who cares dude, falco
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
I never thought of it that way.
Leffen: I agree that Im bias for a bit. Not cause Im trying but I think everyone is even if they try to not be. That means I think even Im bias for a bit.
But tbh I said back in 05 that I thought she was the best char even if I usually had a hard time dealing with Sheik as a Marth main.
But yeah I hates timeouts but If that is what I need to win I will do it even if I have boring as hell when Im doing it. But honestly if Low tier was bigger and I would have problem winning it I would use Y link cause he is my best char of the low tiers (Luigi maybe is kinda close against good chars but that dosen't matter). I play Kirby cause I think he is fun and don't feel like I wanna play a serious tournament char in a tournament that is not so serious.
Funny thing is that most people say their char is kinda bad (of the people that play good chars). But I was one of the few (I think) that said Peach had way more potencial and that was one of the reasons I started playing her again. Then When I prove it some people think I maybe Im bias at this specially thing (last sentence was not against you Leffen).
But tbh I said back in 05 that I thought she was the best char even if I usually had a hard time dealing with Sheik as a Marth main.
But yeah I hates timeouts but If that is what I need to win I will do it even if I have boring as hell when Im doing it. But honestly if Low tier was bigger and I would have problem winning it I would use Y link cause he is my best char of the low tiers (Luigi maybe is kinda close against good chars but that dosen't matter). I play Kirby cause I think he is fun and don't feel like I wanna play a serious tournament char in a tournament that is not so serious.
Funny thing is that most people say their char is kinda bad (of the people that play good chars). But I was one of the few (I think) that said Peach had way more potencial and that was one of the reasons I started playing her again. Then When I prove it some people think I maybe Im bias at this specially thing (last sentence was not against you Leffen).
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
eh, what do you know bout melee
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fox is awesome.
I still think Falco is better.
I still think Falco is better.
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Random thoughts in regards to Fox vs. Falco. Let's take a look at the top 10's matchups with them (not saying this means who is better).
Falco win the mu between them
Puff has a harder time with Fox
Sheik has a harder time with Falco (Iirc).
Marth has a harder time with Fox, but it's pretty close. After watching Ice (or was it Hack) play Zhu in crews, it's almost argueable that Marth wins the Matchup.
Peach, I don't actually know. Someone want to talk about whether or not Fox or Falco is harder for Peach?
Falcon I assume would have a harder time with Falco
IC's hate Fox but i'm not sure which is worse
Doc... Idk
Ganon loses to Fox worse.
SO THEY'RE PRETTY CLOSE, typed out a bunch of stuff for nothing plus my reasoning and opinion are ****.
Falco win the mu between them
Puff has a harder time with Fox
Sheik has a harder time with Falco (Iirc).
Marth has a harder time with Fox, but it's pretty close. After watching Ice (or was it Hack) play Zhu in crews, it's almost argueable that Marth wins the Matchup.
Peach, I don't actually know. Someone want to talk about whether or not Fox or Falco is harder for Peach?
Falcon I assume would have a harder time with Falco
IC's hate Fox but i'm not sure which is worse
Doc... Idk
Ganon loses to Fox worse.
SO THEY'RE PRETTY CLOSE, typed out a bunch of stuff for nothing plus my reasoning and opinion are ****.
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- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
Peach loses to Fox harder than she does Falco (Falco/Peach is even). But their MUs (Falco vs Fox) are really debatable.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
As far as matchup comparison, I don't think there is any question that Fox does better in the "relevant" matchups. Though Falco likely does better in the grand scheme of things. There are two commonly used types of tier lists in this regard:
1) You sum up every character's matchups and order them
2) You sum up every character's matchups weighed according to frequency of use for each character, and order them
I think both are useful, as the former provides a sort of "metagame independent" tier list, while the latter provides a practical assessment of which characters are most likely to win tournaments. With regards to the current discussion, Falco might be better in the first tier list, while Fox is better in the second.
1) You sum up every character's matchups and order them
2) You sum up every character's matchups weighed according to frequency of use for each character, and order them
I think both are useful, as the former provides a sort of "metagame independent" tier list, while the latter provides a practical assessment of which characters are most likely to win tournaments. With regards to the current discussion, Falco might be better in the first tier list, while Fox is better in the second.
Wake
Smash Master
Peach has a harder time with Fox. Also, I hear from a lot of Marth mains that Marth has a harder time with Falco. I've also heard that Falcons have a harder time with top level Foxes.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Fox is definitely better vs. Marth, Jiggs, and IC.
