Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[exidid]

My first attempt at a tier list:

BROKEN TIER:

Meta-knight

No bad matchups, best recovery, best edgeguard, aerial and priority game. >:O

Top Tier:

Snake
Falco
King Dedede


Upper Tier:

Game and Watch
ROB
Marth
Pikachu
Wario


High Tier:

Lucario
Kirby
Toon Link
Pit
Ice Climbers
DK
Wolf
Diddy Kong

Mid Tier:

Olimar
Zelda
Peach
Fox
Luigi
ZSS
Mario
Ike

Low Tier:

Samus
Ness
Shiek
Lucas
Sonic
Bowser
Ganondorf
Pokemon Trainer

Bottom Tier

Link
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Captain Falcon

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Top Tier:
Mk
G&W
Snake

High Tier: To much BS, not going there

Middle Tier: To much BS not going there.

Low tier
A bunch of people
Link and yoshi

Bottom Tier
Samus
Jiggles
Captain Falcon

 

[Tenki]

:l

I don't normally follow this thread but...

Since when did people stop putting Sonic in bottom tier?

you know, with the whole "lol he has less priority than Falcon" deal and "speed doesn't count for **** in Brawl" arguments from the past...


It's almost as if people are getting less ignorant ;__;

 

[Zankoku]

Sonic has less priority than Falcon? At least his attacks have less startup.

 

[Snail]

List

G&W, ROB and Marth belong in the same tier as Falco and D3 in my opinion. In fact I'd say G&W should be 3rd. So yeah. You should probably move those three to "top" (which should be upper). Olimar should be above or under Wario but at least near him and absolutely not below Wolf, TL and Lucario >_> Kirby seems a bit high. Zelda should be above Wolf imo. The rest looks... meh. I would put Ganondorf in bottom but that might just be me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sonic has less priority than Falcon? At least his attacks have less startup.

Actually, it really depends on the attack, most of Sonic's attacks have low priority, but some actually feature pretty high priority.

Whereas the only attack falcon has with reasonable priority is his jab....

 

[Tenki]

jab, u-tilt, U-air, fsmash, falcon kick.

not too sure about his other tilts, but they should be pretty good ;3

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, maybe the "no priority, no kill moves" stereotype is wearing off.

 

[Iwan]

I think it has to do with the fact that people realized sonic can actually combo really well (actual combos too), and that falcon still has a TON of start up lag/post lag on a lot of his moves. He's definitely stronger than sonic though, and even though his reach sucks, he has more than sonic. I like his aerials better than sonic, but that's just opinion. I used to think Falcon was one spot ahead of sonic on the tier list, but sonic is good at comboing, has a really good recovery (and a lot of recovery options), and that spring board is pretty d*mn useful....

Both sonic and falcon take a lot of practice to become proficient with, but I think sonic is harder to use and has a bigger learning curve.

That's my take on it : /

 

[KingK]

I think the averaged tier list is pretty interesting, and actually fairly accurate all things considered.

The list of characters with the most standard deviation is also very interesting.

How far back did you go to average all the different tier lists together? Are there lists averaged in there from when the game first came out?

 

[Falling Whistness]

I think the averaged tier list is pretty interesting, and actually fairly accurate all things considered.

The list of characters with the most standard deviation is also very interesting.

How far back did you go to average all the different tier lists together? Are there lists averaged in there from when the game first came out?

No, I only did the last 150 pages or so of this thread. I took each person's most recent tier list going back to page 714.

 

[Tenki]

Well, maybe the "no priority, no kill moves" stereotype is wearing off.

Awe, I kinda liked it. lol

I think it has to do with the fact that people realized sonic can actually combo really well (actual combos too), and that falcon still has a TON of start up lag/post lag on a lot of his moves. He's definitely stronger than sonic though, and even though his reach sucks, he has more than sonic. I like his aerials better than sonic, but that's just opinion. I used to think Falcon was one spot ahead of sonic on the tier list, but sonic is good at comboing, has a really good recovery (and a lot of recovery options), and that spring board is pretty d*mn useful....

