Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[-ACE-]

They know that lol... but the fact that a well timed grab often beats poorly (and even not so poorly) spaced attacks is often overlooked.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Grab beats everything.

 

[kd-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg9Rn0qs-gE

This match and commentary is one of my earliest favorites, good to watch it again

 

[Varist]

too bad DA Dave sounds like such an obnoxious kid

 

[Deleted member]

a 24 year old kid?

 

[DerfMidWest]

the biggest of kids.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Thing is, we should imho mostly base on the top tier (ICs cutoff) matchups. Nobody else below this has a winning matchup against anybody of the top tiers (even is quite possible, but they don't win.

This is the kind of mentality that keeps lower tier metagames from evolving and opinions on them stagnant. You can't disregard matchups just because they don't occur 50 times in a tournament. Yes having a good matchup against the top characters in the game is important, but it doesn't devalue the character's matchup score on the whole.

 

[Divinokage]

This is the kind of mentality that keeps lower tier metagames from evolving and opinions on them stagnant. You can't disregard matchups just because they don't occur 50 times in a tournament. Yes having a good matchup against the top characters in the game is important, but it doesn't devalue the character's matchup score on the whole.

I've heard at FC when people start complaining about why their character's sucks then it's the characters fault for losing the match. I found that absolutely absurd because he was the one that chose the character to begin with, it's his fault as a player to not have gained the required knowledge to face a match-up correctly.

Of course, sometimes you will play sub-par to what you normally do, it happens to everybody but.. for that it's a matter of consistency to be able to play your best at all times.

So now that you have chosen a character that best represents you then right away you should do EVERYTHING to win and not get caught by surprise when you do lose. I feel like the main problem in smashers is simply the attitude towards competition, they do not understand that winning means knowing everything about every stage and character at the very least. You have to really want it!! You need that confidence that you will destroy everybody and it's YOUR path, the others don't matter because it's your dreams. Your dreams have to be unstoppable.

 

[Xyzz]

Anybody who believes that Kirby does well against anybody in top8 is just kidding himself, no offense.

That doesn't mean that nobody should ever play Kirby; there even are some amazing ones out there (Hack for example). However that doesn't change my opinion in the slightest. Hack is an amazing player, and gets to profit from the fact that most people are pretty unprepared for a Kirby (hell, lots of incredibly good players are unprepared for much better characters. E.g. SFAT not recalling / knowing that Pikachu can't use aerial control after his second up b, meaning he will plummet to his death if you keep holding the ledge, if he goes straight up with the second part of his up b from there. And I would bet large amounts of money that only a minority knew before Wobbles pointed it out int he commentary (myself included (. And that's just totally naturally, it's really hard to learn the ins and outs of a character where you never got to play somebody who is good with it ). If both players are equally skilled and know the matchup well, Kirby should lose to anybody in top 8.

But tier lists are definitely not everything in the character choice, feeling comfortable with the strengths and weaknesses of ones characters is far more important. E.g. I love the big punishes Peach can do, while not being as susceptible to dying from a single good read from the opponent as spacies are (:
Of course Falco is a better character, and I really enjoy playing him as well (I love how offensive he can be in comparison to Peach and some of his flashy stuff is really fun to pull off), but for now I am far more comfortable with Peach ... so screw the tier list :D

 

[Theftz22]

Anyone want to talk about samus?

 

[Bones0]

Samus beats Fox.

 

[The Star King]

Anyone want to talk about samus?

No .

 

[Xyzz]

Samus is already soooo boring to play against, talking won't be any better :D

 

[Ripple]

I'd like to hear what plup says about samus vs. spacies because I remember Hugs saying she beats falco and goes even with fox.

 

[Bones0]

Falco seems a lot worse. He has actual combos on her for at least a little bit, and lasers shuts down her ground game a lot (which is all she has unless there are plats nearby I guess).

 

[Xyzz]

I feel both spacies win, if and only if they are prepared to make her approach instead of jumping into her like idiots, but what do I know ... :D

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I think Samus is better vs Falco. She can shut down a lot of his metagame with UpB OOS. She (like everybody else) can edgeguard him much easier than Fox. And Falco doesn't have cakewalk Up Smash kills like Fox does. But yeah, good power shielding plus up b makes Falco a lot easier than Fox, IMO.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Plup told me that Samus isn't good vs Falco at APEX 2012.

I don't remember if he said anything about Fox.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Plup is probably right, but I couldn't see Fox being any easier. He can easily bair camp her to death. With Falco, I'm basing most of my knowledge of HugS and his dominance in the matchup, to the point where even PC Chris would only go Sheik vs him in tourney. I mained Samus myself for several years and held a good track record vs Falco players of the same level, while worse Fox players would beat me.