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Watch this match, Kal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwQRhJVHIk#t=28m3s
I'm not saying matchups can be decided on individual matches but look at his powersheild game. In the Falco Marth mu, Marth can combo Falco very well, and edgeguard him very well, due to his poor recovery. Falco's biggest advantages are his stage control with lasers, and his combos. If this technique Ice is using is further developed, and mastered, you could essentially make it so that Falco can't laser within a certain spacing, for fear of PS > WD > F-smash. I'm not even talking about a TAS match, just someone who can do it like 1/2 the time. Falco will still combo Marth just as hard, but this isn't enough to win the mu. Also, I think that stages benefit Marth more. He can ban DL and then be pretty solid on everything else. Lastly, i'm not really good or smart at this game, I don't even play either of these characters, I'm just debating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwQRhJVHIk#t=28m3s
I'm not saying matchups can be decided on individual matches but look at his powersheild game. In the Falco Marth mu, Marth can combo Falco very well, and edgeguard him very well, due to his poor recovery. Falco's biggest advantages are his stage control with lasers, and his combos. If this technique Ice is using is further developed, and mastered, you could essentially make it so that Falco can't laser within a certain spacing, for fear of PS > WD > F-smash. I'm not even talking about a TAS match, just someone who can do it like 1/2 the time. Falco will still combo Marth just as hard, but this isn't enough to win the mu. Also, I think that stages benefit Marth more. He can ban DL and then be pretty solid on everything else. Lastly, i'm not really good or smart at this game, I don't even play either of these characters, I'm just debating.
Fortress | Sveet
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They went stock for stock on marth's best stage in the match-up, and thats your evidence for saying that the match-up is in marth's favor?
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Wow... no that's not what i'm saying. I was using that match as an example to strengthen my points.
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UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...how did you miss this?
unknown522
Some guy
Fox vs falco IMO:
Falco beats fox.
Fox does better vs jiggs (I think marth is the only other char that beats jiggs)
They are both even with sheik
Falco does better vs marth
Falco does Better vs falcon (they both still beat falcon)
Fox is better vs ICs
Falco is better vs doc
They are both even with samus (maybe slight advantage to falco)
Falco is better vs Ganon (or maybe the same).
Falco is better vs the low tiers (except Zelda, m2, kirby, maybe pichu, and maybe yoshi)
Falco beats fox.
Fox does better vs jiggs (I think marth is the only other char that beats jiggs)
They are both even with sheik
Falco does better vs marth
Falco does Better vs falcon (they both still beat falcon)
Fox is better vs ICs
Falco is better vs doc
They are both even with samus (maybe slight advantage to falco)
Falco is better vs Ganon (or maybe the same).
Falco is better vs the low tiers (except Zelda, m2, kirby, maybe pichu, and maybe yoshi)
unknown522
Some guy
Lol oops
JonnyW
Smash Ace
Are you saying that Peach would have a hard time against low tier characters?
I think jiggs beats Marth at top levels of play.
unknown522
Some guy
Each to their own
Fortress | Sveet
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Unknown has a radical opinion bro. Deal with it.
I think Jiggs and Marth are even 
I am so happy that we are all able to just state our opinions and not have anyone come in here and try to tell us we're wrong because we are all right!
douches like kal and bones and whatever try to turn everything into an argument with their thought policing
i mean come on if a guy wants to think peach is better than marth let him lol if a guy wants to think marth is better than peach let him lol they're just thoughts are for people to say "no peach better than marth bc __ __ __" is basically just calling people ******** with inferior thoughts ):
and that's bad.
I am so happy that we are all able to just state our opinions and not have anyone come in here and try to tell us we're wrong because we are all right!
douches like kal and bones and whatever try to turn everything into an argument with their thought policing
i mean come on if a guy wants to think peach is better than marth let him lol if a guy wants to think marth is better than peach let him lol they're just thoughts are for people to say "no peach better than marth bc __ __ __" is basically just calling people ******** with inferior thoughts ):
and that's bad.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Hey varist.. btw can I have my watch now? lol xD
how ya doing man?
uhhh meleee!
how ya doing man?
uhhh meleee!
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
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I agree Varist.
Marth is still better than Peach, though.
Marth is still better than Peach, though.
Fortress | Sveet
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Varist lets not get crazy here.
Only the people in the MBR are allowed to have an [MBR sanctioned] opinion.
Only the people in the MBR are allowed to have an [MBR sanctioned] opinion.
give me your address and i'll mail it scaredy cat! >>
I'M DOIN SO WELL
@everyone who will listen
didn't we have that avatar size increase thing where it doesn't have to be 125 pixels?
i want to trade in this jack o lantern for somethin noo.
editTEEHEE I TRADED IT IN I DID IT OMG
JonnyW: No I meant that my Yl link is better than my Kirby. That means if low tier (the tournament) was bigger I would use Y link insted of Kirby. I play Kirby cause I feel low tier tournament is not so serious so why play Y link that I actually use for "real" tournament matches.
But for anwser your question I think Peach does kinda good against the most chars. The tricky one is Y link but except from that I think no one should be a problem at all (don't think I have forget anyone).
But for anwser your question I think Peach does kinda good against the most chars. The tricky one is Y link but except from that I think no one should be a problem at all (don't think I have forget anyone).
unknown522
Some guy
Armada, Didn't you used to say that fox/falcon vs peach are 7-3?
