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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
He probably trained his reflexes and eyes in the art of cg'ing Sheik. And DI.
KK wins because it's a 65:35 mu
LOL
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Ganon's hardest matchups
0. Top Level Fox
1. Sheik
2. Fox
3. Falco
4. Jiggs
7. MarthPeachFalcon
0. Top Level Fox
1. Sheik
2. Fox
3. Falco
4. Jiggs
7. MarthPeachFalcon
Xyzz
Smash Champion
that is such a good idea that I haven't thought about at all. I think I love you, Leffen *no homo* (:
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
That doesn't sound too different from the crowd of 50 or so screaming, "YOU SUCK" or "GET 'EM BOBBY" when I played Scar at ROM2 so I think I'll be okay.
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
i thought this post was cute because it has the whole "0" thing and it wasnt edited or anything.
also i thought ganons hated falcons. oh well.
and lol @ kirbykaze, i dont care how flashy people think falcons combos look, they are basic and he is a flawed character, to me rooting for falcon is like rooting for one of the big buff idiots bruce lee is fighting, whos always throwing his weight around and over committing.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Yea, when I play Ganon I think Falcon's around as hard as Falco sometimes. My roommate is a Ganon main and I think he struggles more against Falcon than Falco. How are Falcon's combos basic though?
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
i just feel like the fact that he *can* easily techchase off throws and kill with the same 2-3 hits combos chars like say sheik can,but at 50% lower, makes him kinda like...meh.
but i know he isnt a great character, because his recover sucks ad he is imbalanced and a flawed character.
just wanted to say i understand that already so i dont hear falcon main johns.
EDIT: falcon imo is just one of those chars people should use once its like 4am and they are tired of using chars that take more effort to use
seriously i hear falcons john on swf more than any other char even mid tier mains, stop johning or stop using the guy
but i know he isnt a great character, because his recover sucks ad he is imbalanced and a flawed character.
just wanted to say i understand that already so i dont hear falcon main johns.
EDIT: falcon imo is just one of those chars people should use once its like 4am and they are tired of using chars that take more effort to use
seriously i hear falcons john on swf more than any other char even mid tier mains, stop johning or stop using the guy
unknown522
Some guy
I was the only one in the crowd cheering for you.
Scar kinda got *****. Can't even lie
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I'm curious, specifically which characters take more effort to use than falcon?
I don't think any character in the game is fundamentally difficult to use. All the good characters can get by abusing a few basic strategies. That's what makes them good in the first place. Saying "falcon isnt hard to use" sounds really dumb to me, becase neither are falco/fox/marth/sheik/peach/ganon/doc/samus/puff
I don't think any character in the game is fundamentally difficult to use. All the good characters can get by abusing a few basic strategies. That's what makes them good in the first place. Saying "falcon isnt hard to use" sounds really dumb to me, becase neither are falco/fox/marth/sheik/peach/ganon/doc/samus/puff
Fortress | Sveet
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**** you, doc and samus are hard.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I don't see Marth, Peach, Falcon, Samus, Doc, or Ganon as having few basic strategies that can be abused at ALL (unless your playing bad people, I guess).
If they did, I think they'd be higher on the list.
Also, "hard to use" is highly subjective....
If they did, I think they'd be higher on the list.
Also, "hard to use" is highly subjective....
Fortress | Sveet
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They have lots of abusable strategies. I think you are misunderstanding.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Am I? Well, list some for me, then?
Fortress | Sveet
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Float cancel for peach and traps the go along with it.
Marth has corner traps and edge traps, not to mention edge guarding.
Falcon has his movement and punish game.
These are all abusable tactics.
Marth has corner traps and edge traps, not to mention edge guarding.
Falcon has his movement and punish game.
These are all abusable tactics.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
doc is about being good at the game LOL. pill traps, grab combos, jab followups... everything about him is average but usable. he's legit
winning with samus is about making the opponent think there is an opening when there really isn't. LOL.
ganon is about fear, and making people respect your limbs until they are pushed into a corner, then ganon can capitalize on the escape option.
these main reason these 3 characters have a hard time is because of lesser mobility, but they can win if they use good baits and traps in order to win the encounters.
winning with samus is about making the opponent think there is an opening when there really isn't. LOL.
ganon is about fear, and making people respect your limbs until they are pushed into a corner, then ganon can capitalize on the escape option.
these main reason these 3 characters have a hard time is because of lesser mobility, but they can win if they use good baits and traps in order to win the encounters.
