King5280
Smash Journeyman
their desynch blizzard can be super annoying for puff
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
stelzig
Smash Lord
Even without considering wobbling (i'm used to play against wobbling 
), I still think ICs are pretty strong against puff. They deal very good damage with grabs (or without even, they're quite strong, lol), and I don't think they have *that* much trouble getting grabs. They're also one of those characters that have absolutely no problem killing puff early.
Chu did really good against mango at pound 4 (yeah, it's long ago) and I believe i've seen him do well again since. I believe fly also beat hbox? Or at least kept it very close as well. In general ICs have also just done well in the matchup from what i've seen.
Edit: I also think that puff is one of the worse characters at killing nana quickly simply because puff is slow.
And yeah, their blizzard stuff could probably trouble puff alot and they should be pretty good at getting in on puff with their wavedash as well.
), I still think ICs are pretty strong against puff. They deal very good damage with grabs (or without even, they're quite strong, lol), and I don't think they have *that* much trouble getting grabs. They're also one of those characters that have absolutely no problem killing puff early.Chu did really good against mango at pound 4 (yeah, it's long ago) and I believe i've seen him do well again since. I believe fly also beat hbox? Or at least kept it very close as well. In general ICs have also just done well in the matchup from what i've seen.
Edit: I also think that puff is one of the worse characters at killing nana quickly simply because puff is slow.
And yeah, their blizzard stuff could probably trouble puff alot and they should be pretty good at getting in on puff with their wavedash as well.
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
well im talking to wobbles (boom name drop) and he says he feels like icies ***** puffs until he fights hbox.
but he is too good to be an example anyway
but he is too good to be an example anyway
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the **** does "too good to be an example" mean
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
he beats every peach except armada.
hes too good
thats what the **** it means
hes too good
thats what the **** it means
King5280
Smash Journeyman
im no expert but imo opinion at worst its 60 40. jiggs has a little trouble splitting them up but once they are i dont think she has that hard of a time getting nana out of the situation.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i believe he can still beat armada's peach
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yeah because we shouldn't be looking at the best players with regard to how good a char is or anything
stelzig
Smash Lord
So wobbles pretty much agrees too?
On a sidenote, I guess that puff does have her wall of pain to take care of nana, but I still don't think she is particularely scary for ICs.
On a sidenote, I guess that puff does have her wall of pain to take care of nana, but I still don't think she is particularely scary for ICs.
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
from what i gathered is, jiggs can beat icies but none of them play well enough to do it.
so i guess it means icies > puff
so i guess it means icies > puff
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
too good to be a measuring stick obviously, you should probably just go back to quoting top players and agreeing with popular opinions
john!
Smash Hero
"too good to be an example" uses the same thought process as "lol the tier list should be based on forum theory and not top tournament results, because top players are too good and it's about player skill rather than character choice"
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
All I'm saying is if Jigglypuff is going to be considered a top tier, Peach should be too.
Stevo
Smash Champion
the answer to both of those is Bair after the attack misses
but seriously, you can't just break it down that simply.
King5280
Smash Journeyman
ehhh id say jiggs has a better mu spread. she does better in the heads up and vs cf, sheik, and about the same vs fox, marth, and maybe falco
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
matchup wise? an ice climber player who beats every peach in the united states and canada is too good to be a measuring stick for general matchups. he breaks the pre conception of matchup, like ken the sheik slayer, so do ice climbers have the advantage on peach?
basing the entire ideals of the game on a few players who have gone above and beyond is disrespectful to everyone.
quit throwing out generalizations pleasec and go figure out how to get around marths ftilt with jiggs
john!
