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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

T

tarheeljks

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
1,857
Location
land of the free
Sveet said:
if you want to take information about how the match-up can be played, the information is very valuable. If you want to get information about who can stall more, camp, not commit and otherwise play as gay as possible, look at tournament results. Any character can win if they just do these things, look at shroomed. If you have to do these things in order to win, the match-up is not even. Its bad. Really bad.
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wasn't going to respond but w/e. wat at the bolded

edit: have you taken his set against hbox as a characterization of his standard play?

lol, swear it's coincidence that he's reading this thread now
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Merkuri said:
Even without wobbling?

You say that as if ICs don't also lose to Fox and Falco. Peach also wrecks ICs harder than any high tier shoulld get wrecked. Falcon also does better against ICs, Falco and Marth. I'd also argue that Falcon does better against Puff but I understand that there is no consensus on that matchup.
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lol'd at Falcon doing better against Puff and Falco.

Mew2King said:
2) puff (i honestly think puff is 2nd, especially since she can plank the fast faller characters once she has a stock or % lead and the MU becomes much worse at that point)
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You really need to stop saying this until you can back it up with tournament data, until then, planking is not broken with anyone.

Merkuri said:
I just really don't think ICs are so impressive. With wobbling off I could eventually see Doc surpassing them in the tier list.
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You overrate the influence of Wobbling.

clowsui said:
something you always seem to think about when evaluating your own play (i.e. how ****ty you happen to be playing on a given day)
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This is so true xD

Blu said:
Being civil is the first step of conveying your side of an argument. Without it, you're just putting a bullet in your foot. You'll probably lose friends, too.

Ily Leffen, but I thought you'd be plenty smart enough to see this.
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^This^

Sveet said:
if you want to take information about how the match-up can be played, the information is very valuable. If you want to get information about who can stall more, camp, not commit and otherwise play as gay as possible, look at tournament results. Any character can win if they just do these things, look at shroomed. If you have to do these things in order to win, the match-up is not even. Its bad. Really bad.
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I have no idea how to respond to this amount of stupidity.
 
Kal

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
Open the door, get on the floor, everbody walk the dinosaur.
 
Mew2King

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,263
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
Divinokage said:
What? Ganon vs Falcon is easier than Fox/Sheik for sure.
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you misunderstood, I meant both falcon and ganon get 0-deathed by everyone

and back to mango:
he beat PP in dittos convincingly
he beat hbox in dittos convincingly
he can beat armada (they can beat each other, altho armada has advantage recently)
his falco/puff **** almost everything

idk how u guys (leffen) can sleep on someone that has CLEARLY proven themselves capable in the past many times vs many people. leffen how can you say that he CAN'T beat hbox/armada when he has proven himself quite capable in the past to beat anybody on many occasions. I think that's ignorant
 
Kal

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
I haven't been there in a while, but they were legitimately bad the last time I checked. I assume things have only gotten worse.
 
Kal

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
I hear the Sheik board is pretty bad as well. A friend of mine has a lot of trouble with my Marth (because my spacing is like a boss), so he asked for advice on the Sheik board. And the advice they gave him was ****ing terrible: "try and pressure his shield with ftilt and dtilt."

Because Marth's fair isn't longer than both of those moves.
 
Kal

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
Damnit Beat!

Yeah, I don't have any friends. I just didn't want to be too detailed and say "my roommate." Then people would know who I meant.
 
R

ruhtraeel

Smash Ace
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
707
Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Mew2King said:
i've already stated my reasons for falco in this past hour or so, and all the other posts ive made

i don't see what makes FOX better, except having a 2 frame faster ground jump being his only real advantage. Combos (especially guaranteed combos), RANGE, controlling the match, hitboxes, being able to play at a high level without messing up (human error which IS important but even without this i would think he's better still), and tourney results over past ... almost forever, have convinced me that falco is clearly better. I actually think he's quite a bit better as far as singles goes, and clearly worse in teams.
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Fox is ridiculously fast, has EZ stage control, beast range, fast/hard to punish moves.

Falco = lasers. In every other aspect, he's worse. He's slower, doesn't have as much range when he's not shooting lasers (lasers aren't very safe a lot of the time, especially against someone fast like Fox), gets punished harder, and you have to think about what you do more than with Fox where you can pretty much just run around nair->shine chase.

Also, Fox doesn't need to combo into his kills.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Falco does not get punished harder than Fox rofl. Falco's lower fall speed acceleration helps him massively in a lot of common situations (one of the big ones is knockdown - Falco doesn't get ***** by jab resets NEARLY as badly as Fox). Fox is also way easier to gimp because it's easier to "disrespect" his offstage game because he doesn't have Falco's dair and meteor side-B. Falco also takes longer to die off the top, so he can DI more vertically and survive a lot of situations that would kill Fox.

Fox shine --> nair chasing is a massive oversimplification. It's a good strategy, certainly, but you're really not... arguing anything... real with it. Are you saying Fox doesn't have to think and work to get hits? That's not a good argument - Fox is way more vulnerable to a lot of common defenses than Falco is.

Part of me wants to believe that you're making a M2K parody post and not a real response.
 
Kal

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
You have some breathing room against Fox, which I think makes a larger difference now than it did a few years back where just getting in Falco's face would provide a good chance of getting a kill.
 
Niko45

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Fox is less dead below stage once it comes to the point of being forced below stage.

Falco is a little better initially at dealing with standard dthrow off stage stuff.

Fox in general is a bit less safe as a character and is more prone to getting grabbed by Marth imo, meaning more gimp opportunities in general.

Kind of a toss up though because a lot of "gimping" Fox involves using counter which opens up lots of escape opportunities for him.
 
R

ruhtraeel

Smash Ace
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
707
Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Niko45 said:
Fox is less dead below stage once it comes to the point of being forced below stage.

Falco is a little better initially at dealing with standard dthrow off stage stuff.

Fox in general is a bit less safe as a character and is more prone to getting grabbed by Marth imo, meaning more gimp opportunities in general.

Kind of a toss up though because a lot of "gimping" Fox involves using counter which opens up lots of escape opportunities for him.
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But once you're actually getting gimped in the process, Fox has a better chance of making it back IMO, maybe except for being level with the stage
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
So Falcon boards say Falcon sucks, and Marth boards say Marth sucks...So can we move Peach and ICs over the two? We're obviously more grateful, and more deserving, of our placement on the tier list, since we know how good we are. :troll:
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
You can't trust the boards, though. On the Ganon boards we can't get enough of saying Ganon is better and handsomer than everyone else. Or at least, I can't. I'm not sure how often anyone else brings up the subject of our clear superiority over the other characters.
 
Zoler

Zoler

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
991
Location
Sweden
Mew2King said:
peach is good though =/ falcon gets 0-deathed by too many characters, so i think he's SLIGHTLY overrated (very very slightly) for that reason, since top top level players WILL take advantage of that weakness, esp. as the game evolves
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I agree with this, I'm pretty sure ICs will move up over falcon in the future.
 
RaphaelRobo

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
Would it be better if ICs players could control each IC by using two controllers one handed?
 
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