Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk there Mango, M2K and Javi. The other 2 spots are way up for grabs.

edit- lol worked all day, a full page late

 

[Krynxe]

Stop turning this thread into this thread.

 

[KrIsP!]

Why not? ^That's a featured thread, it's Grade A don't ya know.

 

[Mahie]

Wrong @ the top....
If they do super high lasers (so that your shield will just barely hit it, outside of powershield range) no, you cannot powershield it. However, this range is EXTREMELY hard to hit consistently and you can simply dash /crouch under it.

Secondly, if he does it high but still hit dash, its super easy to powershield it if you dash away/stand/crouch. Just look at marths first shield frames (his shield+roys are different from the entire cast), its super easy to powershield.

Low enough lasers so that you cant powershield with marth is not only hard to do consistently, leaves you vulnerable for a looooooong time since it has to be delayed (makes it terrible terrible to approach with) and lasers in the neutral state are really risky since you can counter/jump over them and if they hit, Marth can just throw out a ftilt/utilt/etc preventing him from following up at all.

Also, using the fact that lasers turn around and have low stun is REALLY good. Dash away->take laser-> ftilt /grab/utilt/fsmash/dsmash etc. If they do high lasers, jump away->take laser ->fair before landing/waveland/ff into whatever, dj, side b.

Most character can not use it as well since Falco gets a free laser->ftilt combo but Marth/Sheik and a few others can just outrange the ftilt/shield grab it/cc punish for sooo hard punishment




Damn, I should not give away all my technology lol.

Whatever, hopefully this helps someone and is just not flamed at

You can indeed dash under that height of laser, which I think I mentioned in my previous post.

It's not that hard to hit, though, my Falco friend practiced it for a while and now he can do it pretty consistently.

Also, when I tried to powershield them, I felt like if I pressed up+shield, it'd tilt the shield up as it comes out, thus tilting the PS window, thus PSing it. Like you said, however, given the fact that those lasers are hard to do, it could have been just him messing up.
Can anyone confirm that you can angle your powershields?

And yeah, I know you can just duck under a laser and powershield it. Faab didn't want to play my marth after a while because of the powershields.

Low lasers do imply to be airborne for a while before actually shooting them, and they should in fact just be used to like camp from afar, or force Marth to jump from a comfortable distance, when you're too close you shouldn't be lasering at all anyway, should you?

And I'll take notes of the getting hit on purpose part. I've never really thought of that actually, I'll try to think of set-ups involving that. Sounds pretty hard to space yourself so that Falco still wants to go in, whilst being able to take the laser and then retaliate. I don't think I've ever noticed Marths or Sheiks doing that, if you have video examples, I'd very much like to see.

 

[Bones0]

Your shield doesn't come up angled. Strong Bad confirmed.

Also, most Falco players like pouncing the second they hit confirm any laser, so you don't even have to worry about spacing too much. As soon as they see you facing the opposite way and get hit by the laser they'll assume you will hold shield.

 

[Mahie]

Yeah then my bad, probably just him messing up the height and aiming in the regular PS range.

I agree with the falco liking to hit confirm lasers yeah. I'll just mess with some whenever I can and figure out how far I can take it.

 

[KrIsP!]

Back into the Ness conversation. I like NEss. Combos are just an inch away from being properly strung together, meaning if your not crazy good your missing by a good follow up by an inch and giving them a chance to nair and combo you. As for edge guard game, I can't do it with him. If he had a proper UpB then maybe but as it stands I feel like if I go off edge they'll turn my chance for a kill into their own and the same goes for anti-edge guard. Teh recovery is ********, especially if you used your second jump before getting hit. I feel like he has a chance at being better than Link if the developers did some fine tuning with him, as it stands though, he's pretty ********.

I wish he had Fox's UpB and Marth's grab. Then I'd ****ing love him. Although, even with that he wouldn't be able to combo the top tiers and just get punished.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So i am bored waiting atm so with that in mind how good would yoshi be if he was pal weight, didnt get cg by sheik, his up b made him go up like in brawl, and lasers and shine and stuff didnt knock him out of his double jump till respectful %

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Still not as good as fox with falco's gun or falco with fox's run speed and recovery

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

R we talking about fox with falco's gun but still fox's shooting speed? Not like it matters b/c fox would still be insane with just falco's gun.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Yes, he still keeps Fox's shooting speed. We're also giving him Falco's Dsmash and Dair. Also, flicking the control stick up while using the shine will cause it to act like Falco's shine. If you flick it down, it switches back to being Fox's shine. This means you can switch between them at will.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

