Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Beat!]

I'd say it's even.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach/Falco is most definitely even.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falco vs Peach is a ****ing fantastic matchup. The new school Fox vs Marth.

It's also Falco's advantage, but w/e.

 

[Merkuri]

I'm on my phone, so I can't quote anyone.

However, I don't mean "peach is overrated" in regards to this tier list in particular. In this, I think Peach is about right (although I have a suspicion that ICs should be higher).

I don't understand how some people can feel that ICs should move up on the tier list. With more and more tournies banning wobbling ICs are en extremely restricted character. They are more exploitable than a lot of mid-tier characters.

 

[Warhawk]

I'm on my phone, so I can't quote anyone.

However, I don't mean "peach is overrated" in regards to this tier list in particular. In this, I think Peach is about right (although I have a suspicion that ICs should be higher). I mean "peach is overrated" in the sense that popular sentiment is leaning toward peach being better than she is (mostly due to people attributing more credit to Peach than is due, thanks to Armada).

Warhawk, I can't see since I'm on my phone, but I assume you're a Falco main (based on your pro-fox opinion, haha, though your avatar helps, too). As a Falco main, it would seem natural that one wouldn't think Peach is overrated. She has a favorable matchup over Falco.

See I was thinking you thought she was overrated on the current tier list. I somewhat agree that a lot of people on here overrate her (i.e. Hax saying she's third). I do think she could be tied with Marth at 5th though, but that's probably as far up as I can see her being. And I think Fox and Falco are so close at number one that it doesn't really matter who you put at one. I lean towards Fox (and I play them both heavily) being number one but I can see why someone would put Falco at number one. I just get annoyed when people act like the current trends serve as irrefutable proof that Falco is better than Fox. Even if he is its probably at most negligible.


@Merkuri Top IC players do not need wobbling to be good, at all. Wobbles does some insane stuff even without wobbling and its ban seems to hardly affect his tournament performance if at all.

 

[EthereaL]

Peach/Falco is most definitely even.

Hm...

Why?

Edit: also, I assume ICs are allowed wobbling when I say I feel they should move up. I don't have any evidence other than I feel there is untapped desyncing potential.

 

[Merkuri]

@Merkuri Top IC players do not need wobbling to be good, at all. Wobbles does some insane stuff even without wobbling and its ban seems to hardly affect his tournament performance if at all.

Considering that the last out of state tournament wobbles won was last year with Wobbling on(P.O.E) I'd have to disagree with you.

And Fly Amanita couldn't even break top 8 at Wintergames fest which had wobbling on, and even though it was a pretty large tournament it really didn't have much top players in attendance. It's a huge disparity from his performance at Genesis. So I think it does affect there placing

 

[Warhawk]

Considering that the last out of state tournament wobbles won was last year with Wobbling on(P.O.E) I'd have to disagree with you.

And Fly Amanita couldn't even break top 8 at Wintergames fest which had wobbling on, and even though it was a pretty large tournament it really didn't have much top players in attendance. It's a huge disparity from his performance at Genesis. So I think it does affect there placing

Sounds more like Fly being inconsistent than his character being dependant on wobbling. I dunno just from the results I've seen, Chu Dat and Wobbles generally place around the same as they do when wobbling is on as they do when its off. Also didn't Wobbles beat M2K without wobbling at Apex? I guess I just don't see a reason for ICs being lower than Doc, Ganon, Samus, or Pikachu even without wobbling.

 

[Merkuri]

Sounds more like Fly being inconsistent than his character being dependant on wobbling. I dunno just from the results I've seen, Chu Dat and Wobbles generally place around the same as they do when wobbling is on as they do when its off. Also didn't Wobbles beat M2K without wobbling at Apex? I guess I just don't see a reason for ICs being lower than Doc, Ganon, Samus, or Pikachu even without wobbling.

idk, Fly Amanita is pretty consistent in tournaments with wobbling on. I could see Doc eventually being higher than ICs with wobbling off but as of now you're right in that ICs are fine where they are, my problem is with people who are saying that they should move up the tier list, which just seems ridiculous to me. There is a notable gap between ICs and what the current tier list defines as 'A' tier.

 

[Warhawk]

idk, Fly Amanita is pretty consistent in tournaments with wobbling on. I could see Doc eventually being higher than ICs with wobbling off but as of now you're right in that ICs are fine where they are, my problem is with people who are saying that they should move up the tier list, which just seems ridiculous to me. There is a notable gap between ICs and what the current tier list defines as 'A' tier.

