Stevo
Smash Champion
has anyone tried ducking under the bairs? Doc is pretty short.
just a thought.....
just a thought.....
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
We can still manage.
Bing
Smash Master
Thank you for posting this, I was tempted to try Doc next time I faced a Jiggs...
JPOBS
Smash Hero
doc also avoids tons of the usual rest setups just by nature of his character, and he has one of (the best?) missed rest punish.
And ya pills ****.
Does downthrow->fair legitimately combo on jiggs?
And ya pills ****.
Does downthrow->fair legitimately combo on jiggs?
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- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,555
yea if you're fast enough
DeadLastClown
Smash Apprentice
Why is Game and Watch so Low? He has pretty standard moves and some strong ones. Is it because of how inconsistent he is? I found out my cousin from out of town is still playing Melee and he nearly beat my Falco with his G&W, his "Credit Card?" (Fair) has pretty good priority, he is somewhat fast (with his WD) and his tilts, aerials, recovery and smashes are fairly useful.
Bing
Smash Master
Have you seen his Shield.. its smaller then him at full. I dunno too much about him though, theres more reasons
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I don't think he has a legitimate answer to hard projectile spam. His weight is horrible, because he dies early, and he's subject to all sorts of gimpy BS because of it (like his dthrow). Sure, his hitboxes are admittedly really good, but not being able to L-cancel some of them probably cripples him, too.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have much of a chance against spacies, and virtually none against Sheik. That's as much as I know about him.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have much of a chance against spacies, and virtually none against Sheik. That's as much as I know about him.
JonnyW
Smash Ace
He doesn't ***** by lower tier crap like Young Link and Doc.
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Since when is a good YL matchup a criteria for being high on the tier list? I think you're trying to argue that there is a hard counter to her, which hasn't been proven outside of GFs.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Neither does Puff.
AFAIK YL Puff is a fair MU probably, mostly because it looks like (judging from Armada vs HBox) Jigglypuff can play to avoid YL's projectile arcs and then it just becomes a big stalemate. Puff has the stronger punishes but YLink has better maneuverability overall. Seems reasonable overall. Especially once you remove platforms or stick YL on a small level. If Puff gets a lead then it's really hard for YL to force Puff to do anything if she stays above the bomb projectile arc (but not so far above it that she puts herself in a position to be up aired). I don't think this is the 7-3 counter matchup that a lot of people seem to think it is.
Mango doesn't think Doc can beat HBox's Puff style because it never commits to anything. I'm not quite as extreme in that regard, but I think the hyper conservative style of play is really effective against Doc. I think he has some tricks that bypass it decently (namely caping the back air to hit her and turn her around), but they're mainly tricks and not as solid as what she's doing because of the range disparity and because you can never kill with the cape nonsense. I don't like the argument that he kills her at low percent - Fairs are not a good approach and there's no real reason for her to ever land close to Doc (and that cuts out his smashes and grab).
I don't think Doc's duck is great vs Puff's bairs. Mostly because Doc is short and stubby.
I'm gonna compare it to the duck strat with Sheik because I'm not sure what other characters duck vs Puff and I'm familiar with Sheik's. Basically, when Sheik crouches a rising bair, unless Puff basically did it fading away from Sheik (and I mean really fading away with it), Sheik can punish it with her rising SH bair or other nonsense because of her massive range. And if she does fade away really far, then Sheik gets a decent position to shoot needles at it. If Puff decides to try and counter this with descending approach bairs, they can be jumped over and then you can fall on her with your gigantic limbs because Sheik has tons of range.