But yeah most of that knowledge is 2007-2009 Metagame based, so I could be entirely off base. It's not exactly a matchup that happens enough for me to think it has evolved too much, but Falco in generally is certainly a lot more dominant nowadays.

 

[KirbyKaze]

PC Chris used Marth and Peach vs HugS too. I'm not sure which one was his "go-to" character against Samus though.

 

[Divinokage]

Plup is probably right, but I couldn't see Fox being any easier. He can easily bair camp her to death. With Falco, I'm basing most of my knowledge of HugS and his dominance in the matchup, to the point where even PC Chris would only go Sheik vs him in tourney. I mained Samus myself for several years and held a good track record vs Falco players of the same level, while worse Fox players would beat me.

But yeah most of that knowledge is 2007-2009 Metagame based, so I could be entirely off base. It's not exactly a matchup that happens enough for me to think it has evolved too much, but Falco in generally is certainly a lot more dominant nowadays.

Ya things are MUCH MUCH faster now, I mean players these days punish you for WD, jumping, or going on platforms even. You really have to be careful with every little action you do.. so we'll see. Though these days, there really aren't any mid tier players (Players that use Mid Tier chars) that contribute that much for the metagame knowledge of 2012. So with that, its really hard to say what is working right on and how obscure matchups work. The higher tiers chars are too popular now. =P

 

[Bones0]

I don't see how Fox can just camp bair. Samus has way too much priority on just about everything for that to do any good.

 

[Warhawk]

Spacies still win she's just annoying because she doesn't let them fight her like they do most other characters and she can hardly be comboed.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Samus has her utilt, aka "the Duck."
Why is she not number 1?
**** is mad broke.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The anger of her windmill is also clearly top tier material.

 

[Zoler]

Fox and Falco demolishes samus.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Apparently, Fox/Samus isn't as bad as you'd think (Fox still wins though). I guess it has something to do with him not really being able to work past her CC like Falco, or control her movements as well (lasers). But I'm not really sure. Foxes just seem to struggle more than Falcos. Falco/Samus is pretty bad, however.

 

[SleepyK]

Plup told me that Samus isn't good vs Falco at APEX 2012.

I don't remember if he said anything about Fox.

really? interesting. I maintained the mentality that samus beat falco because of what hugs said.

did plup elaborate?

 

[Wake]

I'm have a difficult time figuring out how Fox could actually lose to Samus. Bones is silly.

 

[Bones0]

How could he win? He can't do anything. Throw combos? No. Approach? No. Camp? For how long? She has missiles 'n ****.

 

[Xyzz]

He has lasers! :D
I think he will win the shoot out (if it's not on FD) by utilizing platforms, because his lasers are somewhat faster, and he is much better at traversing the platforms. And if he does, Samus will have to approach him, and we all know how great Samus is at approaching people.

 

[Bones0]

Fox is going to win with just lasers and usmash. Wow, seems plausible. /sarcasm

 

[Strong Badam]

you just dash dance into drill or grab when she can CC, and after she can't CC you nair.

uthrow puts samus above you which is the position she hates to be in: she's in the air, and she's above a fast character with good moves that hit above him. i don't understand how people are so caught up on true combos and fail to realize when positional advantage is so absurdly in your favor that it's essentially a combo, just one you have to wait for.

laser when you're in a good position to, but don't do it stupidly to where you get hit by missiles.

 

[Divinokage]

Seriously, hello, you have a reflector too... lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

reflecting missiles is rarely a good idea
SECRET SAMUS TECHNIQUE of dash attacking into reflected missiles is very unfortunate for the spacie if it happens

 

[Ørn]

Falco definitely beats Samus by a fair margin. There's very little Samus can do against...

1) Shielding. Falco can easily punish most of Samus' attempts at hitting Falco's shield. It's pretty sad, really. Spacing ftilts on Falco's shield will only get you so far, and Samus' jump is too slow to really use aerials on shields effectively. Samus' grab is super slow and is super risky to use vs. Falco.

2) Platform camping. I mean, Samus can sorta poke with uair, but she has a super slow jump and you're lucky if uair does more than 5 damage when poking from below.

UpB OoS isn't a dealbreaker in the match-up at all. Falco does just fine by grabbing Samus instead of pressuring her shield, or spacing auto-cancelled bairs or even dairs against Samus.

Also, Falco's dair is a really, really strong tool vs. Samus, especially in NTSC. It completely negates her crouch cancel game. That move is so ********.

Falco also combos Samus just fine.