While we r at it how about we give him peach's float?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

No, that would make him broken.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Good point idk what i was thinking

 

[Strong Badam]

zelda's downb would still be better

 

[Xyzz]

how good would yoshi be if he was pal weight, didnt get cg by sheik

PAL yoshi is still pretty meh. Some of the other changes sound pretty decent though. I don't know about his up b in Brawl (played it for less then 3 hours. "hey, wanna see why we play Melee and not the successor in the series?" "uh, sure [...] Let's play Melee again". And I participated in brawl draft crews last SF, since they asked me to... figuring out where the **** your character is going to hit, while playing is fun :D)

Yoshis doublejump is pretty wierd... if there wasn't a way to hit him out of it, his recovery would be way too good, since he wouldn't be gimpable at all. But as it stands ... yeah, uh. Falcon is pretty fun to watch vs Yoshi, knees him right out of his dj at like 50% :D

His main problem is his atrocious shield game, though: 18 frames grab. Unable to jump out of it. Rolls which cover very little ground.


Pal tier list in my opinion:

S: Fox, falco, jiggs (even with the fox nerfs, spacies still rule supreme in my opinion. And uh, yeah, falco... lol. Second half of down air sends opponent upwards? Hardly noticeable.
A: Sheik, Peach, Marth, Falcon, ICs (with the better fox and sheik matchups for peach and the removal of marths dair spike, I feel she is better than him. I think with wobbling on (which it should be imo), ICs are just as viable as everybody else in A tier.)
B: Ganon, Samus, Doc, Pika
C: Yoshi, Luigi, DK, Mario, YL
D: a lot, in any order that I don't really care about, since I don't think they have any business appearing in a serious tournament (although there are of course amazing low tier mains)
E: Bowser, ness, Pichu. They are even worse then all those other guys.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

The thing is i know he is still meh in pal thats why i added the other changes. His upb in brawl gives him some height. Also i didnt say unable to be hit out of double jump, i just said that things that break it at 0 wouldnt.

 

[Strong Badam]

i'm pretty sure falco lasers don't ever break yoshi's double jump. not 100% tho.

 

[unknown522]

No they don't

 

[rhan]

I don't think Yoshi should be on the same level as YL, DK, Mario or Luigi.. mainly because.. Yoshi isn't that great.. and to be good with Yoshi you have to miles better than who you're playing against anyway.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i'm pretty sure falco lasers don't ever break yoshi's double jump. not 100% tho.

Ah my bad.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yoshi isn't that as bad, as many proclaim,

Leffen, myself, Angel, etc.. can make multiple cases..

He's fun

 

[KingofCereal]

At every tournament I've been to, which granted is like 3, there has been a Yoshi main that surprises everyone. They'll pick off the scrubbier players easily (like me) and pull pretty close sets against some of the better players but inevitably lose pretty bad. I'm sure there are the select few that can really take him to the top, but I think he hits a wall (not literally) and can't really compete after a few rounds.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think Yoshi should be on the same level as YL, DK, Mario or Luigi.. mainly because.. Yoshi isn't that great.. and to be good with Yoshi you have to miles better than who you're playing against anyway.

I don't really see the point of the last sentence, because the same is true for YL, DK , Mario, and Luigi as well. You always have to outplay your opponent to win with a worse character/in a disadvantageous match-up; this isn't specific to Yoshi. The main thing is that Yoshi doesn't compete on the same level as the others until a very high level of play, and until recently we haven't had players using Yoshi at that level. And for whatever reason they switched to Roy or Fox so it's like "Well, great. Now we won't know"

 

[Bones0]

And for whatever reason they switched to Roy or Fox so it's like "Well, great. Now we won't know"

You killed Yoshi! YOU *******S!!!

 

[leffen]

I played Yoshi a bit yesterday after a looooooooong break(and won the tournament with him)

iirc (I had been up for 30+ hours at the time) I almost jv4 stocked Randomness with him in WF
I then switched to marth because he CP'd FD and I didnt want to get camped etc... so I just went marth



I just "switched" to Fox, I just realized that I needed to focus some on fox for a month or two(since I switched from Falco recently too)
I'll certainly be playing him some more and I'll continue to prove that you can win tournaments with him(and any character really) as long as you are good enough to use the full potential

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Didnt vman switch to roy just b/c he likes the challange of bad chararcters, not b/c he finds roy to be better then yoshi

 

[Strong Badam]

I never said it was because he thought Roy was better. He switched his main from Yoshi is the point.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well in that case i will bring up the point that recently vman has said he is working on his yoshi again, so he is picking him back up it seems.