Smash Hero
so maybe the peach matchup isn't an auto-lose for IC's like some people think it is?
and if wobbles was "too good" then he would be beating everyone else, because they are using characters that IC's have a better matchup against (relative to vs. peach)
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
using your logic, i was right about jiggs being mean" to icies.
because hbox beats wobbles.
k i guess i was right all along, i tried to justify myself being wrong by giving actual evidence, (also the peaches lost to falcons at apex minus armada and thats a bad peach matchup but obviously it isnt because armada won with peach), who is apparently the best character in the game because peach(armada) only "loses" to jiggs.
good to know i was right all along and that people dont blindly argue
oh wait
TIP: finding the sarcasm in this post will take using the "john!" logic
also i believe you said wobbles beats those peach players because icies has the advantage?
because hbox beats wobbles.
k i guess i was right all along, i tried to justify myself being wrong by giving actual evidence, (also the peaches lost to falcons at apex minus armada and thats a bad peach matchup but obviously it isnt because armada won with peach), who is apparently the best character in the game because peach(armada) only "loses" to jiggs.
good to know i was right all along and that people dont blindly argue
oh wait
TIP: finding the sarcasm in this post will take using the "john!" logic
also i believe you said wobbles beats those peach players because icies has the advantage?
john!
Smash Hero
what is this sad excuse for a post
i didn't say anything like that
try again mr. troll
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea, Falco's dair is about a billion times better than Fox's dair. PC stresses this point all the time, too.
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
how does this not translate to " wobbles beats those peach players because icies has the advantage? "
so yeah validating matchups by using examples of certain players beating others is pretty much what you said in response to my original declaration of "too good" and i further went to back up my declaration by stating kens overall "sheik slayer" status and armadas ability to beat falcons only to refine my argument from the opposing sides definition of this discussion.
i am pleased you have admitted defeat by simply dismissing my argument and calling me a "troll"
i mean come on my argument wasnt like marths ftilt, there are ways to get around it!
john!
Smash Hero
wobbles is good at the matchup. it's not IC's advantage at all.
that doesn't mean we can't "use him as a measuring stick" to see how other matchups play out at top level
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
choknater
Smash Obsessed
wobbles is really good at the matchup
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I definitely missed that he said that. He plays NEITHER, and feels like he can talk on the MU. This is indeed SWF.
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
let me fix what i said then:
Jiggs ***** marth and my opinion is correct!
seriously though all i said was thats how i "feel".
i stated how i dont use either character to show i am no expert on the matchup and my opinion shouldnt be taken as me saying some sort of fact.
i simply expressed how i felt. nowhere did i state this is what the matchup is end of story
thankyou for missing the point entirely. it may have been my mistake to word things the way i did but i do believe you are able to express random opinions on this forum in a non threatening non demeaning manor
and also thankyou for outright targeting me after all i did was say i felt a matchup was a certain way.
i hope ganging up on me over nothing makes you feel victorious and strong.
i will try not to have innocent opinions of melee in the future oh grand swf users
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Um........
Ok.
Ok.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
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Smash world! Smash world!
Forum time! Excellent!
Forum time! Excellent!
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I actually don't think puff is marth's most difficult matchup, or even a bad one. Back when my marth was in my prime, I beat all the puffs. I even 4 stocked Sliq in 88 seconds back in 2009 on battlefield. (it was recorded too, but he didn't want to put it online). I got a lot of really lucky F smash tippers though off of reads.
I'm not really sure the ratio, I just don't get practice at it, that's why I don't do it. If I had a lot of patience AND the practice vs a good puff (let alone ANY puff... cactuar if you're reading this, I need you to play puff vs me next time we play however many months away that would be) I would be using marth more. I don't play him because I mess up a lot now due to lack of practice + forgetting old things + lack of a good controller, but I don't feel like he's really limited, you just have to do A LOT of work to win at high level. Marth even has this neat thing vs Puff where you can mix up down throw and F throw at low % and throw them really fast so they miss the DI, and SH Nair them twice, and Fair -> another aerial, and 0-50 her really fast. I found it out years ago.
