Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Mew2King]

man you suck at arguing dude, at least everything that i say is actually true or actually happened, you just insult people you don't agree with

armada thinks peach is better than falcon also, so idk how you can put falcon above her just because falcon wins the head to head MU and beats marth a bit harder. I think Falcon might actually be worse than ice climbers (with wobbling legal) because you can 0 to death falcon so easily with so many characters

 

[Kal]

you just insult people you don't agree with

man you suck at arguing dude

teehee

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

ICs are better than Falcon even without wobbling..

Falcon has losing MUs to Falco, Fox, and Sheik. I don't give a damn if he does fantastic v. everyone else. That fact alone makes ICs better..

 

[Charlesz]

 

[Merkuri]

I at least enjoy how hard the fox mains **** the falco's in results (we always have, outside of PP, but people are dumb)
Apex top 64 had ~27 fox players but only 8 falco players ~_~ (same thing with G2 tbh)

How do you get ~27~ fox players? I count 18. I'm bored so I'm actually going to average out the scores and find out the results.

 

[King5280]

leffen just spouts jibberish and then trolls all over everyone who doesnt agree with said jibberish.

 

[Mew2King]

i would actually agree that falcon should be below ICs, except that ICs lose head to head and are much worse vs peach, but i think they do better against ALL of the top 4 or 5 characters than falcon does

 

[Merkuri]

i would actually agree that falcon should be below ICs, except that ICs lose head to head and are much worse vs peach, but i think they do better against ALL of the top 4 or 5 characters than falcon does

Even without wobbling?

ICs are better than Falcon even without wobbling..

Falcon has losing MUs to Falco, Fox, and Sheik. I don't give a damn if he does fantastic v. everyone else. That fact alone makes ICs better..

You say that as if ICs don't also lose to Fox and Falco. Peach also wrecks ICs harder than any high tier shoulld get wrecked. Falcon also does better against ICs, Falco and Marth. I'd also argue that Falcon does better against Puff but I understand that there is no consensus on that matchup.

 

[tarheeljks]

How do you get ~27~ fox players? I count 18. I'm bored so I'm actually going to average out the scores and find out the results.

how do you intend to account for use of secondaries? anecdotally, i'd say falco mains are more likely to use a secondary, often fox


edit: and htis definitely happened at apex. example, zhu using fox against darc and i think hbox

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Even without wobbling?

You say that as if ICs don't also lose to Fox and Falco. Peach also wrecks ICs harder than any high tier shoulld get wrecked. Falcon also does better against ICs, Falco and Marth. I'd also argue that Falcon does better against Puff but I understand that there is no consensus on that matchup.

You think Falcon does better than ICs against Falco and Puff.

Alright bro.

 

[Zoler]

Even without wobbling?



You say that as if ICs don't also lose to Fox and Falco. Peach also wrecks ICs harder than any high tier shoulld get wrecked. Falcon also does better against ICs, Falco and Marth. I'd also argue that Falcon does better against Puff but I understand that there is no consensus on that matchup.

Falcon does better against puff? Do you even play this game?

 

[Kal]

Did Puff start ****** Falcon at one point? It's been a few years since I've given a thought to the matchup, but back in the day it was fairly even, albeit slightly in Puff's favor.

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK

I was comparing Fox-Falcon and Sheik-Falcon to Fox-Luigi and Sheik-Luigi (falco too, I guess) implying that Luigi does as good if not better against these characters and Cfalcon is a clear high tier for most everybody. Add in decent to good matchups vs Jiggs Peach Ics, Marth and Falcon himself and hes pretty clear in his placing for me.

I agree with you that Falco ***** CF harder than Sheik and Fox do.

Misunderstanding ftl

I think Fox and Sheik are harder for Luigi to beat than Falcon to beat. Luigi's too linear as a character, I think. It's too easy for Fox to shut down his approaches and then just back him up at the edge and **** him. Sheik just kind of eats him and with the exception of FD his edgeguarding isn't really stellar on her, which is one of her usual big weaknesses (unless they learn how to do the Dair meteor to launch her lolz but that's really hard vs her up-B lag 'cuz of how much she moves while standing and stuff). He's also kind of weak against platform play on a bunch of levels. Falcon just has more strong positions.