Or do you feel differently now?
Or do you feel differently now?
I meant against low tiers in the post above 
But yeah I think I said Fox/Peach being 7-3 in ntsc but I think I have never said that about Falcon. I still think those 2 or the hardest ones for Peach (Puff excluded). That's not the case now at least.
But I think Falcon is something like between 57.5-42,5 and 6-4 and Fox is a little bit worse.
But yeah I think I said Fox/Peach being 7-3 in ntsc but I think I have never said that about Falcon. I still think those 2 or the hardest ones for Peach (Puff excluded). That's not the case now at least.
But I think Falcon is something like between 57.5-42,5 and 6-4 and Fox is a little bit worse.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
57.5/42.5
I'm speechless.
I'm speechless.
unknown522
Some guy
Ahh alright. I was just wondering about your thoughts
Grim: Haha I know. It just feels like that MU is harder then Marth ( think it's 55-45 in Pal and Ntsc is pretty much the same on high level) but not as hard as Fox that can be something between 60-40 and 65-35.
Unknown: If you have more questions feel free to ask!
Unknown: If you have more questions feel free to ask!
unknown522
Some guy
For sure. I'll get back to you
Edit: How do you feel about peach vs marth/sheik in both NTSC and PAL? Do the changes in versions make any difference to you?
Edit: How do you feel about peach vs marth/sheik in both NTSC and PAL? Do the changes in versions make any difference to you?
Marth is pretty much the same. The dair is a spike but if Im playing decent I normally get spiked one time in ten matches or something. Ofc that dair can be important but I think Peach should not being spiked so often so the MU is pretty much the same.
NTSC Sheik is way worse I think. I think Peach goes from haveing the a small advantage to haveing a small disadvantage becasue of NTSC.
A really good thing with Peach against Sheik in Pal is that if you have a bad spot you can shield (mostly used on high damage) cause the only thing Sheik can do is grab and grab is not even good at higher %. And the fact that if you **** up the DI from f-tilt you die from Uair around 20-25% earlier (never tried but it should be something like that) is really bad.
One of the really good things with Peach is staying a live and her shield. Her shield is big and hard to poke. So against chars like Sheik (Pal) she can use it really good but in NTSC she is in a really bad spot.
NTSC Sheik is way worse I think. I think Peach goes from haveing the a small advantage to haveing a small disadvantage becasue of NTSC.
A really good thing with Peach against Sheik in Pal is that if you have a bad spot you can shield (mostly used on high damage) cause the only thing Sheik can do is grab and grab is not even good at higher %. And the fact that if you **** up the DI from f-tilt you die from Uair around 20-25% earlier (never tried but it should be something like that) is really bad.
One of the really good things with Peach is staying a live and her shield. Her shield is big and hard to poke. So against chars like Sheik (Pal) she can use it really good but in NTSC she is in a really bad spot.
unknown522
Some guy
Ahh. I understand.
You don't find marth difficult at all though?
Also, does marth being lighter in PAL change any combos for peach? (like make them easier/harder/different)
You don't find marth difficult at all though?
Also, does marth being lighter in PAL change any combos for peach? (like make them easier/harder/different)
Im not sure about the combo part. I remember at the first Genesis that I felt it was really hard to combo M2k. I wasn't sure what it was. It can be a little bit different (harder) but it can also be a combination of m2k being a bit better then most players to avoid Peach combos
Mahie
Smash Lord
Just want to come back to the Marth Falco debate.
Although it's really easy to powershield lasers that are inside your shield, Falco can aim at the very tip of the shield, making it impossible to PS unless you tilt your shield up while pressing the trigger. That's definitely not as easy to do and people should be aware of that.
Aiming really low makes it hard as well, by the way.
In the end it's just about whether you want to allow him to jump over your laser, or dash underneath. Nothing changes, really, except it's harder for Marth to react to the laser height than it is for Falco to control said height.
Also not using lasers much in the MU is a solid option. Marth's moves are all fairly short time-wise, dodging them and then punishing is as good an option as trying to cancel them out with lasers, imo.
Although it's really easy to powershield lasers that are inside your shield, Falco can aim at the very tip of the shield, making it impossible to PS unless you tilt your shield up while pressing the trigger. That's definitely not as easy to do and people should be aware of that.
Aiming really low makes it hard as well, by the way.
In the end it's just about whether you want to allow him to jump over your laser, or dash underneath. Nothing changes, really, except it's harder for Marth to react to the laser height than it is for Falco to control said height.
Also not using lasers much in the MU is a solid option. Marth's moves are all fairly short time-wise, dodging them and then punishing is as good an option as trying to cancel them out with lasers, imo.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
O_O
yeah im a fascist
I like unknown's post. I also think Falco does better against Ganondorf at high level play.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
No way Falco does worse at high level play.