The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Roy beats Jiggs though, and as long as they don't CC Roy's pretty good.
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
Since when does Roy beat Puff? (reverse blazer to KO is not enough)
Bing
Smash Master
Played friendlies Teams. We did double Puff, the one guy used Roy, He pretty much only used Reverse Blazer. Just space them and **** the landing recovery
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
That's doubles though.
ALSO, bowser will be bottom once people learn how to play against up-b oos and his arial grab.
ALSO, bowser will be bottom once people learn how to play against up-b oos and his arial grab.
Wake
Smash Master
Let's all just talk about how Ganon is complete trash and is overrated.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I agree, but I can't fight against him, lol. I think Samus, Doc, and Pika are better.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
No. Ganon is so amazing you can't begin to comprehend it.
Fortress | Sveet
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Doc is probably the best between them by enough that its not really questioned. Samus might be next, but I think pikachu is definitely the below the others.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Why do you people never discuss the middle-low tiers
Always a discussion about the top, or Doc/Samus/Ganon/sometimes Pika, or the worst character. Five thousand times. Skips from middle to bottom for some reason.
/luigi vs puff salt nobody here understands
Always a discussion about the top, or Doc/Samus/Ganon/sometimes Pika, or the worst character. Five thousand times. Skips from middle to bottom for some reason.
If this was the 64 boards people would think Roy has the advantage for this reason alone
/luigi vs puff salt nobody here understands
john!
Smash Hero
for the same reason that we only talk about the 8-10 viable stages, and then occasionally make an icicle mountain or flatzone joke
Fortress | Sveet
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fixed that for you
Wake
Smash Master
hahaha I love this.
Bing
Smash Master
...Flatzone? Oh dear christ I wouldnt even play. IC mountain is okay, its fun once and awhile...
Its all about the Pokefloats though....
Its all about the Pokefloats though....
choknater
Smash Obsessed
link/dk/luigi tier?
i don't care about that tier hahahhaha
actually
i just think all those characters are really underused.
i don't care about that tier hahahhaha
actually
i just think all those characters are really underused.
Wake
Smash Master
Whaaa? Flatzone is more fun than IC Mountain.
Bing
Smash Master
Nah, Ic mountain is pretty fun, mind you it would be the other way if I was using Peach and not Fox..
asianaussie
Smash Hero
posting here purely for you
luigi puff is such a boring matchup that nobody has bothered to test it properly
so we'll never ever know
choknater
Smash Obsessed
at a ucla tournament where ka-master and hugs had a very close grand finals, mango (while he still mained puff) forfeit to ka-master because he couldn't do it. he wanted hugs to do it instead.
that's the only history i have on the matchu[
that's the only history i have on the matchu[
Bing
Smash Master
A Samus vs Luigi GF? wtf lol.
With a Puff in 3rd. I feel bad for all 3 of those men....
With a Puff in 3rd. I feel bad for all 3 of those men....
Vudujin
Smash Lord
It's actually a box of cement. Yeah, pretty manly, huh?
Luigi/Puff seems a lil in Puff's favor, but Luigi can win that matchup. It's not too boring either since they both kill each other pretty fast. It's just the anticipation that takes awhile.
Fortress | Sveet
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Guys Guys Guys
They are talking about luigi vs puff in SSB64!!!!
They are talking about luigi vs puff in SSB64!!!!
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I'm surprised that no one else caught that.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i am now talking about luigi vs puff in melee.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
^In melee disc. Go figure.
Fortress | Sveet
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I was thinking about it more, and I am no longer convinced doc is better than ganon.
Ganon is slow, but not much slower than doc. Other than move speed, ganon's attacks are relatively quick. His moves are all the same speed as falcon's, though his aerials have more lag. Between his slower jump speed and the higher landing lag, he is slowest between SHFFLs, but he has one of the best ranges in the game to make up for it.
Ganon has the best throws in the game and is able to combo into a kill move on nearly every character. This is generally one of the reasons people rank doc so high, his chaingrabs and throw->fair. But ganon has more chaingrabs than any other character.