I don't think Luigi is good against Falcon or ICs either. ICs have a really annoying defense and Falcon outmaneuvers him and kills him too efficiently. I don't think these are as bad as the above though.

Anyway, I could still see Luigi being placed at top of mid tier or whatever in spite of all this. His offense is strong, he has good priority, and he's got resistance to a lot of important stuff. So why not?

 

[Mew2King]

the real tier list:

1) falco (combos everything to death)
2) puff (i honestly think puff is 2nd, especially since she can plank the fast faller characters once she has a stock or % lead and the MU becomes much worse at that point)
3) fox (better vs peach than falco, and prolly puff but honestly i think falco might give puff a rougher time its just more work and takes a lot longer to do it because he can't KO as fast)
4) sheik (solid 4th imo)
5) marth/peach (marth's way better vs fox, and FD/YS, but not much else)
7) ics
8) falcon (gets comboed to death by EVERYBODY)
9) doc
10) pikachu

something similar to that imo

for SINGLES ONLY

and yeah, until i see a reason why fox should be above falco/puff (i've been playing for TEN YEARS, almost 7 in tourneys, and I still do not see fox being better than falco at least), I think he is 3rd. Most overrated character for sure. I think it's because he jumps faster than falco so because of that one factor, people overrate him. His shield pressure advantage is only 1 frame above falco's when you consider that falco's shine has 1 frame more of hitstun, and unless you have over 50% consistency with lasers, then falco's lasers make you play at his pace, and fox's combos are more crouch cancelable and DIable and he also has less range on important moves like Bair. I definitely think falco is better in singles than fox without question at all.

 

[Merkuri]

Falcon does better against puff? Do you even play this game?

I'm well aware that lately people(in particular Chokantor) have argued that ICs beat Puff. I just don't buy it. Pretty much all the evidence in tourney results points to the opposite. You can watch Hbox vs Wobbles at either Genesis or2 Apex.

And I'll go ahead and preempt this buy saying that Fly Amanita beating Hbox was a fluke and I'm confident it won't happen again. Lastly you're being silly if you think Falcon doing better against Puff is a farfetched notion.

Edit: And now that wobbling being banned has become a bit more popular I think we'll be seeing less and less impressive accomplishments from ICs in the future.

 

[Merkuri]

whoops double post.

 

[Warhawk]

For all the weaknesses Ganon has I still can't see him being outside the top 12. His grab game, punishment game, and KO ability warrant him being at least above the middle. Its just that Fox and Sheik are terrible for him, but that's pretty much the story of everyone below him too.

 

[Mew2King]

ganon has falcon's problem: everyone 0-deaths him

pikachu and doc are, without question, better than ganon, at top/high level play

 

[Veetaak]

the real tier list:

1) falco (combos everything to death)

Typical m2k thing to say

 

[Mew2King]

typical falco main response

 

[Veetaak]

Not that putting Falco at the top is weird but the added "combos everything to death" is typical of you

 

[King5280]

i agree completely with m2ks list except imo puff and fox should be switched

 

[Merkuri]

I just really don't think ICs are so impressive. With wobbling off I could eventually see Doc surpassing them in the tier list.

 

[tarheeljks]

And now that wobbling being banned has become a bit more popular I think we'll be seeing less and less impressive accomplishments from ICs in the future.

you expect fewer impressive accomplishments from ics due to wobbling bans. . .wobbling was banned at apex and wobbles, who would stand to suffer the most from the ban, got 9th. chu "only" t-33rd and ran into bladewise (peach). fly hardly ever wobbles. think you are overstating the strength of wobbling


edit: or underestimating the ability of the top ic mains to win without it

 

[Warhawk]

ganon has falcon's problem: everyone 0-deaths him

pikachu and doc are, without question, better than ganon, at top/high level play

I can agree with Doc, but Pika? I thought Pika did better against the spacies but that Ganon did much better than Pika against ICs, Peach, Samus, and Marth. Maybe even Doc and Sheik(though its still terrible for both so really insignificant) too. I definitely see it as debatable...