Also just reread your post and i realized i misread it and my last post was indeed off point

 

[choknater]

i practiced using roy's counter this weekend and learned the timing. i had my friends spam din's fire against me and lots of other projectiles

i feel like if roy can make hard reads and get good counters, he can evolve as a character. that move is really good. all you have to do is focus on a mindset of hard reads. i played defensively so i could easily tell when, for example, sheik would jump and try to fair me. it was so obvious to react to and i countered it, and she died. it felt really good, and i want to try using that move more.

tbh i could only get 2 or 3 good counters each game, and this was against a very bad player, but it was a great exercise in helping me observe and sniff out obvious approaches.

marth's counter can kinda be thrown out while you're under pressure. however, for roy's counter it really has to be a hard read.

ROY 2012

 

[KrIsP!]

Roy can be useful in certain match ups. But even with a lot of practice he doesn't measure up to Marth in the slightest. His still god compared to the rest of the lower tiers.

Is there a recently updated match up chart? By recent I mean not 2010 or earlier.

Edit: I just looked at one that must have been from like...2006? Link has an average match up of 60 while Jiggs is 55...and when I say 55 I mean she goes 40:60 against all mid-high tiers and raises up her avg from low tier.

 

[choknater]

i also think roy will evolve when people stop comparing him to marth



lemme just put this out there: roy's counter is so much better than marth's counter.

people get hit by marth's counter because he can throw it out there and they run into it. it is a good keepaway move and good at disrupts people's rhythm. roy's counter requires a much more precise hard read, but if you counter the right move it is a KILL move!

it is so exciting to connect with this move. and unlike, say, falcon punch, there are plenty of opportunities to connect with it. just takes some dedication and really really good observation and awareness

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

^the most recent MU chart was made in 2010

 

[KingofCereal]

Time for a new one. A lot has changed in two years.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yall ain't ready for my Roy...



Hype..







































I hope >,<;;




















Nah i got this! =D





As for the Yoshi/Roy debacle...

I'm playing both.. atm in time, I feel I have MORE to prove as a Roy player, as i'm trying to show/prove/unlock his potential... , so yes, I'm putting MUCH more focus into Roy. Leffen is an AMAZING Yoshi player, I'm positive he can further make Yoshi more awesome than he already is...Angel as well, is doing some business with Yoshi. They don't need me to further help the amazing things THEY are already doing... ya know?

Of course I will still be doing my best, to keep my Yoshi in tip-top shape, and of course COMPETE with them, on having an amazing Yoshi, I will always try and be my best, not only to motivate them, but also motivate me.. ^^, and yes I'm playing Yoshi more than I previously was... I'm just playing Roy ALOOTT more is all..

Spoiler

and will be jumping to game and watch soon after

(if I can prove a good Roy) which I'm sure I can, because I believe in myself, and my abilities.

Someone said, something about me enjoying the challenges of playing a low tier, this is indeed VERY true for me.. (although it can be devastating losing multiple times, consistently, however it's the ONLY way i'll get better anyway, so it's a wonderful experience, and why I've been able to push my characters to their limits, so it's well worth it.
As they say, one must fail, before one must succeed, I guess it just works for me.. idk.. >.> I prolly sound cheesy.. >.>

uhh yeah melee! <3

 

[twizzlerj]

Vectorman that was great as for me i have become so discouraged about losing and have joined the sea of fake falcos if i end up doing well with him thats cool i like the game a lot but im just tired of going fox losing then swapping to falco and doing better instantly lol as for not using the best characters i always have fun using doc so eventually i might practice the hell out of him.

 

[KingofCereal]

Despite the continued debates I am really comfortable with this tier list. Unless there are massive changes in metagame I don't see many changes that are even possible. The only thing I would change would be to move Ness from bottom tier. Keep him in the same position just put him in F instead of G. I feel like he can compete with the likes of Yoshi and GaW more than the bottom three can.

 

[Strong Badam]

we were working on a MU chart but hten got lazy =(

 

[Cactuar]

Individual character forums (active ones anyway) should probably have a 1x25 matchup chart.

26x26 MU charts are a waste of time.

 

[Kal]

In general, a 26x26 matchup chart is inaccurate (because too many people speculate on matchups they know nothing about), but I think a collection of 1x26 matchup charts taken from each board to create an accurate 26x26 chart is a good use of time. In particular, it gives a very easy, objective way to create a tier list.