At the edge ganon is beast too. His edge-to-stage recovery is unmatched. He has more invincible frames after a ledgedash than almost any character, a strong wavedash and a huge roll. Between the two distance extremes of ledgedash roll and stand-up, it is impossible to cover everything he could do. Flip sides, he has one of the best edgeguards after the top tiers. Even tho this is 2012, most people still can't meteor cancel ganon's dair due to the awkward timing. He has an easy to do invincible ledge stall and a ton of options for preventing the opponent to get back to the stage.
On stage, ganon has some surprisingly tricky movement. His double jump tricks alone are worth making this section. Keep in mind that uair has a lot of range going forward at the early parts of the hitbox and can hit a standing fox on the way up. SH uair DJ fair. SH uair DJ platformdash. SH bair DJ dair (the ol' kage high/low). Ganon can jump out of fullhop dair and fairs the same way. Combine all his strong interrupts with his long waveland and high range, and you have a character that can manipulate space very efficiently.
His glaring weakness is his recovery. He can make good distance, but the linear nature of it makes it difficult. If ganon can grab edge with a jump, his isn't in too much danger, but beyond that he is in trouble. Kage has figured out a few tricks tho, such as delaying the downb. In order to go off stage and hit ganon after the downb, most characters have to be moving to where the downb would take ganon by anticipation not by reaction. Downb is a true spike, so it can have a similar affect as falco's side b in terms of reversing an edgeguard. Albeit much slower, the threat alone is valuable. While ganon's recovery is worse than many other usable character's recoveries, it still has its merits.
Match-up wise, doc and ganon both lose to all the top tiers, though doc may do better if it matters. Ganon does better against the high tier characters: Peach, Marth and Falcon having even matchups with all of them. Doc loses to marth and falcon, im not sure how he does vs peach (definitely not better than even). Going down the tier list, ganon does much better than doc, too. Ganon has more chaingrabs than sheik
tl;dr, I think ganon is better than doc in nearly every category. I think ganon's recovery is better, his zoning tools are stronger, his edgeguard is as good or better, his edge recovery is incomparably better, and his combos are as good or better. What doc has going for him are pills and cape as well as his body size.
Ganon is slow, but not much slower than doc. Other than move speed, ganon's attacks are relatively quick. His moves are all the same speed as falcon's, though his aerials have more lag. Between his slower jump speed and the higher landing lag, he is slowest between SHFFLs, but he has one of the best ranges in the game to make up for it.
Ganon has the best throws in the game and is able to combo into a kill move on nearly every character. This is generally one of the reasons people rank doc so high, his chaingrabs and throw->fair. But ganon has more chaingrabs than any other character.
At the edge ganon is beast too. His edge-to-stage recovery is unmatched. He has more invincible frames after a ledgedash than almost any character, a strong wavedash and a huge roll. Between the two distance extremes of ledgedash roll and stand-up, it is impossible to cover everything he could do. Flip sides, he has one of the best edgeguards after the top tiers. Even tho this is 2012, most people still can't meteor cancel ganon's dair due to the awkward timing. He has an easy to do invincible ledge stall and a ton of options for preventing the opponent to get back to the stage.
On stage, ganon has some surprisingly tricky movement. His double jump tricks alone are worth making this section. Keep in mind that uair has a lot of range going forward at the early parts of the hitbox and can hit a standing fox on the way up. SH uair DJ fair. SH uair DJ platformdash. SH bair DJ dair (the ol' kage high/low). Ganon can jump out of fullhop dair and fairs the same way. Combine all his strong interrupts with his long waveland and high range, and you have a character that can manipulate space very efficiently.
His glaring weakness is his recovery. He can make good distance, but the linear nature of it makes it difficult. If ganon can grab edge with a jump, his isn't in too much danger, but beyond that he is in trouble. Kage has figured out a few tricks tho, such as delaying the downb. In order to go off stage and hit ganon after the downb, most characters have to be moving to where the downb would take ganon by anticipation not by reaction. Downb is a true spike, so it can have a similar affect as falco's side b in terms of reversing an edgeguard. Albeit much slower, the threat alone is valuable. While ganon's recovery is worse than many other usable character's recoveries, it still has its merits.
