Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

what do u mean by scrapes? like scrapes by or like do u mean wrecks?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Why do you think so, Niko?

 

[kailo34ce]

oh i see, the platforms give more recovery options

yeah true, sometimes i forget things like that

 

[-ACE-]

I don't really think falco loses to anyone. Fox and marth are essentially even tho imo, and peach, jiggs, and sheik only lose by a tad. I think fox barely loses to falco but generally beats characters by a slightly higher margin than falco (better matchups with marth, peach, sheik, jiggs, Ganon, etc.)

 

[Niko45]

Why do you think so, Niko?

Well Falco has more mobility than Peach even laserless, more range, and as fast/faster hitboxes. There isn't really any excuse for him not to outspace Peach every step of the way. To top it off, he has a huge control advantage by winning the projectile war soundly. The one downside for him is that his shield pressure is higher risk and lower reward than usual, but you can still do safe stuff like laser grab or laser spaced ftilt on shield in order to maintain some pressure without putting yourself at risk. Peach isn't well designed to take advantage of powershielding either so there's not much potential for approaching there.

Basically Peach needs mistakes so it depends how forgiving you are of human error in judging a matchup because if Falco doesn't over commit he's going to beat Peach soundly. It may take a while but it'll happen. Even if he does mess up, Falco has probably the best pressure escape in the game by being able to full hop to top platform, meaning if Peach gives him any daylight he should be able to reset himself.

Fox beats Falco because he slips through the cracks in Falco's zoning better than anyone and is a threat to kill Falco off of ANY hit whatsoever.

 

[Max?]

Well Falco has more mobility than Peach even laserless, more range, and as fast/faster hitboxes. There isn't really any excuse for him not to outspace Peach every step of the way. To top it off, he has a huge control advantage by winning the projectile war soundly. The one downside for him is that his shield pressure is higher risk and lower reward than usual, but you can still do safe stuff like laser grab or laser spaced ftilt on shield in order to maintain some pressure without putting yourself at risk. Peach isn't well designed to take advantage of powershielding either so there's not much potential for approaching there.

Basically Peach needs mistakes so it depends how forgiving you are of human error in judging a matchup because if Falco doesn't over commit he's going to beat Peach soundly. It may take a while but it'll happen. Even if he does mess up, Falco has probably the best pressure escape in the game by being able to full hop to top platform, meaning if Peach gives him any daylight he should be able to reset himself.

Fox beats Falco because he slips through the cracks in Falco's zoning better than anyone and is a threat to kill Falco off of ANY hit whatsoever.

Agreed with this entire post

 

[S l o X]

I agree with that post too but I don't think Falco loses hard to Fox by any means. (not that he said this)

55-45 at best.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is, in all seriousness, one of the best characters at exploiting Falco's "My powers are greatly cut down when I'm not in control" weakness.

That said, arbitrarily dying in one hit is a real problem.

 

[kailo34ce]

do any of foxs aerials not trade or lose to falcos utilt?

 

[choknater]

probably not

dog vs bird though

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fair and first hit bair might be able to beat utilt.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bair can beat it but you often have better options vs defensive stuff like up tilt.

 

[kailo34ce]

screw it lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why does Fox's utilt have hitboxes inside the hitboxes? o_O

Spoiler

hitboxception

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well Falco has more mobility than Peach even laserless, more range, and as fast/faster hitboxes. There isn't really any excuse for him not to outspace Peach every step of the way. To top it off, he has a huge control advantage by winning the projectile war soundly. The one downside for him is that his shield pressure is higher risk and lower reward than usual, but you can still do safe stuff like laser grab or laser spaced ftilt on shield in order to maintain some pressure without putting yourself at risk. Peach isn't well designed to take advantage of powershielding either so there's not much potential for approaching there.

Basically Peach needs mistakes so it depends how forgiving you are of human error in judging a matchup because if Falco doesn't over commit he's going to beat Peach soundly. It may take a while but it'll happen. Even if he does mess up, Falco has probably the best pressure escape in the game by being able to full hop to top platform, meaning if Peach gives him any daylight he should be able to reset himself.

Fox beats Falco because he slips through the cracks in Falco's zoning better than anyone and is a threat to kill Falco off of ANY hit whatsoever.

I think Peach has a really good tool for decreasing the worth of his lasers, and concerning the purpose of his lasers (which is to lock down), I don't think she suffers that much from them. Certainly his projectile is better, but she shouldn't be relying on turnips, anyways (outside of edgeguards).

I think her float cancelled aerials give her enough of an approach to where she doesn't only have mistakes to rely on. Her strength is defense, for sure, but she isn't without tools to force herself into his zone.

As far as powershielding goes, I think Armada has proven that she has viable options out of PS. At the very least, it's a decently useful tactic that can force an approaching Falco to reconsider his approach.

 

[SSBMLahti]

**** Peach.

 

[choknater]

i've internalized a lot of peach facts just from observing macd and armada, and nowadays when i play peach i feel like i'm playing one of the best characters in the game lol. that puff weakness is pretty annoying but dude, she's so good LOL

i can't believe it's not butter i'm fabio

 

[Strong Badam]

Why does Fox's utilt have hitboxes inside the hitboxes? o_O

Spoiler

hitboxception

Utilt has a different angle against grounded opponents than it does against aerial opponents. The hitboxes are basically at the same location. Same happens on Doc's usmash for example.

Aerial: 80 or 84 depending on spacig.
Grounded: 110 (sends them in front of Fox by 20 degrees)

 

[j00t]

Game and Watch is too stronk.

Honestly he should be above Roy and Young Link.

 

[Geenareeno]

Says the Game and Watch main. Play Roy and YL for as much time as you have put into G&W and then tell us your opinion.

 

[kailo34ce]

on a related note, i think roy can 0-death gaw(also pichu) on YS with b/dthrow to fsmash

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

why not just use reverse upb to 1hko?

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-tilt > reverse Up+B is, in fact, a true combo. And can be tech chased into. Fortunately, Pichu and GaW are famed for their extremely long tech rolls and ability to mixup tech options effectively.

 

[kailo34ce]

i always wondered what armada said to KK before he fought axe in apex crews

 

[KirbyKaze]

It was something like, "Don't choke."

I failed that utterly.

:x

 

[kailo34ce]

yeah but also stylishly.

to be fair tho thats pretty terrible "advice" lol

 

[choknater]

honestly though when i do bobacks for example, i start paying attention a lot more to my execution. it is decent advice

 

[KirbyKaze]

It was more than that lolz. It was like, "Don't worry about the crowd. Tune everything else out. Play your game."

Axe is too hard lolz.

 

[choknater]

oh LOL

u lost to axe LOOOOOOOOOL

dude just play sheik and win

 

[kailo34ce]

yeah Axe is one of the toughest characters in melee

 

[choknater]

axe is great

but pikachu is so beatable

all his "range" comes from his running short hop, which is a HUGE commitment.

 

[kailo34ce]

yeah if they had a list that ranked all the characters in melee i dont think pikachu would be very close to the top

 

[choknater]

pika's game plan is to use his running nair. he'll probably dash dance a lot or use some thunder jolts to set it up, but that's generally his main approach.

if u recognize that the running nair is his main tool, u can intercept it with many things.

 

[kailo34ce]

if u recognize that the running nair is his main tool, u can intercept it with many things.

name 20 things

 

[choknater]

why 20?

lol

peach's nair
fox utilt
falco utilt
shield grab w/ many characters (maybe wd back shield grab since he'll usually want to cross you up)
ice climbers blizzard
ice climbers fsmash
ice climbers ftilt
marth nair
marth fair

idk im tired of this now


u can shield and if he doesnt cross u up, shield grab

u can shield and if he does cross u up, hold shield and wait to see he uairs, or you can c-stick roll away

 

[kailo34ce]

ill accept it as a wonderful perfect answer if you edit it to be alphabetically ordered.

 

[choknater]

i don't feel like it lol

i'm watching axe vs taj's samus right now though lol

 

[Niko45]

That's not quite 20 things.

Pikachu officially broken

 

[kailo34ce]

im pretty sure we should ban every stage that helps pikachu in any way

 

[choknater]

shoutouts to festizzio