Both sonic and falcon take a lot of practice to become proficient with, but I think sonic is harder to use and has a bigger learning curve.

That's my take on it : /

`.`; meh, it's not so much combos that make Sonic. Sonic has an awesome grab/chasing game, as well as mobility and mindgame tools to pull off other things.

Falcon seems to be a pretty good disruptor/juggler/pressurer once you take into account airdodges and opponent reactions.

I main Sonic and have Falcon for fun (though he's... my most developed 'secondary') and even though I can pull 2-3stocks on people with Sonic, I kill (and die) faster with Falcon lol.





edit/reply to next post:
It's decent. Well, still kinda 'weak' in that it clangs with attacks, but clanging isn't necessarily always a bad thing all the time. Its knockback is kinda low, but it pops the opponent up for a U-air/U-tilt. As an approach, not the best thing cause it slows down and gets easily shieldgrabbed.

 

[Nestec]

How good is Captain Falcon's dashattack? I mean, as far as priority and knockback/damage goes? I find it pretty useful to pop one of those out of a crouch. Pretty quick, and reaches pretty well.

::has forgotten that this isn't the Captain Falcon boards::
X__x

 

[Iwan]

How good is Captain Falcon's dashattack? I mean, as far as priority and knockback/damage goes? I find it pretty useful to pop one of those out of a crouch. Pretty quick, and reaches pretty well.

::has forgotten that this isn't the Captain Falcon boards::
X__x

It's a really good move actually...you can't use it a ton though because like everyone else's dash attack it's easily shield grabbed. It comes out really quick though...dash attack>>Up Tilt is a "combo" used by a lot of falcon mains.

 

[Crank]

Take 2...

Top

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake

High.

3. Game and Watch
4. Falco
5. ROB
6. Pit
7. Marth
8. Toon Link
9. D3

Middle:

10. Olimar
11. Wario
12. Lucario
13. Pikachu
14. Ice Climbers
15. Kirby
16. Zelda
17. DK
18. ZSS
19. Diddy
20. Wolf
21. Fox

Low:

22. Ivysaur
23. Lucas
24. Shiek
25. Squirtle
26. Link
27. Mario
28. Ness
29. Peach
30. Sonic
31. Luigi
32. Ike
33. Bowser

Bottom:

34. Charizard
35. Yoshi
36. Jiggz
37. Samus
38. Captain Falcon
39. Ganon

 

[the end 101]

I like DanGR's tier list - despite some dubious rankings. But I like the idea of MK having his own tier as it reflects the current metagame more accurate, than any other tier list I've seen so far

1.) It shows that MK breaks the game but Snake doesn't
2.) It shows that Snake and G&W are not an entire tier apart from Marth, Falco and D3


So here's my take on the tier list:

Snake-Tier:

Metaknight

Top-Tier:

Snake
Mr. Game And Watch
Marth
Falco
R.O.B
King Dedede
Olimar
Wario

High-Tier:

Pit
Wolf
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Pikachu
Toon Link
Kirby
Zelda

Mid-Tier:

Ice Climbers
Fox
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Ness
Peach
Lucas
Mario

Low-Tier:

Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Sonic
Ike
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer

Bottom-Tier:

Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Samus
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon


Watcha think?

I second this list!!!

 

[cutter]

Why is MK in the "Snake tier"

 

[Deathcarter]

I second this list!!!

Anything with Samus in bottom and not in low equals auto-fail.