Fortress | Sveet
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yeah, samus ganon and doc have more specific things.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Well if you're talking about playing average smashers. Properly DDWDing can be abused by almost the whole cast to land first hits, and then from there it's about follow ups. I know when I auto-pilot vs. worse players, I do stuff like:
Falco - spam lasers; SHFFL nair/dair-shine
Fox - DD grab into uthrow uair; nair plane; drill shine usmash/grab
Marth - DD grab; WD back fsmash/utilt; run up dtilt; wall of pain with fairs
Falcon - DD grab; nair plane; side-B knee; spam stomp reads until you get a stomp-knee
Mario - WD back fsmash; WD forward utilt; uair combos; spam CC dsmash; abuse ledge dash invinc
Jiggs - wall of pain bairs; utilt/uair/uthrow/jab reset/any other basic rest setup
Sheik - dthrow ftilt fair; spaced SH fairs
Samus - CC dsmash; WD back ftilt; up-B OoS
Peach - CC dsmash; nair OoS; dash canceled dsmash; FC aerial jab/dsmash; dsmash on platforms; dsmash
Ganon - fair jab/ftilt; side-B; dthrow into guaranteed ****
Notice how much overlap there is amongst characters. So many chars can abuse basic mechanics like CCing, DD grab, WD in and out for approaches and baits, covering shield grabs with jabs, etc.
Basically everyone has crazy ****, but that's how Melee, and (fighting) games in general, work. Falcon's crazy **** isn't significantly easier than anyone else's. The reason Falcon mains john/complain is because he has to endure a 30 second edge guard that is usually futile every time they mess up. Some characters die really fast when they **** up, and some characters can usually recover when they **** up. The reason none of this stuff results in a shallow game is because each little technique becomes a million times more deep when players know how to deal with it either by spacing, (S)DIing, teching, etc. That's why matchup knowledge is so crucial, and why a lot of the dumb **** you see on lower level players never comes into play at the top level (or only comes into play in the form of mixups rather than something you can always add without fear of counters).
Falco - spam lasers; SHFFL nair/dair-shine
Fox - DD grab into uthrow uair; nair plane; drill shine usmash/grab
Marth - DD grab; WD back fsmash/utilt; run up dtilt; wall of pain with fairs
Falcon - DD grab; nair plane; side-B knee; spam stomp reads until you get a stomp-knee
Mario - WD back fsmash; WD forward utilt; uair combos; spam CC dsmash; abuse ledge dash invinc
Jiggs - wall of pain bairs; utilt/uair/uthrow/jab reset/any other basic rest setup
Sheik - dthrow ftilt fair; spaced SH fairs
Samus - CC dsmash; WD back ftilt; up-B OoS
Peach - CC dsmash; nair OoS; dash canceled dsmash; FC aerial jab/dsmash; dsmash on platforms; dsmash
Ganon - fair jab/ftilt; side-B; dthrow into guaranteed ****
Notice how much overlap there is amongst characters. So many chars can abuse basic mechanics like CCing, DD grab, WD in and out for approaches and baits, covering shield grabs with jabs, etc.
Basically everyone has crazy ****, but that's how Melee, and (fighting) games in general, work. Falcon's crazy **** isn't significantly easier than anyone else's. The reason Falcon mains john/complain is because he has to endure a 30 second edge guard that is usually futile every time they mess up. Some characters die really fast when they **** up, and some characters can usually recover when they **** up. The reason none of this stuff results in a shallow game is because each little technique becomes a million times more deep when players know how to deal with it either by spacing, (S)DIing, teching, etc. That's why matchup knowledge is so crucial, and why a lot of the dumb **** you see on lower level players never comes into play at the top level (or only comes into play in the form of mixups rather than something you can always add without fear of counters).
