Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Cactuar]

Yeah, compiling rather than creating from scratch was the idea.

Individual character forums aren't likely to have 1x26's that all agree with each other though, so there would be some averaging or debating involved. To be expected.

 

[Warhawk]

Yeah, compiling rather than creating from scratch was the idea.

Individual character forums aren't likely to have 1x26's that all agree with each other though, so there would be some averaging or debating involved. To be expected.

I remember T3h Icy awhile back went and made a matchup chart where the matchups wouldn't necessarily add up to 100:100 because it was done with each row for a character's matchup taken from their board's without regard to what the other board's said about their character. So you might see on Fox's row like Fox vs Peach at 60:40 and on Peach's you'd see it at 35:65 adding up to 95:105. you I think that would be a good baseline to start until it could be debated to determine each character's matchup to get a better concensus that added up to 100.

 

[Bones0]

Having it equal to 200 total seems pretty confusing. You could just average the ratios between the boards.
(Fox-Peach)
Fox boards say: 60-40 in Fox's favor
Peach boards: 65-35 in Fox's favor
=
62.5-37.5 in Fox's favor

 

[Strong Badam]

but thats gross

 

[Bones0]

Then round up. It's not going to mean much since it will just be a bias war. I'm content with waiting for the SSBPD to get fully updated and operational. Then we can see the actual statistics of how matchups breakdown. Of course everyone will rationalize the statistics away with out-dated or inapplicable Theory Bros., but that's SmashBoards for ya.

 

[ShroudedOne]

*sigh* Bones.

 

[KingofCereal]

There's only one way. Get 100 players of each character and make them square off against each other. The resulting statistics will be your matchup chart. Boom debate ended forever.

 

[Stevo]

make them play each matchup 1 million times while you are at it.

 

[KingofCereal]

Just a million? Multiply by 100 players and that would be one hundred million matches. Should give us an accurate matchup chart.

 

[Xyzz]

Then round up. It's not going to mean much since it will just be a bias war. I'm content with waiting for the SSBPD to get fully updated and operational. Then we can see the actual statistics of how matchups breakdown. Of course everyone will rationalize the statistics away with out-dated or inapplicable Theory Bros., but that's SmashBoards for ya.

What about "the matchup chart should reflect the metagame at the highest level of play and not the average"? :D
I mean most people would agree that the Peach - Marth matchup becomes more and more even the higher the level of play gets.

I agree that spbpd should deliver some very interesting stuff, though (:

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

^You could just ask for the ratio for ELOs above 1400 or something.

The database is going to shed a lot of light on things, and end much speculation.

 

[Kal]

I doubt it. Issues arises from too small a number of top level players of certain characters. The database won't change this.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

No I'd say that it would answer a lot of significant questions. Any "tournament results" based argument would have statistical backing, rather than estimations based on perception. You may have an issue with making an argument using results as a factor, for the reason you stated, but that doesn't remove the fact that a database will be indispensable for those that do want to go down that path.

Also, I think you underrate just how much data is out there with a community that is over a decade old. Much of it is irrelevant because of advances in the metagame, but we have dozens of tournaments around the world every weekend. Thats enough for a relevant sample size.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't see the problem with a non-agreeing chart. Its hard enough to balance the relativity of one character's match-ups. If samus players think samus vs sheik is 40:60 while sheik players think its 65:35, to average it would be to skew the data. You'd be better off collecting all the data and then trying to shift entire characters off a balancing point (the most even match-up would be best).

 

[Kal]

Yeah, I agree that, for anyone who wants to use tournament results for an argument, the SSBPD will be useful. I'm referring more to the general strife we see when people try to place Peach or Jigglypuff higher on the tier list because of Armada or Hungrybox, respectively. That we have a statistical backing won't change the nay sayers who claim it is just the player being more skilled than his opponent contrary to his character's "actual" status.

 

[Warhawk]

Having it equal to 200 total seems pretty confusing. You could just average the ratios between the boards.
(Fox-Peach)
Fox boards say: 60-40 in Fox's favor
Peach boards: 65-35 in Fox's favor
=
62.5-37.5 in Fox's favor

I wasn't saying it should equal to 200... I was saying under a normal matchup chart when you add the two sides (which has nothing to do with the matchup chart itself really, I was just trying to find a way to explain how it worked) of the matchup you always get 100:100 but under T3h Icy's chart which was used to show matchup opinions based on each character board (which I think would be a good baseline before its evened out with debate) it could add up to things other than 100:100. Like usually Peach vs Fox is considered 35:65 and when Fox vs Peach is considered 65:35 and when you add both of those up you get 100:100. On T3h Icy's chart, however if say the Peach's considered Fox a 35:65 matchup for them and the Fox's considered it a 60:40 matchup both ratios would appear on the chart resulting in a chart where the matchup numbers didn't always add to 100:100, in this case it would be 95:105... Does that make sense how I explained it there? The 100:100 matchup add up has nothing to do with the making of the chart, just a rule that most matchup charts follow that this one does not.

 

[Armada]

Xyzz: That way of thinking means that you accept the fact that some players have a gap when it comes to skill level and general MU knowledge. I think that can effect the MU numbers a lot and not truley be correct.