Also Merkuri you are heavily overrating the boost ICs get from wobbling. Its there, but its not that significant. Plus they still have handoffs and Fly uses those more than wobbling it seems anyways.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Handoff is strictly inferior to wobbling for so many reasons. Please don't compare them. Or wobbling to any throw technique lolz. It's very, very different.

 

[Warhawk]

I wasn't trying to say they're the same or compare them, merely explain that the ICs still have other great tools to use, as his "unimpressive" comment made it seem as if that's pretty much their entire game (though it is a fairly large part).

 

[Armada]

M2k: Mangos Puff is worse then Hbox nowadays and he is also not playing the Puff/Peach MU correct. I honestly think I would beat Mangos puff with Peach. And if he would stay Jiggs on one of my counterpicks I can play Young Link.

Mango is a awesome player but I think he is better with both Fox/Falco now

 

[Beat!]

I think Veetaak and M2K should moneymatch, and the winner also gets to decide Falco's placing.

AND he gets to call the loser names.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Armada, why do you think Mango plays you with Fox and not Falco even though Falco is probably his best? Are you very good against Falco or maybe he's bad at the Peach match-up with Falco

 

[Beat!]

Mango himself said his Fox is better, and I think Lovage has said the same as well.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Interesting. Guess he would know best lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

javi's best MU is falco dude (by FAR from what I was told), he plays that MU all the time, but mango's falco still 2-0d him (solidly 2nd time) in the friendlies they had. PP is not as good vs fox as Javi is vs falco at all. PP beats mangos fox the majority of their friendlies though, and mangos falco beats every fox the majority.

man m2k

I'm disappointed

 

[Mew2King]

disappointed in what? you're not the best falco against fox, and he is the best fox against falco. You beat every Fox but Javi so far, and mango's falco beat every fox player. Leffen's argument was about Fox beating falco or fox being better than falco because he beat you and outplaced you this tournament, and I am explaining in detail why that's not a good conclusion with different things that have happened. So what are you disappointed about? (I honestly don't know)

fox is a much better character vs peach than falco is imo

 

[clowsui]

because it should be clear that dr pp wasn't playing anywhere CLOSE to his best vs javi, something you always seem to think about when evaluating your own play (i.e. how ****ty you happen to be playing on a given day)

 

[Mew2King]

Ummmm... ok? Doesn't that SUPPORT MY CASE EVEN MORE????

Do you realize that you saying PP not playing at his best FURTHER PROVES leffen wrong?

Leffen said fox being > falco because javi beat pp, so if pp wasn't at his best that supports my case even more, thanks

 

[leffen]

god damn ur dumb

I simply said that the long standing argument of "WELL FOX CANT BEAT FALCO BECAUSE PP AND MANGO **** FOXES LOLOLOLOL" doesn't work anymore because of Javi. And you can't seriously take some friendlies as proof that Mangos Falco>Javi (Javi played horribly in those lol) and to then use that to conclude that Fox<Falco... lmfao
Tournament results should never be used to decide a match up and I certainly did not use that as my argument for Fox beating Falco lmao.

Also:
Javi lacks A LOT of tech skill and he doesn't use a lot of essential stuff with Fox, but he proved that you can just rush over falco and let the character do the talking lmao

 

[Mew2King]

falco can do that to fox too though, and mango's falco beats EVERY fox. I even saw mango almost jv 5 stock lucky in falco vs Fox on FD back the week before Apex 2010. I saw it in person as he was doing it, it was pretty amazing.

 

[clowsui]

"you're not the best falco against fox"

think that's what he might've been disappointed about lol. name one falco better than PP at this MU

i mean mango could be better than him at this MU, but beyond that...? then again there aren't really that many relevant falco mains in the US other than pp/mango (zhu?)

 

[Mew2King]

wait a minute, leffen you just said tournament results should not be used to decide a MU, but you criticize me when I use friendlies? what?? You aren't being consistent, except consistently saying things only you want to post. I am considering everything, and based off EVERYTHING i think falco > fox and I am explaining why. When you don't agree with me you say things like "you're stupid", throw around insults, and don't use consistent logic <__<