However, I am honestly not experienced enough in marth vs puff to make a valid opinion right now. For all I know marth ***** or for all I know puff *****, so don't take my word on this too big since I have yet to experiment on different situations. A big problem with the matchup is, after 50% or so, Puff can only get hit once instead of comboed, where as if Puff Bairs or Fairs marth at the edge, it turns into either an edge guard, or forces marth in a very bad situation. Furthermore, if Marth is forced to up B onto the stage, it's an automatic rest KO.
I'm not really sure the ratio, I just don't get practice at it, that's why I don't do it. If I had a lot of patience AND the practice vs a good puff (let alone ANY puff... cactuar if you're reading this, I need you to play puff vs me next time we play however many months away that would be) I would be using marth more. I don't play him because I mess up a lot now due to lack of practice + forgetting old things + lack of a good controller, but I don't feel like he's really limited, you just have to do A LOT of work to win at high level. Marth even has this neat thing vs Puff where you can mix up down throw and F throw at low % and throw them really fast so they miss the DI, and SH Nair them twice, and Fair -> another aerial, and 0-50 her really fast. I found it out years ago.
However, I am honestly not experienced enough in marth vs puff to make a valid opinion right now. For all I know marth ***** or for all I know puff *****, so don't take my word on this too big since I have yet to experiment on different situations. A big problem with the matchup is, after 50% or so, Puff can only get hit once instead of comboed, where as if Puff Bairs or Fairs marth at the edge, it turns into either an edge guard, or forces marth in a very bad situation. Furthermore, if Marth is forced to up B onto the stage, it's an automatic rest KO.
Gea
Smash Master
Let's be honest here, if we want to start weighing opinions, most people posting in this thread are 100% moot because their placings aren't high enough to matter since they do not represent the top of the metagame.
And the tier list isn't 100% results anyways so bringing that up stupid. If that's what you guys want, there is no discussion involved. Else just guide the discussion or ignore posts you deem "too stupid" instead of antagonizing members of the community in ye ole circlejerk.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
in response to john!, as Mango said back in 2009/2010, just run up to marth, shield, and Fair OOS after blocking his attack. Nobody does this anymore.
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@Gea: I never mentioned the tier list in that comment. But I do think that you should play a character to understand them, and their approach, before applying it to a matchup. I was out of line with the attack, but if you have no experience with playing a character, then...how can you be assured in your opinion?
In any case, I apologize, kailo34ce. I should remember where we are. :\
In any case, I apologize, kailo34ce. I should remember where we are. :\
Gea
Smash Master
Eh, it was less directed at you and more a general statement. Just about everyone here is more than happy to throw out their own tier list despite not "playing" all of the characters enough to be informed fully through firsthand experience. It helps a lot, but it isn't the end all.
Kal
Smash Champion
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- Dec 21, 2004
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- 2,973
Really, it's just silly that he's discarding evidence on account of the player being very good. There's nothing wrong with weighing it, which actually makes for a more accurate tier list. But to discard something because it doesn't fit into his preconceptions is absolute nonsense.
I mean, we don't even know what it means for something to be an outlier, because we're not exactly going out of our way to make rigorous statistical measurements. It just seems circular to start off with preconceptions, then to discard (rather than assess) anything that contradicts them.
I mean, we don't even know what it means for something to be an outlier, because we're not exactly going out of our way to make rigorous statistical measurements. It just seems circular to start off with preconceptions, then to discard (rather than assess) anything that contradicts them.
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
its np man ,there are alot of things lost in translation on walls of texts >.>
*******
kal read the following
kal suck my ****
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I don't understand what Kal did wrong... Or am I just not understanding his post?
kailo34ce
Smash Lord
sure np ill explain
firstly you have to know kal, hes unique, its why people hate him but i love him. but anyway thats what he said
this was me doing the opposite of what he said, going against my initial statement (opinion) just to you know kinda go with the crowd and admit i was mistaken,which was still argued with lol (and later argued to prove i was right) even when i agreed anyway,which was overlooked i assume. no big deal.
me saying him to "blank my blank" was just friendly trash talk