Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[john!]

if you request a ban it can be lifted by request or you set terms beforehand. silly john

oh. i've never banned myself so i wouldn't know...

but that's still more work than just logging off for a few days... oolmonke

 

[The Good Doctor]

I never suggested Doc spam Dair lol(unless he gets knocked into the air a lot I guess), but it's a good option to have against her due to his aerial mobility and FH height that lots of characters don't get to enjoy vs her.

If he recovers high then Puff basically can't edgeguard him. Pills and Dair make his recovery from high up great, and that's where her aerials send him. Even when he's coming in low she can't beat his up-B and has to grab the edge to get the KO. Dsmash might work but it's techable I think and possibly a trade so Puff couldn't even set up another edgeguard/dodge after the Dsmash.


@Unknown: Interesting about Uair, but I believe that move is somewhat difficult to time(also how is Puff going to get directly underneath Doc?). Bair probably does too, but I think Doc having as much aerial mobility as he does can typically drift away from that move and dodge or go into her at an angle she can't get right beside and kick.

I have faith in Doc's boxing game *shrug*

Dsmash is the mixup if they wanna hold down or run away, and jab to stuff is the mixup if they don't. Lots of characters don't have it that good up close lol. Puff especially.

You overestimate pills, and underestimate Puff's edge guarding. Pills are not that great of an option, the Puff can just Fair you and your pill. You said "Doc can just throw Dair out", which is just silly.

 

[stelzig]

He said doc could dair sometimes.

Even when he's coming in low she can't beat his up-B and has to grab the edge to get the KO. Dsmash might work but it's techable I think and possibly a trade so Puff couldn't even set up another edgeguard/dodge after the Dsmash.

Doc's sweetspot on the ledge is really low, so i'm not sure puff can hit him with dsmash if he sweetspots.

 

[The Good Doctor]

He said doc could dair sometimes.


Doc's sweetspot on the ledge is really low, so i'm not sure puff can hit him with dsmash if he sweetspots.

To keep her out, yeah. It's a slow move, and if it's baiting Jiggs gets at least one hit.
Risky move is risky, and risky moves against Puff are usually pretty bad ones too. You know since, one mistake can be a stock.

As for his sweetspot, Doc has those magnet hands so if he does it right Doc should be fine against Puff DSmash. Still doesnt stop her from grabbing the edge and resting him for landing on stage....

 

[Strong Badam]

oh. i've never banned myself so i wouldn't know...

but that's still more work than just logging off for a few days... oolmonke

takes less willpower

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah. Im pretty much done with SWF myself. Only reason i come on is to harass the MW boards and check on the ssbpd stuff. And the MBR social chat

 

[choknater]

This thread is pretty legit though

 

[ShroudedOne]

Not intentionally, I haven't been in MD (outside of the social thread and this one) in weeks. Perhaps that's why I still like it here.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm definitely liking ssbpd at this moment.. since my ranking is so high with Ganon.. lol.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Where did Kaostar go?
We need to debate Zelda vs Mewtwo!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I miss that guy. Much better troll than varist.

 

[T-Cash]

I personally disagree since there's more evidence of Ganon and Samus doing much better on average in local tournament or even large tournaments than Docs.

if it wasnt for him being easily gimpable doc would be an amazing character ...i agree he is better than samus ..gannon is a little debatable but doc has a little bit more rep as a character does better with teams ...has amazing grab combos ... i love my doctor i see his flaws now after playing with him in the two tourney i attended ...everyone plays doc now=l

 

[leffen]

I think doc is fair bit above samus, and both of them are sooooo much better than ganon (I don't think ganon is next after samus tbh)

 

[stelzig]

I think doc is fair bit above samus, and both of them are sooooo much better than ganon (I don't think ganon is next after samus tbh)

Thisssss. Ganon... pfffft.

 

[Little England]

Notes:
-My tier list is based upon the merits of each character, according to current human ability. (ie. just because Marth players aren't placing as well as they did in the past, that doesn't make him any worse as a character and vice versa for Falco) also (Yoshi isn't going to be super high because he can parry because nobody has mastered that technique.)
-Those characters that are separated with forward slashes are very close in terms of tiers. In these instances I put the character that might be slightly better first.


Fox
Marth
Falco/Sheik
Puff
Peach/Falcon
ICs
Doc
Ganon
Samus/Pikachu
Luigi
...After this it doesn't matter to me. I also think Ness is reeeeeally underrated (he might be next to Link), but you could just call that my bias.

Here's my reasoning for the top characters:

Fox:He has no bad matchups. His two closest matchups imo are Falco and Marth. Falco might have a veeeeery slight advantage but I doubt it. On paper, Marth could have an advantage on Fox because he outpioritizes him and can punish him to death but realistically it just doesn't happen.