Doc, to my knowledge, can't do these things very effectively. He doesn't have the range to challenge even light fade away bairs because he's outclassed to hard in range-mobility. His pills don't provide a hard enough punish because they are easily dealt with by simple repositioning and/or more attacks. If he predicts her doing a really committed approach with bair to counter his duck then he probably has the better move for punishing it when he hits (dunk) but it's also slower, requires some prediction (whereas Sheik's don't, not really), and there's less incentive for Puff to take that action anyway because he's comparable worse at dealing with the simple fade away stuff because he's... short... and stubby.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Haha, I'm usually going the other way around. If in doubt I suspect people of making fun / being trolling, before thinking they'd say cringe-worthy stuff
@GaW being bad: another thing is that he has the worst shield roll by far.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
G&W doesn't have a strong enough gimmick. His normalcy will keep him down even if he's a better character than Yoshi, etc.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i can see why so many people complain about puff when they're not using characters like IC or YL
you have to bait puff to do a bad aerial, but in order to bait puff you have to get at a close or mid-close range. pretty scary stuff!
however in the wise words of chris hu
YOU DONT SCARE, I DONT SCARE.
you have to bait puff to do a bad aerial, but in order to bait puff you have to get at a close or mid-close range. pretty scary stuff!
however in the wise words of chris hu
YOU DONT SCARE, I DONT SCARE.
stelzig
Smash Lord
Kirbykaze: Yeah both me and Hbox seems to agree on the MU being Fair. I have never seen him put numbers on the MU but he did say the MU wasn't in Y links favor. I can't say for sure he was serious but why would he not be.
The MU is very tricky/gay but like you said Puff have better punishes but Y link has a lot of other stuff.
The MU is very tricky/gay but like you said Puff have better punishes but Y link has a lot of other stuff.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I guarantee juan was serious when he said it was in puff's favor. I'm sure he knows that his usual style of play (which is good enough to wreck 99% of the global melee community) needs a few slight adjustments as YL doesn't possess certain weaknesses that most other characters have in comparison to puff (mostly, YL can slightly out maneuver her as KK said). Now puff knows what it's like for Ganon to face puff, for instance (although that is more extreme I'll admit, but)... you are playing a character that is more agile, and huge reads become often become necessary just to land a hit. I also think puff wins the matchup but he can't go about it the same way he does most other matchups. It seems like the MU requires an amount of patience that would cause me to pull my hair out lol.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
shielding heavily weakens young link.
it makes bombs bounce so that he can't approach you after, so he has to opt to run away and pull more bombs, which you can shield. light shield is even better.
wd out of shield is a great way to approach ylink
with puff though.... idk it's really a chore to even get near him lol. it's an obstacle course and it really takes some heart to get through lol. i feel like watching the hour long gf's at apex again... maybe...
it makes bombs bounce so that he can't approach you after, so he has to opt to run away and pull more bombs, which you can shield. light shield is even better.
wd out of shield is a great way to approach ylink
with puff though.... idk it's really a chore to even get near him lol. it's an obstacle course and it really takes some heart to get through lol. i feel like watching the hour long gf's at apex again... maybe...
Bones0
Smash Legend
Shroomed
Smash Master
Doc sucks *** and I'm gonna main Marth.
Jigglypuff ***** Doc because you can't do ANYTHING about bair. You have to hope/guess a lot of moves. The best you get is a trade with your fair to his bair which is good for you at decent percents. But in order to land that fair you almost have to know EXACTLY what he's going to do, and you still have to start it early enough so that it'd be out in time.
**** Doc, it's Marth time =D
(Just kidding I'll probably be playing Doc for like another year before my Marth is ready for Nationals)
Jigglypuff ***** Doc because you can't do ANYTHING about bair. You have to hope/guess a lot of moves. The best you get is a trade with your fair to his bair which is good for you at decent percents. But in order to land that fair you almost have to know EXACTLY what he's going to do, and you still have to start it early enough so that it'd be out in time.
**** Doc, it's Marth time =D
(Just kidding I'll probably be playing Doc for like another year before my Marth is ready for Nationals)
Bones0
Smash Legend
Cape bairs.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
what an answer
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Does Ylink have no approach outside of his bombs? I hear that mentioned a lot with him, but it's not like he's helpless without them? Or he is?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
The only thing YL has that prevents Puff's bair from ****** his everything is the fact that his bombs beat the back air. Most characters don't have a move that beats the back air with that much consistency (and none of his other moves do) so if he forgoes the use of bombs then she can just bair ad infinitum and then there's no real danger of her being anywhere in the air (except stupid places like directly above & below him).