I think smashers in generall should talk and try to learn MUs instead of focus on those numbers. Cause the numbers changes everytime someone improve a lot and if Javi beat PP again (for example) I would not be surprised if people change their opinion becasue of the way it's played on "highest level".

Im not saying no one should accept the fact that results change and stay open for changes in the tierlist BUT I think it is way more important to understand WHY/IF something have changed in the MU or if player A just is a better player and/or know the MU better. Cause everytime someone raise or fall on the list people seems kinda stuck with the argument about results wituout learning anything from the experience.

 

[Divinokage]

Well some people's luxury is only watching videos, some people simply judge what they see because they don't think they can do it themselves or want to sound important. Anyways.. ya I agree feeling what it's like fighting top players is completely different than just talking about what you see because what you see in general usually misses a lot of points in the match-up.

 

[unknown522]

Indeed

 

[Xyzz]

Xyzz: That way of thinking means that you accept the fact that some players have a gap when it comes to skill level and general MU knowledge. I think that can effect the MU numbers a lot and not truley be correct.

Uh, yeah. For the moment, all evidence supports the fact that you are much better than I am
I however wholeheartedly agree, that one should definitely just attempt to learn matchups, however difficult they are on paper, since there probably is nothing in this game that can't be overcome (say Hax being amazing vs Sheik / Axe doing very well against Spacies).

Matchup numbers are fun to discuss about though, if there isn't something better to do (:

@Kage: I just think I can't do it yet :D (and yeah, I definitely miss a lot of things going on in matches; at least, my understanding of "what happens why" got progressively better with me getting better at the game, and there's a lot of room for improvement left )

 

[Strong Badam]

yea armada
Xyzz is callin u out for using Young Link

 

[Xyzz]

Uh, wat? I don't even

(I do think he should just defeat hungrybox with his fox and save us all an hour of our lives every time they meet :D)



edit: ah, right. Now I get it, sorry strongbad, appears I still need to wake up a bit more. Luckily, I get to walk ~10 to 15 minutes at the fresh air before I arrive at work
Uh, well, what I believe one should do, is in no way relevant to what people do. If Armada feels going YL is the best course of action in order to win, he should do so.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You mean, he should just lose to Hungrybox with his Fox, because Hbox dismantles every Fox out there these days.

Personally, I want to see the Peach.

But then Hbox dismantles those, too. Ah well. Guess it's Ylink, then.

 

[Strong Badam]

time to pick yoshi

 

[KrIsP!]

@match-up discussion. Yes they change a lot and yes they can' tbe agreed upon fully but making one would be simple and should just give a general diea on the match up. You can't ismply look at the number,s they don't take into account hwo your playing, how they're playing or what has changed between the characters but to know your losing 40:60 you owuld have ageneral diea that you should probably get s me info on the match up.

 

[JPOBS]

Shroomed will save us from the terror of jigglypuff

 

[Bones0]

I can NOT wait for Hbox vs. Armada to meet for a third time. :D

 

[Beat!]

he should just defeat hungrybox with his fox

???

Armada's Fox is really good and all, but come on.

 

[Stevo]

I CAN'T wait for Hbox vs. Armada to meet for a third time. :D

I read that with the emphasis on CAN'T as you typed it, and it didn't make much sense.

However, I figured it out. Waiting for Hbox and Armada to play is so mentally draining, that you simply CAN'T wait for it to happen again, or risk damage to your health.

I'm glad I got that cleared up.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, rereading that it definitely is weird. Edited. lol

It still sounds weird to me... I'm not sure if it's just said weirdly or if it's one of those "I've repeated the same word so many times it now sounds alien to me" weird.

 

[Beat!]

You know, you could just put emphasis on "wait" instead.

I mean, the pun kinda works anyway.

 

[KingofCereal]

I CAN not wait FOR hbox and armada 3

 

[Xyzz]

???

Armada's Fox is really good and all, but come on.

And there I was, believing that "should just" (like it's no big thing), and the smiley were indication enough that I wasn't too serious with that statement...

 

[Beat!]

Fair enough. I just never take anything for granted on smashboards.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff ***** the **** out of Peach

Puff has the advantage over Sheik

Puff doesn't get *******d by Falco

How is Puff worse than Falcon? >_>

 

[KingofCereal]

Puff is definitely better than Falcon. Are you referring to JPOBS post? Doesn't shroomed play doc? What's the doc/puff matchup like?

 

[Bing]

Uh, wat? I don't even

(I do think he should just defeat hungrybox with his fox and save us all an hour of our lives every time they meet :D)

Guess you missed Hbox vs Javi... Hbox vs. Mango... Hbox vs. 80% of the Bracket.

 

[john!]

Guess you missed Hbox vs Javi... Hbox vs. Mango... Hbox vs. 80% of the Bracket.

xyzz was being facetious with that statement (although apparently he made it hard to tell)

 

[Bing]

I hope so... very well trolled?

 

[unknown522]

Puff is definitely better than Falcon. Are you referring to JPOBS post? Doesn't shroomed play doc? What's the doc/puff matchup like?

at least 6-4 in jiggs' favor. If not worse.

b-air just kinda beats him as a chracter. It's so gay.

Doc can rack damage quick if he can land a grab or a good pill, but jiggs is barely on the ground + b-air/f-air just beat the pill with no risk attached.

Also, his pills beat her ledge stall. But she doesn't need to stall the ledge anyway.