Sure, Falco might need to play a bit more patient than in other match-ups, but he has all the tools to do so, so why the **** wouldn't he, lol

I personally think Fox is a fair bit easier, but he's still really good vs. Samus. Samus just has an easier time spacing around most of what Fox can do. Drill -> shine -> usmash is really good though. Fox is also really good at just running circles around Samus.

Of course, I'm simplifying a lot of things, and Samus has a bunch of cool tricks and some really effective BnB against space animals, so it's not unwinnable or anything.

My $0.02

EDIT: And yeah, what Strong Bad says is true. Just throw her into the air lol

 

[Zoler]

I'm starting to believe everything Bones posts in this thread is just trolling.

 

[Bones0]

Falco definitely beats Samus by a fair margin. There's very little Samus can do against...

1) Shielding. Falco can easily punish most of Samus' attempts at hitting Falco's shield. It's pretty sad, really. Spacing ftilts on Falco's shield will only get you so far, and Samus' jump is too slow to really use aerials on shields effectively. Samus' grab is super slow and is super risky to use vs. Falco.

2) Platform camping. I mean, Samus can sorta poke with uair, but she has a super slow jump and you're lucky if uair does more than 5 damage when poking from below.

UpB OoS isn't a dealbreaker in the match-up at all. Falco does just fine by grabbing Samus instead of pressuring her shield, or spacing auto-cancelled bairs or even dairs against Samus.

Also, Falco's dair is a really, really strong tool vs. Samus, especially in NTSC. It completely negates her crouch cancel game. That move is so ********.

Falco also combos Samus just fine.

Sure, Falco might need to play a bit more patient than in other match-ups, but he has all the tools to do so, so why the **** wouldn't he, lol

I personally think Fox is a fair bit easier, but he's still really good vs. Samus. Samus just has an easier time spacing around most of what Fox can do. Drill -> shine -> usmash is really good though.

Of course, I'm simplifying a lot of things, and Samus has a bunch of cool tricks and some really effective BnB against space animals, so it's not unwinnable or anything.

My $0.02

EDIT: And yeah, what Strong Bad says is true. Just throw her into the air lol

1. I don't think Falco has any good OoS punishes... If Samus is hitting the back of his shield he can bair OoS I guess, but that's about it unless she spaced poorly and he can dair OoS. Grab is lackluster, as well as shine since she'll go so far that only grounded shines will even guarantee a single hit followup.

2. Uair beats dair, or at least trades (I have tested this). Falco does fine on platforms because his dair still does protect him, but it's certainly not a strategy to rely on. Lasers are where it's at.




The main reasons I think Falco beats Samus are:

1. Lasers lock down her spacing. She relies heavily on shielding to hold her position and WDing out with moves to advance or protect her retreat. Lasers make her shielding, and more importantly, her WD OoS attacks more predictable.

2. She can't CC dair, and Falco can get a good chunk of % with simple pillars and abusing his sick FH bair when she floats to high to true combo.

3. He pesters her recovery pretty hard with lasers, and has early kill opportunities by intercepting at multiple points with a relatively safe dair.

4. Most of the weak points of his matchup can be avoided. His recovery gets wrecked, and he can get comboed kind of hard, but she isn't really agile enough to get solid followups on good DI for most moves. She ends up having to end sequences preemptively with a random nair (Mario status) or just hard reading a missile. Her OoS game is great when Falco tries to stay on top of her, but good players only get up-B'd 5-10 times before they become comfortable avoiding it while still threatening with dair.

 

[Ørn]

1. I don't think Falco has any good OoS punishes... If Samus is hitting the back of his shield he can bair OoS I guess, but that's about it unless she spaced poorly and he can dair OoS. Grab is lackluster, as well as shine since she'll go so far that only grounded shines will even guarantee a single hit followup.

Dair OoS everything that isn't a well spaced ftilt or utilt. Samus' ground moves have considerable lag. Trying to dash attack Falco only to have him somehow get his shield up in time is the most frustrating thing ever.

2. Uair beats dair, or at least trades (I have tested this). Falco does fine on platforms because his dair still does protect him, but it's certainly not a strategy to rely on. Lasers are where it's at.

It trades at most. It doesn't beat dair unless you space it on Falco's back or something.

Even if it trades, you do 1% damage and they do 12%. It's a bad strategy to challenge his dair from below.

The rest of your points are valid enough, though I already mentioned dair destroying her. Falco's lasers honestly aren't much of an issue to her recovery though except you end up taking like an additional 5% damage.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Samus has way more disjoint from her hurtbox to hitbox on her Uair than Falco does on his dair. Ignoring the moments where the hitbox disappears, it will beat it out right.