If YL doesn't have a bomb flying or on hand, all Puff has to do is keep herself level with YL and there's not much he can do.
If YL doesn't have a bomb flying or on hand, all Puff has to do is keep herself level with YL and there's not much he can do.
http://i.imgur.com/WanMO.gif
vs
http://i.imgur.com/ecrxe.gif
I wonder if Jpuff bair trades vs the first hit by hitting YL's arm and loses to the second hit because the arm isn't there.
Puff can snipe YL's legs in either part, but YL's short hop with a rising bair would time the second hit into a spaced Jpuff bair, YL would ff between the two hits and make it hard to not hit the area above his legs. Either of them could choose to not do an aerial and beat each others timing.
Just interesting to look at, but I can't tell from the gifs. Anyone tried this? Considering Jpuff has to hit you directly horizontally (a little up from the dj+instant aerial) or from an angle while descending, covering that section of area seems ideal.
Edit: There is also falling uair while jpuff is above ylink. If Ylink falls faster, he can cover his entire descent with uair by falling towards jpuff so that puff would hit herself by bairing towards him.
Disjointed sex kicks are good.
vs
http://i.imgur.com/ecrxe.gif
I wonder if Jpuff bair trades vs the first hit by hitting YL's arm and loses to the second hit because the arm isn't there.
Puff can snipe YL's legs in either part, but YL's short hop with a rising bair would time the second hit into a spaced Jpuff bair, YL would ff between the two hits and make it hard to not hit the area above his legs. Either of them could choose to not do an aerial and beat each others timing.
Just interesting to look at, but I can't tell from the gifs. Anyone tried this? Considering Jpuff has to hit you directly horizontally (a little up from the dj+instant aerial) or from an angle while descending, covering that section of area seems ideal.
Edit: There is also falling uair while jpuff is above ylink. If Ylink falls faster, he can cover his entire descent with uair by falling towards jpuff so that puff would hit herself by bairing towards him.
Disjointed sex kicks are good.
stelzig
Smash Lord
My idea is better! Once you realise it, you'll never be able to see anything else
Bones0
Smash Legend
Someone should texture hack G&W's aerials.
Bing
Smash Master
Yeah thats true, G&W has a ton of options for texture hacks, could be amazing...
unknown522
Some guy
yes! I made a post about this each time hbox lost to armada and how he didn't play a shield game at all
Also, shroomed knows whats up with the jiggs MU
leffen
Smash Champion
I think calling a matchup in jiggs / docs favor when we've seen SOOOOO little off it (and, hbox is much better than shroomed). I think people should also start to realize how massively disadvantaged jiggs bair is on shield... esp when its stale. Spotdodging it / WDoosing or just avoiding it to get in close (doc can't really punish it outright, but he has the advantage up close)
I think people are still stuck in the "bair spam is easy" mentality when its actually really hard and risky if your opponent knows whats up.
@Unknown: Jiggs can't really gain ground (she cannot approach with it) with shielding very well (since YL will just poke at it from above, in which way jiggs is really slow). Eventually she will have to stop shielding and while shielding shes limited enough (once her shield gets small) that YL could actually just use his bombs to cover options and make up a pretty scary offense (this is also armadas weakest aspect of the matchup imo)
I think people are still stuck in the "bair spam is easy" mentality when its actually really hard and risky if your opponent knows whats up.
@Unknown: Jiggs can't really gain ground (she cannot approach with it) with shielding very well (since YL will just poke at it from above, in which way jiggs is really slow). Eventually she will have to stop shielding and while shielding shes limited enough (once her shield gets small) that YL could actually just use his bombs to cover options and make up a pretty scary offense (this is also armadas weakest aspect of the matchup imo)
choknater
Smash Obsessed
scorpion master punished bair many times with wd oos fsmash and dsmash
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Once you get hit by one, it's really hard to regain your positioning, but I'd imagine that Doc has some good movement options OoS after blocking one. I don't really know, however. It just makes sense in my head. 