Yea no they shouldn't move up I think they're good where they are. That's weird with Fly though because I was always under the impression that he used wobbling a lot less than Wobbles or other IC mains.

 

[kailo34ce]

Falco
Shiek
Fox
Jiggs
Peach

is the tier list

then marth falcon and the homies

 

[Warhawk]

Falco
Shiek
Fox
Jiggs
Peach

is the tier list

then marth falcon and the homies

How is Fox not only below Falco, but then also Sheik? Sheik has potentially (not absolutely) 4 negative matchups in the top 11, in other words the matchups that matter. Fox probably has 1 negative matchup in the top 11, maybe 2 but I think that's pushing it. You could even argue that he doesn't have a negative matchup in the entire cast.

 

[kailo34ce]

sheik has alwas been more consistent in general, shes probably the best character in the game the way we all play it, for the next couple of years, i put her below falco imo only cuz these matchups (and how constently high falcos have been placing for like ever)

fox just is too weak, too hard to play consistently and even if you could i would still say super human shiek would be ****.

peach has great placings too

i just dont feel like fox is ever a big threat when you face one, most chars either get ***** by falco or ***** by shiek imo or maybe ***** by jiggs (like marth and peach)

fox is still strong tho.

idk i just feel thats the order (mostly the top 3) and i think general results may back it up altho im not sure, also cuz jiggs representation

btw i main sheik not fox so like this isnt any fox bias

 

[n1000]

hey, stop talking about "super human"

 

[Merkuri]

sheik has alwas been more consistent in general, shes probably the best character in the game the way we all play it, for the next couple of years, i put her below falco imo only cuz these matchups (and how constently high falcos have been placing for like ever)

fox just is too weak, too hard to play consistently and even if you could i would still say super human shiek would be ****.

peach has great placings too

i just dont feel like fox is ever a big threat when you face one, most chars either get ***** by falco or ***** by shiek imo or maybe ***** by jiggs (like marth and peach)

fox is still strong tho.

idk i just feel thats the order (mostly the top 3) and i think general results may back it up altho im not sure, also cuz jiggs representation

btw i main sheik not fox so like this isnt any fox bias

In the past I would have agreed with this, but lately Foxes have been placing better. I'm expecting result at major tournaments to be really good for Fox this year, he'll probably still be behind Falco though.

 

[kailo34ce]

yeah i am hoping fox does better too, i love seeing him win

and @ n1000 "super human" is the only reason fox is even at #1 spot so i was using it as a comparison point

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hm...

Why?

Edit: also, I assume ICs are allowed wobbling when I say I feel they should move up. I don't have any evidence other than I feel there is untapped desyncing potential.

I think that Peach's float allows her to handle him really well at neutral, forcing him to immediately change up his laser game. She combos him fairly well, and is very good at edge guarding him. Turnips, her float, and her aerials (specifically, dair) allow her to cover many of his edge guarding options. Chain grabs are incredibly important for stopping his momentum.

However, Falco is really good at staying on her when he gets any one hit. She's slow, so one laser can turn into 40+ damage. He's combos on her are fairly good, really good with platforms (so I can see an argument for the MU being in her favor on FD). He has effective ways of edge guarding her, more than people give him for. Other than a super, super high recovery, Falco can react to any height Peach tries really well, with good options. I think they both edge guard each other evenly (if they both know how, anyways, Falcos could be edgeguarding her a lot better. Like, you can trade dair with parasol from below the ledge and kill her, dtilt if she tries to float into the ledge, dair is good at mid/high heights, because of his OP FJ, etc). I think he mitigates her CG with the fact that he can control her really well with his own momentum, once he gets going (AC bairs are really good for not letting her do things to him).

I think the shield pressure aspect of the MU (which is very prevalent) is 50/50, tbh. She's got good OoS options, but he's got good on sheild options to stuff those. They kind of have to guess.

Basically, I think they both have very good answers to what the other does to them. I'm not sure if I explained it that well, to be honest, so if there's anything that's unclear, just say so.

 

[Stevo]

Bored at work

Awesome Tier
Fox/Falco (don't have a good argument)
Jiggs
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Proven Tournament Viable Tier
ICs
Falcon
Doc
Pika
Ganon
Samus

Could be Tournament Viable with more representation and under specific circumstances Tier
Luigi
Mario
Yoshi
Young Link

Pride Tier
DK
Zelda/Mewtwo (I'm not going there)
Link
G&W
Roy
Pichu
Ness
Bowser/Kirby (nobody likes to be picked last)

probably forgot someone



Some Explanations

-Jiggs above sheik because no matter what character you are, you have to play her game, and her game is hard.
-Pikachu, Doc, Ganon, and Samus all have few players that can actually do well with them, but they have proven their worth regardless. The order there is just my opinion.
-Yoshi has potential it seems
-DK would be better if more people played bad characters
-Link hasn't been good for a long time

 

[EthereaL]

I think they both have very good answers to what the other does to them.

