Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Beat!]

I think Marth beats Jiggs.

I also think he does better against Fox and Falco (the two most important matchups in the game), and that they do pretty much equally well against Falcon (slight advantage for both).

And Sheik is definitely worse than Marth and Jiggs in PAL. NTSC is where it gets tricky.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs wouldn't be "less viable tier" if a really technical player used them with a fluid, continuous desync style.

That is something I'd like to see.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think people sorely overrate how bad fox vs puff is. Its not a 70-30 match-up, for sure. From games at the highest level, it appears to be relatively even. Since fox is such an easy character to convert hits into stocks on, it may be easier than sheik vs marth.

As for puff vs marth, its all even on the ground, but off stage puff destroys marth. Marth doesn't have any kill options on puff besides random tips and hoping puff jumps into utilt

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Most match-ups appear even at highest level because the players are so good.

Just look at Armada in any non-Puff match-up with Peach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Which is quite contrary to what a lot of people say about match-ups diverging at the highest level instead of my theory about all match-ups converging...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can't really just say that match-ups "diverge" or "converge", thats too much of a blanket statement.

A match-up like Fox vs. Pichu is going to get even worse for the Pichu at higher level because the Pichu player is relying on his opponent's mistakes for most of his damage, his options are too limited to compete with Fox in any other way.

Ice Climbers vs. Peach, on the other hand, only gets better for ICs as Peach's strong separation tactics via nair/dsmash/etc... Become harder to land due to more solid play from the ICs player.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You say that about pichu, but people thought the same think about pikachu vs fox until axe busted out. My hypothesis is that as players get better they learn the positive and negative scenarios; they learn how to avoid the negative ones and maximize the positive ones. Because players are actively avoiding their negatives while fishing for their positives, match-ups become a zero sum relationships (if nobody makes a mistake the result is a stalemate). On top of that, combos and damage output are being maximized so that in many match-ups a single hit can lead to death either directly or indirectly by exploiting positional advantage. Since both characters are equally capable of forcing a stalemate and have equal resource damage capability, the match-up converges to even. Match-ups that will not see this relationship are ones where there is some tactic with no counter (thus breaking zero sum) or where the hit-per-stock ratios are uneven.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Pichu is very different to Pikachu in terms of worth

I definitely hear what you're saying about everyone basically becoming a glass cannon at top level, I basically just think that those last two types of match-ups you listed (tactic with no counter and uneven hit-per-stock ratios) are more common than you think.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think there is not an example of the former in the game of melee, though the latter does have examples. For example, puff has the ability to take one of peach's stocks from a single hit (rest) while peach is forced to chip away at puff. In this regard, I fully understand why Armada doesn't play peach against hungrybox. If puff on average used 3 first-hits to kill peach, but peach required 6, peach would literally have to play twice as well in order to win.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So do you think that a match-up like say... Roy vs. Fox would converge to near-even at top level, despite Roy's inferior selection of options?

Not criticizing, just wondering.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In practice it could. I don't have enough roy knowledge to say for sure.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Ya'll ain't ready for my Roy..

I'll turn the heads.. woooooooooooot




Fox is hard.. >.>

 

[Bing]

Roy COULD come close to a Fox at top level if the Roy was incredibly smart and good with tech chasing.

That and got a few d-tilt forward smashes in... those always help...

It winnable but like Vman said... hard

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Roys so weird.

Hes simultaneously a lot worse and a lot better than people think.

 

[Bing]

Yeah Like I love and hate his weight factors. Like, I hate his recovery, makes his gimping game worse then the fact that his aerial are pretty bad too :S

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It winnable but like Vman said... hard

But like someone else posted recently (was it this thread or elsewhere?) hard is subjective.

 

[Divinokage]

Roys so weird.

Hes simultaneously a lot worse and a lot better than people think.

Hell no, he's terrible! Let me 4 stock the TOP Roys some more... Please?

 

[Bing]

Kage vs Sethlon/Ripple GOGOGOGO

 

[Wake]

Roy is so bad.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage vs Sethlon/Ripple GOGOGOGO

K time to 4 stock him again. =) It's so fun playing a 9-1 matchup.

 

[Warhawk]

When I think Roy vs Ganon I just imagine Ganon just crouching through like 90 percent of Roy's moves and wrecking him.

 

[Bing]

Honestly, thats probably how it is, I mean unless the roy can tech chase like a boss.

even then...

 

[Wake]

I know that's how it is with Peach.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Roy is probably 4th worst based on matchups (ICs, Peach, Ganon, Samus, Puff, Sheik...all very, very bad) but he has so many good traits (zoning, dashdance, chaingrabs) that hes often bumped up a few spots.

 

[choknater]

i think fox actually has the advantage against puff, or very close to even. i can't see puff having any advantage

 

[V3ctorMan]

K time to 4 stock him again. =) It's so fun playing a 9-1 matchup.

Next event that we both attend $20 MM

Roy/Ganon

Best of 5 or 7

Let's do it..

I will accept your challenge

AND WIN!!


/battlecry

 

[Bing]

I like the looks of that!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I believe in you vman!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Sorry Vman, but as a Ganon main, I have to pledge my allegiance to Kage. Good luck, though.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I like the looks of that!

Me too.. ^^

I believe in you vman!

Thanks I believe too, I always believe in myself, if I didn't I wouldn't play low tier so much.. >.>;
I will show the world!!

/continues battlecry

 

[odinNJ]

I believe in you vman. But yeah Roy sucks, not gonna lie

 

[Geenareeno]

Sorry Vman, but as a Ganon main, I have to pledge my allegiance to Kage. Good luck, though.

Sorry Vman, but as a realistic person, I have to pledge my allegiance to Kage.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Low tiers da bess!

Get em VMAN!!

 

[Wake]

Kage will beat Vman.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Roy is disgustingly awful at everything.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kage beat mango, but vman has dat potential. Just never look down on your character man. Always remember that a solution is there if you just look hard enough. Think outside the box ^^

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I imagine Vman's Roy is pretty good, and this'll be a lot closer than we think. I still think Kage's going to win, though. In my opinion, this match is going to help prove what Sveet was saying about Matchups converging at higher levels.

 

[Divinokage]

20$ Best of 7, it is then! Are you going to FC-Legacy, Vman?

But then what if my outside the box thinking is stronger than most people.. there's no escape vs that fate!

 

[V3ctorMan]

^Yeah freaking that series is returning!!

I wouldn't miss it.

I'm looking forward to this match... and I'm not here to brag etc.. but I do feel Roy has got some potential, and I believe I can give a good set ^^

I hope, no, I know I can give a good set ^^

I'm down if Kage is down

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Only potential I see with Roy is what Chok (iirc?) said about KO'ing via Counter.

Aside from that, his peak has pretty much been reached by you/Sethlon/NEO