Doc has solid mobility in both the air and ground and a quick jab if he can catch Jiggz still on the ground(forcing her to shield or pop up if she was trying to jump and maybe combo into Uair or Dsmash depending on %). He can Dsmash instead of jab if he's worried about CC or her WD'ing back and be totally safe if she blocks iirc. Dsmash is a strong move too lol.
I also think he could just Dair sometimes and keep Puff from coming in and if it connects he gets to combo usually(different stuff depending on when and where he hit her).
I never really thought Doc/Puff was great for Puff, but I have no current opinion on the matchup outside of her probably struggling with it.
I also think he could just Dair sometimes and keep Puff from coming in and if it connects he gets to combo usually(different stuff depending on when and where he hit her).
I never really thought Doc/Puff was great for Puff, but I have no current opinion on the matchup outside of her probably struggling with it.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Doc doesn't have great range. Jiggs can just camp the **** out of him on any stage besides Yoshi's it seems to me.Once you get hit by one, it's really hard to regain your positioning, but I'd imagine that Doc has some good movement options OoS after blocking one. I don't really know, however. It just makes sense in my head.
I dunno, Jiggs just seems to have every advantage in the match-up.
@PP
If Doc Dairs a lot he'll get kicked in the face. His recovery also makes it impossible to get back safely.
JonnyW
Smash Ace
Who banned KK? Jesus smashboard mods.
Leffen knows. Bairs can be beat by so much stuff. People just ***** cause WoP bair stuff is easy.
unknown522
Some guy
He asked to be banned.
Wants to take a break from the boards
@ leffen: I see, but I disagree on some parts
@ PP: surprisingly, jiggs' u-air is one of the few up moves in the game that will beat doc's d-air clean. B-air beats it too (but that's to be expected). Doc's jab -> move doesn't work in most scenarios in general (unless they don't DI the hit [even DI inwards for most floater chars will let them escape]) and this is assuming that they don't CC/ASDI down to punish
Wants to take a break from the boards
@ leffen: I see, but I disagree on some parts
@ PP: surprisingly, jiggs' u-air is one of the few up moves in the game that will beat doc's d-air clean. B-air beats it too (but that's to be expected). Doc's jab -> move doesn't work in most scenarios in general (unless they don't DI the hit [even DI inwards for most floater chars will let them escape]) and this is assuming that they don't CC/ASDI down to punish
john!
Smash Hero
i'll never understand why people do that.
why couldn't he just have asked a friend to change his password, or something?
or he could have just summoned a burst of willpower and resolved to not visit the boards more than 10 minutes a day
meh, banning yourself just seems so... irrevokable. more power to him i guess, if that's what he wants.
why couldn't he just have asked a friend to change his password, or something?
or he could have just summoned a burst of willpower and resolved to not visit the boards more than 10 minutes a day
meh, banning yourself just seems so... irrevokable. more power to him i guess, if that's what he wants.
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david's got mad homework to do
if you request a ban it can be lifted by request or you set terms beforehand. silly john
if you request a ban it can be lifted by request or you set terms beforehand. silly john
I never suggested Doc spam Dair lol(unless he gets knocked into the air a lot I guess), but it's a good option to have against her due to his aerial mobility and FH height that lots of characters don't get to enjoy vs her.
If he recovers high then Puff basically can't edgeguard him. Pills and Dair make his recovery from high up great, and that's where her aerials send him. Even when he's coming in low she can't beat his up-B and has to grab the edge to get the KO. Dsmash might work but it's techable I think and possibly a trade so Puff couldn't even set up another edgeguard/dodge after the Dsmash.
@Unknown: Interesting about Uair, but I believe that move is somewhat difficult to time(also how is Puff going to get directly underneath Doc?). Bair probably does too, but I think Doc having as much aerial mobility as he does can typically drift away from that move and dodge or go into her at an angle she can't get right beside and kick.
I have faith in Doc's boxing game *shrug*
Dsmash is the mixup if they wanna hold down or run away, and jab to stuff is the mixup if they don't. Lots of characters don't have it that good up close lol. Puff especially.