Assuming a reasonably sized low tier, this is my guess on what it will look like:

Low Tier

-Ness: Has a good approaching and spacing tool (fair). PK fire, although slow, sets up for combos. Yo-yos are a good smash attack that leaves him protected. Most powerful throw in the game. However, he has awful recovery and a grab release hurdle.
-Mario: Only okay killing power and small range (not as bad as Sonic), but excellent edgeguarding capabilities, a decent approach, and actual combo potential. He could be mid if he was at least D rank in the tournament listings.
-Sonic: An excellent grab game with a great tech chasing game. Combo potential, good aerials, and the ability to rack up fast damage. Low killing power and horrible range hold him back.
-Pokemon Trainer: Ivysaur has great spacing tools, a good, however limited projectile. Can rack up insane damage with bullet seed and fsmash as well as uair and even a fresh fair are good kill moves. Also has the best matchups of the three. Charizard is a survivalist with good recovery, great weight, being able to survive into high percentages. Rock Smash rocks (lol). Great grab range rivaling King Dedede. Squirtle just sucks. Ivysaur and Charizard would have better tier placement if they could fight on their own.
-Samus: Samus has great tools for spacing (ftilt and zair), a decent camping game (try avoiding homing missle, charge shots and her zair all at once), the best recovery in terms of options aside from multi-jumpers/Wario, combo ability (ALL of her aerials auto-cancel), a great gimp game, the ability to rack up quick damage (not as well as Meta/Sonic), and great weight. Hylian said if she had a good KO move, she would be high tier easily. Honestly, going by character potential, she has the best chance at middle next to Sonic and Mario.
-Yoshi: Bair is a good aerial approach, eggs are a damaging projectile with a rediculous range, pivot grab stops almost all ground approaches (it is actually fast unlike his other grabs), has the fastest air speed, is next to Samus in weight, and his recovery shouldn't ever be gimped due to his second jump having heavy armor frames. I am giving Yoshi an objective analysis and honestly have to say he is better than the guys below him. He would probably move above Pokemon Trainer if he has an even matchup against Meta Knight.
-Bowser: He has a good ground game, an excellent ftilt (obviously behind Snake's), two great croud clearing moves in Dsmash and Up-B, and is very heavy. Has a bad approach however, has bad aerials aside from uair and fair and even these two are pretty laggy. Predictable recovery, and is very easily juggled.

Bottom tier
Ike
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[Browny]

-Mario: Only okay killing power and small range (not as bad as Sonic), but excellent edgeguarding capabilities, a decent approach, and actual combo potential. He could be mid if he was at least D rank in the tournament listings.
-Sonic: An excellent grab game with a great tech chasing game. Combo potential, good aerials, and the ability to rack up fast damage. Low killing power and horrible range hold him back.

no.

Sonic doesnt have horribly low range on many attacks, only his fsmash is short, but when its stutter stepped it is only outranged by very few (only DK, lucario, falco, Wolf, DDD outrange it, while mario/CF/ganon can stuter step thiers too to give it > sonics range.)

Sonics dsmash and uair have seriously large range, with his uair going through things like G&W key, TL dair etc. ftilt has decent enough range, i dont think even half the roster outranges that and his bair/dtilt both have either average or above average range. remember when talking about range, you cant compare everything to snake or DK. when you put sonics range against someone like mario/luigi/fox/diddy you will see its not bad at all

 

[Glick]

Anything with Samus in bottom and not in low equals auto-fail.

Assuming a reasonably sized low tier, this is my guess on what it will look like:

Low Tier

-Ness: Has a good approaching and spacing tool (fair). PK fire, although slow, sets up for combos. Yo-yos are a good smash attack that leaves him protected. Most powerful throw in the game. However, he has awful recovery and a grab release hurdle.
-Mario: Only okay killing power and small range (not as bad as Sonic), but excellent edgeguarding capabilities, a decent approach, and actual combo potential. He could be mid if he was at least D rank in the tournament listings.
-Sonic: An excellent grab game with a great tech chasing game. Combo potential, good aerials, and the ability to rack up fast damage. Low killing power and horrible range hold him back.
-Pokemon Trainer: Ivysaur has great spacing tools, a good, however limited projectile. Can rack up insane damage with bullet seed and fsmash as well as uair and even a fresh fair are good kill moves. Also has the best matchups of the three. Charizard is a survivalist with good recovery, great weight, being able to survive into high percentages. Rock Smash rocks (lol). Great grab range rivaling King Dedede. Squirtle just sucks. Ivysaur and Charizard would have better tier placement if they could fight on their own.
-Samus: Samus has great tools for spacing (ftilt and zair), a decent camping game (try avoiding homing missle, charge shots and her zair all at once), the best recovery in terms of options aside from multi-jumpers/Wario, combo ability (ALL of her aerials auto-cancel), a great gimp game, the ability to rack up quick damage (not as well as Meta/Sonic), and great weight. Hylian said if she had a good KO move, she would be high tier easily. Honestly, going by character potential, she has the best chance at middle next to Sonic and Mario.
-Yoshi: Bair is a good aerial approach, eggs are a damaging projectile with a rediculous range, pivot grab stops almost all ground approaches (it is actually fast unlike his other grabs), has the fastest air speed, is next to Samus in weight, and his recovery shouldn't ever be gimped due to his second jump having heavy armor frames. I am giving Yoshi an objective analysis and honestly have to say he is better than the guys below him. He would probably move above Pokemon Trainer if he has an even matchup against Meta Knight.
-Bowser: He has a good ground game, an excellent ftilt (obviously behind Snake's), two great croud clearing moves in Dsmash and Up-B, and is very heavy. Has a bad approach however, has bad aerials aside from uair and fair and even these two are pretty laggy. Predictable recovery, and is very easily juggled.

Bottom tier
Ike
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Ike is bottom tier?!

 

[Deathcarter]

no.

Sonic doesnt have horribly low range on many attacks, only his fsmash is short, but when its stutter stepped it is only outranged by very few (only DK, lucario, falco, Wolf, DDD outrange it, while mario/CF/ganon can stuter step thiers too to give it > sonics range.)

Sonics dsmash and uair have seriously large range, with his uair going through things like G&W key, TL dair etc. ftilt has decent enough range, i dont think even half the roster outranges that and his bair/dtilt both have either average or above average range. remember when talking about range, you cant compare everything to snake or DK. when you put sonics range against someone like mario/luigi/fox/diddy you will see its not bad at all

Your right. I was thinking too much about stuff like Sonic's fsmash. He does have a lot of range on many attacks, I just forgot about it (not really experienced about Sonic so forgive me).

Ike is bottom tier?!

Ike is a VERY simple character to understand and counter. He hits hard, relies on spacing, and has like 3-4 moves he uses most of the time. His recovery is god awful, he has only 2 fast attacks in jab and bair, his grab game is crap, and he gets ***** by ALL of the higher ups. He is just bad.

The only thing he can say is that he has better tourney results than a good bunch of low/bottom characters, but when your are in the D and E ranks of tourney results, they really cannot back up your tier placing.

 

[powell651234]

Take 2...

Top

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake

High.

3. Game and Watch
4. Falco
5. ROB
6. Pit
7. Marth
8. Toon Link
9. D3

Middle:

10. Olimar
11. Wario
12. Lucario
13. Pikachu
14. Ice Climbers
15. Kirby
16. Zelda
17. DK
18. ZSS
19. Diddy
20. Wolf
21. Fox

Low:

22. Ivysaur
23. Lucas
24. Shiek
25. Squirtle
26. Link
27. Mario
28. Ness
29. Peach
30. Sonic
31. Luigi
32. Ike
33. Bowser

Bottom:

34. Charizard
35. Yoshi
36. Jiggz
37. Samus
38. Captain Falcon
39. Ganon

some problems that jumped out...

TL and Pit are a little to high, although they are both very good.

DK and Samus are too low.

 

[Crank]

some problems that jumped out...

TL and Pit are a little to high, although they are both very good.

DK and Samus are too low.

Top

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake

High.

3. Game and Watch
4. Falco
5. ROB
6. Marth
7. D3
8. Pit
9. Toon Link

Middle:

10. Olimar
11. Wario
12. Lucario
13. Pikachu
14. Ice Climbers
15. Kirby
16. Zelda
17. DK
18. ZSS
19. Diddy
20. Wolf
21. Fox

Low:

22. Ivysaur
23. Lucas
24. Shiek
25. Squirtle
26. Link
27. Mario
28. Ness
29. Peach
30. