Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Strong Badam]

flaco/fox
sheik
puff
marf
peach
falcon
ics

i think that with wobbling on ic's are better than falcon

 

[twizzlerj]

flaco/fox
sheik
puff
marf
peach
falcon
ics

flaco/fox
sheik
puff
marf/peach
falcon
i completely agree might swap puff and sheik but from what ive seen sheik is better and there isn't a counter pick other then outplaying sheik.

 

[Gea]

m2k's logic is that he uses fox so fox is worse than the others

I thought his belief was that for the time being no Fox player is consistent enough to make him number 1. Like at tip top metagame. You wouldn't think it though by the flood of Foxes in mid-bracket at nationals.

and there isn't a counter pick other then outplaying sheik.

Most people will tell you Falco.

 

[Geenareeno]

I thought Falco-Sheik was even or in Sheik's favour?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is fine vs spacies. ICs and Puff are the hard ones.

 

[stelzig]

Gea: I heard his reasoning before. It just isn't really new that m2k tries to argue that the characters he losses to are simply better than his.

If we need to talk about what top players think, then I believe both pp and mango have said that marth and sheik are top2.

 

[adechrist]

flaco/fox
sheik
puff
marf
peach
falcon
ics

i think that with wobbling on ic's are better than falcon

This is a great list. I like Falco and Fox being even. I really don't see there being a strong enough argument for why either one is better than the other. I also agree that ICs are only better than Falcon with wobbling. Still not sure where I think Peach should be, I lean towards her being equal to Marth, but I understand why people say Marth's better.

 

[Warhawk]

I thought his belief was that for the time being no Fox player is consistent enough to make him number 1. Like at tip top metagame. You wouldn't think it though by the flood of Foxes in mid-bracket at nationals.

From what I've heard him say his reasoning is that he struggles against Falco and Puff even though with all of his experience he's been able to figure out how to deal with the rest of the cast and find ways to take advantage of their flaws and beat them. Since after all his experience those two still seem to be the toughest to beat and give him the most trouble no matter how much he plays them he feels they must be above the rest of the cast and therefore are one and two. He also thinks Fox's lack of range in some areas and vulnerability to crouch cancelling hurt his chances to be number one.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

If you read this thread long enough you'd think Fox's only weakness as a character was that hes just too technical to be played consistently....

But if you learn to press the buttons fast enough hes invincible!

-_-

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox's most pressing weakness is that if you trip him and he falls over, he's really horrible at getting back up. Because you can keep tripping him.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I'm personally a bigger fan of throwing him. Tripping works too, but throwing really gets me going.

 

[Mew2King]

they state marth is the best because they DONT USE MARTH, they say sheik is top 2 or 3 or the best because they DONT USE SHEIK. I'm not really as biased as you guys like to say (not even CLOSE). Just before I mained Sheik, in the months before entirely maining her, i ARGUED THAT SHE WAS THE BEST CHARACTER, then set out to prove it and did this right afterwords in an attempt to prove my point + because I thought I could bring out her potential pretty well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QhGurghf1s

I say what I think based off of what I know, it's really that simple. I've said Falco was better than Fox starting back as early as 2005, because Falco's both beat me, and won majors. From locals as Zanguzen and Ninja, PC with Falco at NY all the time then MLG, and then in the future it would be proven to be even more true. I think puff is amazing both because of 1) mango 2) hbox 3) tourney results 4) her statistics: being able to 0-death people from 1 read, but taking many hits to kill her. Being unable to easily 0-death her while other characters (especially fast-fallers) GET 0-deathed. For reasons like this I think Fox is overrated, but Falco is much harder to hit than Fox (at least with the characters I main/use) due to lasers and bigger Dair/Bair hitboxes, and also is more dangerous cuz he has more guaranteed large combos upon hitting you (that you can't crouch cancel)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree with you logic m2k, however I think you should know that falco's dair/bair hitboxes are the exact same size as fox's

 

[Strong Badam]

yeap same offsets & sizes

 

[Mew2King]

it's not really the same though. When I'm playing with velocity's doc, and I try to edge guard with Fox ledge hop Bair, he can space around it, while Falco can always reach with a ledge hop Bair. His hitbox may be the same, but the Bair move itself is far more useful since it lunges out much further from his body cuz his legs are longer. Falco's Dair goes through Sheik's Uair far more often than Fox's does, I believe this might be because it is a constant hitbox instead of going on and off. Another thing is that when they trade, Fox's Uair only does 3 damage and you can still punish him by trading with a 2nd hit really easily, while Falco's hits you much harder for 9/12% and you can't chase after him as easily. Here's another thing, if you jump into Fox's Dair trying to trade with it, but he hits you, and you land, you can usually punish him before he can shine you, where as falco on the other hand, will start a combo. Consider all of that. It's all the little things that add up where Falco's just far more dangerous to challenge than Fox. Fox you can literally just be like "**** it" and attack him spaced, constantly trading with him and crouch cancelling his attacks and still win in the end.

 

[kailo34ce]

falcos legs are thinner and longer

and by legs i mean hurtboxes*

it provides weird results

 

[Strong Badam]

they have different dj heights jason.
and i'm willing to trust the game's files more than your anecdotal evidence lol

 

[kailo34ce]

screw it lol

er need to restate:actually a few of these moves are close but you can tell, most moves are like their dash attack, blatantly different

you can argue the difference is negligible,which it pretty much is, but it opens up opportunities for different things to happen depending on character.

plus, and i may be wrong about htis, doesnt falcos shine have more shield stun? i know he jumps slower but still, thats mean

 

[Warhawk]

they state marth is the best because they DONT USE MARTH, they say sheik is top 2 or 3 or the best because they DONT USE SHEIK.

Uhh are we still talking about PP and Mang0 thinking Marth and Sheik are 1 and 2 (though I could have sworn PP said he thinks its Fox then Falco at 1 and 2)? Because I'm pretty sure they both use Marth a decent enough amount and Mang0 has a Sheik I'm pretty sure...

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't have an opinion on tiers atm leave my opinion out of this lol.

 

[King5280]

kirby is by far the best character cause of swallowcides. duh.

 

[stelzig]

I just wanted to point out that top players don't exactly agree on the tiers either, that is all.

 

[Get Low]

I think Peach should be higher than Marth now.

 

[kailo34ce]

marth definitely isnt getting any better unfortunately

i feel like marth vs jiggs is so rigged
(i play neither of these chars)

 

[twizzlerj]

someone tried to convince me marth vs jiggs wasn't rigged but just come on marth can poke but gets punished pretty damn hard. trying to get better with marth but common sense is telling me falco.

 

[kailo34ce]

yeah falco you can pretty much walk into a matchup without any real character disadvantage.

friends dont let friends use marth vs jiggs


jiggs is holding back marth in general imo

not only because she beats him, but also because she is mean to icies and peach, with less of them around there is even less of a reason for people to use marth.

hes pretty much a 'soft/decent counterpick'

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Its cute to think that Jigglypuff is mean against Icies.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, lately, I've also realized that Puff beats Marth. For some reason, she makes his range fairly useless. It's not that bair outranges his moves, but that the angle at which bair hits him counterattacks his moves...I think.

I can see Puff being Marth's most difficult MU, honestly, because Sheik isn't that bad (imo, Marth just needs to be really homoconservative), Falcon is arguably anything (even), and Falco...well, Marth has more punishes on Falco then he does on Puff, honestly. If Puff weren't in existence, both Marth and Peach could be REALLY amazing (maybe Sheik, too).

Though Sheik is probably still his worst by enough of a margin.

It's early in the morning, so don't crucify me for this.

 

[Beat!]

Marth vs Puff is slightly in Marth's favour imo. And even if it's not, it's certainly not worse than Marth-Sheik (which isn't that bad either), and it's definitely not something that's holding Marth back from "being really amazing".

Marth has more punishes on Falco then he does on Puff, honestly.

Um, the same could be said for any character. Fox is another character that has "more" punishes on Falco than he does on Puff, but you don't think Fox does better against Falco than against Puff, do you?

 

[ShroudedOne]

It would be more accurate for me to have said that Marth's punishes on Puff aren't that great, and to not have brought Falco into it. Thank you for the catch. But I do see Puff as being a problem for him (if not now, then later on in the metagame).

 

[Blistering Speed]

Marth>Peach. Justification not required if you can see past the fact Armada is essentially Jesus with a GC controller.

Jiggs, as always, beats Marth. It's an entirely even spacing game thanks to Marth's sword and Jiggs' aerial mobility. The only difference is Puff's ENORMOUS PUNISHMENT GAME ADVANTAGE. Puff gets a hit, possibility of rest, hideously lame combo or simply Marth being sent off stage and utterly molested, either by being aerialed in the face off stage or rested in Up B lag. Marth gets a hit...spacing game reset.

 

[twizzlerj]

peach and marth are even tier wise i say they are tied but the match up itself is probably slightly in peaches favor just a little not much.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Armada is essentially Jesus with a GC controller.

Gonna sig this

 

[kailo34ce]

take away marths gimps, and combos, remember how bad he is at recovering and put him up against the offstage master of this game.

and you have the matchup.

anyone who thinks ducking grabs and resting isnt a huge way this matchups changes hasnt really played the matchup

and puff is mean to icies

 

[john!]

jigglypuff is in front of marth

marth ftilts

jigglypuff does ???

...

jigglypuff is above marth

marth utilts

jigglypuff does ???

 

[Warhawk]

and puff is mean to icies

I think if ICs play really campy its close to even. And you're gonna get choknater back on here to restart that argument again lol.

 

[kailo34ce]

jigglypuff is in front of marth

marth ftilts

jigglypuff does ???

...

jigglypuff is above marth

marth utilts

jigglypuff does ???

you spend the entire match holding the joystick towards marth and hitting A the moment you and close to him obviously.

I think if ICs play really campy its close to even. And you're gonna get choknater back on here to restart that argument again lol.

even if its "even" i still think icies have to work 10x harder in that matchup and also i think if jiggs can abuse game mechanics better so i would consider it (beyond any technical term) "mean"

 

[stelzig]

Can't quite see what should make puff good against IC's. I consider ICs to be one of puffs harder matchups =/

 

[King5280]

jigglypuff is in front of marth

marth ftilts

jigglypuff does ???

...

jigglypuff is above marth

marth utilts

jigglypuff does ???

baits those and then goes in.

and i think ics vs puff is close to even but if anything could be slightly ics favor.

 

[kailo34ce]

well im not any sort of expert on the matchup i just see icies having to really play around jigglypuff and work harder than they do vs alot of chars and jiggs doing the same thing jiggs always does.
(i realize that every character pretty much has to play jiggs game but it takes nothing away from my argument)

i really try not to use any sort of 'theory' when i see the matchups but idk.

especially like saying "if the icies camp" which is probably true but it leaves too much room for discussion.