Match-up wise, doc and ganon both lose to all the top tiers, though doc may do better if it matters. Ganon does better against the high tier characters: Peach, Marth and Falcon having even matchups with all of them. Doc loses to marth and falcon, im not sure how he does vs peach (definitely not better than even). Going down the tier list, ganon does much better than doc, too. Ganon has more chaingrabs than sheik
tl;dr, I think ganon is better than doc in nearly every category. I think ganon's recovery is better, his zoning tools are stronger, his edgeguard is as good or better, his edge recovery is incomparably better, and his combos are as good or better. What doc has going for him are pills and cape as well as his body size.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Uh...I don't know how many people would say that Ganon/Falcon is even. Peach beats Doc by just enough, imo. Other than that, those are solid points, I think.
DeadLastClown
Smash Apprentice
It seems that an average Ganon vs Falcon Falcon usually wins, but Top Level of both are closer to even.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I would definitely argue against Ganon vs Falcon being even and would say its probably in the neighborhood of 60-40 or 58-42 Falcon's favor (maybe slightly better than that). I also think its important to note that Doc does not get edgeguarded or comboed as hard as Ganon does by most of the cast and that Doc has better answers to projectiles I'm pretty sure than does Ganon.
Fortress | Sveet
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If nothing else, ganon does better against falcon than doc.
DeadLastClown
Smash Apprentice
I forget what the video was called but I saw a really good Ganon anticipating all of Falcons attacks and used his up air priority to prevent a lot of stomps and knees.
When it comes to both of their overall MU's vs the cast, Falcon obviously takes the cake (and knees it too).
Bing
Smash Master
From the sounds of what you're saying, that Falcon wasnt being too smart with his approaches, not to mention, Falcon can combo Ganon like a boss.I forget what the video was called but I saw a really good Ganon anticipating all of Falcons attacks and used his up air priority to prevent a lot of stomps and knees.
When it comes to both of their overall MU's vs the cast, Falcon obviously takes the cake (and knees it too).
DeadLastClown
Smash Apprentice
That Falcon player did land some pretty mean Combos, and it was close. I was just pointing out that it is sometimes even in that MU.
Fortress | Sveet
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Probably slightly in falcon's favor cause of movement speed, but ganon has the same attack speed and more range. Ganon can consistently stuff falcon's approaches and combo falcon really well in return. They both edgeguard each other pretty well, though maybe slight advantage to ganon there.
I mean, just look at how even these guys went in this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DENqgR_2Fns
I mean, just look at how even these guys went in this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DENqgR_2Fns
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
I'm loving that match right now, especially 0:52, back and forth.
Wake
Smash Master
Ganon does not do better against Peach than Doc does. Peach/Ganon is not even.
Fortress | Sveet
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What? I've been told in person by many top ganon players that peach is an even match-up, and i'm pretty sure the consensus on the boards is the same.
Wake
Smash Master
I actually just had this discussion on the Ganon boards a while ago. The Ganon boards didn't agree with me when I said that the MU was really bad for Ganon, but I think most seemed to agree that it was at least in Peach's favor.
Let's see http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215432&page=460 This is where that little discussion started.
Even? I disagree completely.
Let's see http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215432&page=460 This is where that little discussion started.
Even? I disagree completely.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
peach beats ganon really hard, like 60-40 because of turnips.
ganon's mobility is really bad, that's his main limitation. other than that he is a pretty legit character, he just has to pick and choose his moves really carefully to win each encounter. his moves are safe, but not jigglypuff safe because he can't move like her.
his matchups with the top tier (fox, falco, sheik, marth, peach) are REALLY BAD. against most other characters, he does well. pikachu and mario give him some problems too
his recovery is not that good either. he is a bigger target than falcon and his up-B is not as wonky. very easy to just aim at where is up-B is gonna go.
ganon's mobility is really bad, that's his main limitation. other than that he is a pretty legit character, he just has to pick and choose his moves really carefully to win each encounter. his moves are safe, but not jigglypuff safe because he can't move like her.
his matchups with the top tier (fox, falco, sheik, marth, peach) are REALLY BAD. against most other characters, he does well. pikachu and mario give him some problems too
his recovery is not that good either. he is a bigger target than falcon and his up-B is not as wonky. very easy to just aim at where is up-B is gonna go.
Wake
Smash Master
Yeah I think it's a terrible MU for him. I can see 60-40, maybe slightly worse.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I don't think Ganon vs Marth is all that bad for Ganon. Its in Marth's favor but not by that much. I think its his best matchup in the top 8 other than ICs.