I think that this describes the match-up very well; however, I believe that Peach's answers are better.

_________________

And, for every player who decries Fox as being "too inconsistent":

If you can do one thing regarding tech-skill, ever, you can practice enough so that you can do it without fail, and utilize it whenever you want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwDHs6UXgR8

Those "Fox's tools can't be utilized" arguments are incredibly frustrating.

 

[kailo34ce]

Bored at work

Awesome Tier
Fox/Falco (don't have a good argument)
Jiggs
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Proven Tournament Viable Tier
ICs
Falcon
Doc
Pika
Ganon
Samus

Could be Tournament Viable with more representation and under specific circumstances Tier
Luigi
Mario
Yoshi
Young Link

Pride Tier
DK
Zelda/Mewtwo (I'm not going there)
Link
G&W
Roy
Pichu
Ness
Bowser/Kirby (nobody likes to be picked last)

probably forgot someone



Some Explanations

-Jiggs above sheik because no matter what character you are, you have to play her game, and her game is hard.
-Pikachu, Doc, Ganon, and Samus all have few players that can actually do well with them, but they have proven their worth regardless. The order there is just my opinion.
-Yoshi has potential it seems
-DK would be better if more people played bad characters
-Link hasn't been good for a long time

i agree with this except i think falcon is a bit more solid than icies.

also kirby is the most underrated char in the game. but its ok, jiggs used to be a low tier

(well zelda is garbage)

 

[john!]

space animals don't lose any matchups

 

[Merkuri]

space animals don't lose any matchups

Well Fox might. The consensus is generally that Falco beats fox in the head to head.

 

[kailo34ce]

i never have the heart to tell a falcon main "no" when they say "its ok ill go fox on that falco next time"

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is an extremely volatile character.

 

[Strong Badam]

Could be Tournament Viable with more representation and under specific circumstances Tier is probably the best name for a tier

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I actually like the idea of just having A, B, C and D tiers, there really isn't any need to split them further than that.

 

[Fletch]

Anyone want to give me a good stage breakdown for the Falco/Peach matchup now that we're talking about it? I used to think it was Falco's only really poor matchup, but I don't really know if that seems to be the case any more. It seems like the current stage list would keep it in Peach's favor, as FoD, FD, and DL64 all seem to favor Peach, but I'm willing to hear from someone more experienced than me.

 

[kailo34ce]

we need a board for anti falco strategies.

 

[Strong Badam]

FD and DL64 favor Peach slightly, YS is even, FoD is probably even, PS favors Falco, BF is probably evenish to Falco advantage bcause of the high platform.

 

[ShroudedOne]

YS is even? I certainly don't see how. The fact that he can kills her at 60, and can ride the wall for recovery should place it in his favor, if slightly.

Strong Bad, I'm also curious as to why you think the MU is even.

 

[SSBMLahti]

I dislike the Peach vs Falco matchup so much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

DL is a great stage for falco, even against peach. What, he kills her 20% later while gaining a lot of retreating space and a highly abusable top plat. Peach wants to be close range meaning FoD and YS are better choices for her. FD is good cause of ez walling and CGs too

 

[KirbyKaze]

DL64 is not better for Falco than YS is.

 

[kailo34ce]

isnt BF bad for falco in general? i mean i know the top platform is good for him but isnt his recovery really bad there?

 

[Warhawk]

YS is even? I certainly don't see how. The fact that he can kills her at 60, and can ride the wall for recovery should place it in his favor, if slightly.

Strong Bad, I'm also curious as to why you think the MU is even.

If I had to guess its because he can't control space as effectively with lasers on YS. The close platforms also help Peach combo Falco.

 

[tarheeljks]

isnt BF bad for falco in general? i mean i know the top platform is good for him but isnt his recovery really bad there?

assume you're talking about getting battlefielded-- don't hold towards the ledge when sweetspotting

 

[kailo34ce]

well no i just mean it hinders space animal recovery in general. but i guess its more of a player specific preference more than a character specific

 

[tarheeljks]

oh i see, the platforms give more recovery options

 

[Wake]

DL64 is not better for Falco than YS is.

I agree with this.

 

[Niko45]

Falco scrapes Peach.

Fox beats Falco tho.