Marth: He loses to one character, Sheik. Who else does he have a disadvantage against? Falcon maybe in the sliiiightest, but the general consensus is that that's an even matchup. Marth is a really good character.

Falco: Unlike Marth, I feel Falco has a lot of borderline matchups, which is why I put him where I did. I think Falco loses to ICs and Marth. I think borderline matchups that he has include Fox, Puff, Sheik and Peach. I've honestly never understood the "Falco is broken" craze. I only put him above Sheik because of his versatility. I could honestly see Falco fluctuate from the #2-#4 spots.

Sheik Sheik is kind of in Falco's boat. I feel she loses to ICs and slightly Fox and has a borderline matchup with Falco. Aside from that she handles most characters pretty easily.

Jigglypuff Puff is kinda funky. She loses to Fox and probably has a slight disadvantage on Marth (and possibly ICs according to some ICs players I've talked with). If these were her only bad MUs I'd put her right under those two or with them, but I also feel she handles midtiers-low tiers worse than Sheik and Falco do which is why I put her there. Puff is overall very solid, and Puff players should bair less. lol (In the past there were plenty of good Puffs and not just 2 or 3 because Puff players weren't brainless back then.)

Peach I feel Peach has some pretty solid MUs. Campy Fox with a top platform and Jigglypuff are probably the hardest for her. Aside from that, I feel she handles every character pretty well.

Falcon I think Falcon is very underrated. There has yet to be a Falcon who tech chases spacies and converts off of grabs consistently. Sometimes I just want Falcon players to knee their opponent off the stage and get an edge guard but they just go for more flash. lol anyways, he probably still loses to spacies, but not that hard and can deal with every other character. I feel his mobility on Sheik keeps him at only a small disadvantage on her.

IC's - Luigi These are just my opinions, but people don't play these characters enough for me to truly give a good analysis based upon each character's merits.

 

[gm jack]

And puff is no longer a character, or is simply below luigi?

 

[Little England]

Oh **** lol! I'll throw her in there. >_>

 

[Bing]

Wow... I Almost **** a Brick when I saw Marth as #2. I approve of this list

 

[john!]

Notes:
-My tier list is based upon the merits of each character, according to current human ability. (ie. just because Marth players aren't placing as well as they did in the past, that doesn't make him any worse as a character and vice versa for Falco) also (Yoshi isn't going to be super high because he can parry because nobody has mastered that technique.)

this doesn't really make sense. your placement of yoshi is heavily based on what current yoshi players are capable of, yet your placement of marth is high in spite of what current marth players are capable of. seems like you're using different criteria for different characters.

also, if IC's beat falco and sheik and jigglypuff, why are they so low on your list? that's more advantageous matchups against the top 5 than peach and falcon have

Spoiler

combined

 

[Bing]

No matter what people say, their list will have a reflection of tournament results and how people use said Character. I agree with what you're saying John, IC's should be higher up the list, but most likely because of a lack there of skilled IC's players, They stay a bit further down the list. They are due for bump up the list a bit fairly soon though.

 

[gm jack]

Because IC get completely wrecked by Peach in a way no other top tier gets wrecked?

 

[Little England]

this doesn't really make sense. your placement of yoshi is heavily based on what current yoshi players are capable of, yet your placement of marth is high in spite of what current marth players are capable of. seems like you're using different criteria for different characters.

also, if IC's beat falco and sheik and jigglypuff, why are they so low on your list? that's more advantageous matchups against the top 5 than peach and falcon have

Spoiler

combined

In regards to the first part of your post: Maybe I should specify that when I say "capable of" I mean in regards to tech skill, not player skill level. Does that make sense?

About ICS: They get raaaaaaaped by Fox and Peach and lose to Falcon and possibly Ganon. Their advantageous MUs seem to only be slightly in their favor (aside from Sheik maybe) so this doesn't merit a higher rank than Sheik and Falco imo. In addition ICs seem they might struggle with some mid-low tiers as well more than their higher tier counterparts.

 

[choknater]

Ics do not have an advantage against falco. Not in the slightest.

 

[john!]

guys, i wasn't talking about my personal thoughts on the ice climbers, i was just responding to LE's thoughts about them (for the record, i think they are 8th best)

In regards to the first part of your post: Maybe I should specify that when I say "capable of" I mean in regards to tech skill, not player skill level. Does that make sense?

so your view is that yoshi players are not to blame for his lack of tournament success (due to his high technical barrier) but marth players are to blame for marth's lack of success (as opposed to blaming the character itself)?

that does make sense, except i'm not so sure that it's the fault of marth players that he isn't doing well in tournaments. maybe marth is simply a limited character, and we haven't realized it until the metagame developed this far?

discussions like these are good to have because people seem to make their tier lists based on totally different criteria, which makes the topic difficult to discuss

 

[Little England]

@Chok
It's just my opinion on the MU. If you care enough to discuss it feel free to hit me up on aim. I'm not stubborn; my opinion will change with good reason.

