

[Binx]

Well stated Sleepy, thats the main reason I keep playing this game, its so damn fun to be able to move, every other fighter feels restrictive comparably.

 

[Bones0]

I understand the benefit of having positional advantage even if it isn't a true combo or guaranteed followup. I don't think that means you can theory bros positional advantage to being just as good though. Just because you have the advantage doesn't mean you can rely on that advantage to pay off consistently. There are going to be times where trying to abuse your positional advantage completely backfires and you die, so to act like all Fox has to do is spam lasers and throw Samus into the air all game is just ridiculous. Perhaps I'd be a bit more convinced Fox vs. airborne Samus was that lopsided if I ever saw it happen in a match, but most of the instances I think of, the Samus weaves her way back down with bombs, maybe getting hit by an aerial or two. It's not at all comparable to Marth juggles which can last 5+ hits fairly easily.

 

[Van.]

two aerials per upthrow is pretty great for fox in a floaty mu

 

[FooltheFlames]

All the pokemans went up really high cept pchu. Im glad Mewtwo is finally getting his props! The Links get their own tier lulz. But i believe they should be higher than dk and luigi.

 

[Ripple]

http://www.twitch.tv/ripple884

WATCH! and tell people about it

 

[Strong Badam]

while i agree with this, i feel like people arguing that "you should just camp/wait/be patient" are going against the primary reason lots of us are interested in this game in the first place.

mango would say that's "playin like a fu kn fa ggot" and i'm in agreement with this statement. part of the reason why we all like and love the feel of melee bros is because it provides us with a very special thing that no other fighting game does - it lets us play the game the way we want. The reason I initially picked Smash Bros over traditional 2d fighters is because it felt good. It provided me with a sense of freedom of movement that no other game provided. I wasn't limited to sticking to an x-axis with set jump distances. I could go where I wanted, when I wanted, and how I wanted. Throwing combat into the mix only adds to a unique playstyle.

Of course, as I improved I learned that movement isn't as free or as safe since you have to respect your opponent, but the feel is still there. The "correct" answer may to be carefully go for single hits and maintain a very tight spacing game, but you don't absolutely have to. You can play the game the way you want since you are unfettered by rules of movement (outside of character limitation and matchup etc). It's on you to find ways to beat your opponent's way of playing. Some people will adhere to the rules their opponent has laid down while others will man the **** up and get the **** in there and fight a *****

This is why I like Melee.

That's all fine, but some of us are trying to get better. On top of that, his post was referring to positional advantage. Something that even the ballsiest of players (Mango, darkrain, Shiz) all abuse very well. Taking advantage of position is a technique that can be applied to all playstyles, not just campy ones.

 

[SleepyK]

That's all fine, but some of us are trying to get better. On top of that, his post was referring to positional advantage. Something that even the ballsiest of players (Mango, darkrain, Shiz) all abuse very well. Taking advantage of position is a technique that can be applied to all playstyles, not just campy ones.

i wanted to use that post i typed up @-@ and overlooked what he was talking about

my bad.


but that doesn't mean my post can't be useful to someone who's trying to get better, that's what you meant!

 

[Strong Badam]

yes it does sleepyk
everything's ruined cuz of you

 

[SleepyK]

yes it does sleepyk
everything's ruined cuz of you

Today, I realized Strong Bad was actually my mother



...man, that joke hurt more than i thought it would.

 

[BJN39]

When is the next list coming out? It's been almost 2 years.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

never!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[choknater]

puff down

young link up

besides that i don't really see any notable changes

maybe peach up but not really necessary

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The tier list still has more than needs to be done on it. I do not have a final date for the release.

 

[SleepyK]

falco only
final datestination

 

[ShroudedOne]

Falco dittos on FD > Fox dittos on FD

So +1 to SleepyK

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Think Bowser'll move up at all?

I ask if he'll move up because he can't possibly move down.

...Can he?

It'll also be interesting to see where Marth, Luigi, Young Link, and Mewtwo end up. With the (arguable) exception of Marth, they all seem to have particularly unique metagames.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Bowser is the worst character in the game because we can ban YS in bo3s and realistically he's never going to get far enough in tournament to play a bo5.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Yeah but Kirby.

 

[Zoler]

Yeah but Kirby.

Wut kirby is way better than bowser

 

[Bones0]

I'm sure PAL Kirby is. NTSC Kirby's dash is twice as slow or something ridiculous like that.

 

[choknater]

bowser is by far the worst

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Bowser has upB OOS shenanigans, forward b, ledge attack stuff, and survivability. Sure, they're all shenanigans. But it's better than Kirby. Kirby can crouch under lasers. That's about it.

IMO

Pichu > Bowser > Kirby

For bottom three.

 

[Bones0]

Kirby can crouch under lasers.

Not low ones.

 

[The Star King]

I'll settle this debate: nobody actually knows.

 

[KingofCereal]

No I think Ziv has it right. Pichu, Bowser, Kirby. Pichoo can be quick and annoying, Bowser can live for a while and has 1 good move, Kirby has nothing.

 

[The Star King]

I'm sure you have any decent amount of high level tournament experience with these characters, and your opinion isn't conjectural theorycrafting at all.

 

[Ripple]

Kirby can't be the worst because he actually has at least 1 match up in his favor.

Roy