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
man i just typed "m2k" in in youtube search and the first thing that popped up in the suggested search was "m2k vs ocean"
after all these years his legacy is currently this.
gonna cry, cya
lol jpobs. yeah i take it back, falcon is the pinnacle of difficulty in the known universe.
get out
after all these years his legacy is currently this.
gonna cry, cya
lol jpobs. yeah i take it back, falcon is the pinnacle of difficulty in the known universe.
get out
Fortress | Sveet
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When i type in "m2k" first vid is m2k vs shiz rom1 game 4
edit- oh in the google "is this what you meant to type" suggestion... gotcha
edit- oh in the google "is this what you meant to type" suggestion... gotcha
Bones0
Smash Legend
That's not what he said, AT ALL.
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- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
When I type "melee" into YouTube, the third match that shows up is M2K vs Shiz at Rom1, game 4. I think that's fitting.
Bones, that is a painfully clever location.
Bones, that is a painfully clever location.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I'd offer you a Vicodin, but I'm having trouble giving a crap about your pain, even if the source of it is my intellect.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Mmm.. I wonder how can you say Top Level Fox is hardest for Ganon, when there isn't a Ganon on par with a top level Fox? lol.
Right.. Nope, I developed new 2012 tactics, it'll definitely help me for sure for every match-up. KK only heard about doing reverse dash attack to continue combos, but I have more now. =)He probably trained his reflexes and eyes in the art of cg'ing Sheik. And DI.
KK wins because it's a 65:35 mu
LOL
Wake
Smash Master
I'm pretty curious about Kage's new stuff.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Fox has it easier approaching Ganon (run speed, nair, shine, etc) safely than sheik does imo, and at top level he won't be making as many mistakes (which are essentially mandatory for Ganon to have a chance at winning). Sheik is really bad too, i just think fox has slightly better options... sheiks are just easier.
How can you say sheik is the hardest when there is no Ganon on par with m2k?
As much as I hate the concept of theorizing about matchups, it's inevitable. If 100x more people played smash we'd have a lot more tourney results to base ideas off of, but that's not the case lol
JPOBS
Smash Hero
You're good at missing the point.
Fortress | Sveet
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What do you consider the skill difference between kels and yourself? I would consider both of you skilled enough to judge that match-up from. You are the most successful ganon and kels is a top 5 fox. In terms of experience and results I would give you the edge, however kels won when you played.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Unknown522, Silent Wolf, Lovage, Jman, Javi, Mango
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
WC should host tournaments around Lucky's availability
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I don't think he would be that much better or worse than me. But ya he won... though if I could edgeguard!!!! Then the result may of been different.. lol. But I mean it doesn't really prove that Fox is harder than Sheik. I lost to probably an equal amount of Foxes and Sheiks and Falcos.. so actually it's hard to say.
I mean all it really says is a top 5 Fox can beat Number 1 Ganon. QQ
JPOBS
Smash Hero
inb4 top 5 fox discussion
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
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jpobs is the best fox player i've never met
john!
Smash Hero
yes we already know what canada thinks of kels, thanks bro
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Canada? I thought he was really good.. lol.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Yeah but you're like Quebec and thats like its own country or something
I think the more interesting conversation
Is why you think you're the number 1 Ganon over the BIZ
I think the more interesting conversation
Is why you think you're the number 1 Ganon over the BIZ
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
leffen
Smash Champion
what has kels done that proves that he is a "top 5" fox? Yeah he defeated Kage, but so did a lot of foxes (OMG SHOYO TOP 5 FOX).
Top 2 foxes are easily Mango then Javi and then there are about a billion foxes that excel in different matchups. Unknown, Lovage and SW are probably the ones who would be picked the most as top 5 but there are TONS of other great foxes that could easily be top 5 now (I'd like to consider myself one of them ;D)
I MEAN MW SUCKS
Top 2 foxes are easily Mango then Javi and then there are about a billion foxes that excel in different matchups. Unknown, Lovage and SW are probably the ones who would be picked the most as top 5 but there are TONS of other great foxes that could easily be top 5 now (I'd like to consider myself one of them ;D)
I MEAN MW SUCKS
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Oh right. Javi. I forgot about him.