@John
You essentially get my point, ya. lol (As a side note, the greater smash community is responsible for the stagnation of low tier development. They are so much better than what they're given credit for imo.)

Also, that's what bugs me the most about this thread. What I don't understand is why somebody would base a tier list around tournament results. There are so many factors that go into tournament performance that don't relate at all to character ability.

 

[JPOBS]

The value of having a list based on conjecture and theory which has been shown to not work in practice is precisely zero.

We can sit here and shoot the piss all night about if the short comings of a tournament based list, but that to me still equates to being more worthy than a list based essentially on imagination.

 

[twizzlerj]

The value of having a list based on conjecture and theory which has been shown to not work in practice is precisely zero.

We can sit here and shoot the piss all night about if the short comings of a tournament based list, but that to me still equates to being more worthy than a list based essentially on imagination.

most common sense filled thing i have read all day thank you sir

 

[stelzig]

Eh, I find a pure tournament based list to be meaningless because we already know how the tournaments go. I don't really have any interest in seeing a compilation of "recent tournament results" as a tier list. I'd much rather see a list where we reflect the characters based on tournament play (but not results), and matchup knowledge/theory.

 

[KrIsP!]

Someone should make a results-orientated tier list so everyone can see how **** it is.
Peach
Puff
fox
YLink

 

[JPOBS]

I don't think it should be purely tournament based. But tournaments are important for showing changes in the metagame, so it should be a heavy influence.

Although something interesting i've noticed is that people are usually okay with moving characters up after being proven to be better than thought (recently jiggs and pika come to mind). But almost everyone seems opposed to actively moving someone down.

 

[Bing]

Tournament based lists are sort of... pointless... I completely agree with jpobs.

Im sorry, I shouldnt say pointless, but, we cant make a list out of results...

And Krisp, needs more Falco derp.

 

[stelzig]

Tournament based lists are sort of... pointless... I completely agree with jpobs.

hmmm? I was the one who said tournament based lists were pointless, lol.

Although something interesting i've noticed is that people are usually okay with moving characters up after being proven to be better than thought (recently jiggs and pika come to mind). But almost everyone seems opposed to actively moving someone down.

I think people are too fast at moving characters up sometimes as well.

 

[choknater]

i dont have aim anymore but i can discuss it here

falco can control space very well against ic's.

there is an essential position that all characters want to be in against ice climbers. that is directly in front of them, outside of smash range, but in the middle of their full wd range. in the middle of their wd, they can't do anything. they have to wait for the wd lag to end and then do something at the end of their wd. when falco is in this spot, he can do a number of things like dair in place to stop their wd, fsmash them to push them off the ledge, laser, or other things.

falco is one of the best characters at forcing the opponent into a bad position and he can stuff all of ic's options as long as he knows what they are. ic's are forced to use gimmicky tricks to break through his laser pressure, and falco's awareness of these are what will make the matchup dynamic.

ofc the falco also has to know how to not get grabbed by ic's, which can be a chore, but usually the better falcos will find ways around their grab pretty quickly. especially after they have lost a couple stocks because of it

 

[john!]

The value of having a list based on conjecture and theory which has been shown to not work in practice is precisely zero.

We can sit here and shoot the piss all night about if the short comings of a tournament based list, but that to me still equates to being more worthy than a list based essentially on imagination.

i agree.

the funny thing is that people who advocate theory-based lists often don't realize that their theories about melee are almost exclusively formed from tournament matches!

 

[stelzig]

ithe funny thing is that people who advocate theory-based lists often don't realize that their theories about melee are almost exclusively formed from tournament matches!

I think that is actually exactly why the post you quoted is silly. He doesn't think a tier list should be completely based on tournaments either. His statement doesn't say anything because no one's making super theory bros. lists either.

Edit: That's not to say that I think ness deserves to be placed where Little England said or that we should move around a ton of low tiers because they're underrated.

 

[JPOBS]

I'm mostly just an advocate for changing the tier list as frequently and as often as dictated by the metagame (which is only ever showcased through tournaments).

If that means we have a new tierlist every year, then I'm fine with that.

 

[choknater]

me too

that's actually how japan does their tier lists, especially for new fighting games. constant updates

 

[The Good Doctor]

Why don't we just base our tier list off match-ups, like most fighters I've seen do....

 

[Strong Badam]

rate the G&W vs. Zelda MU and explain why you feel that way

 

[Stevo]

Zelda>G&W because Zelda can press down B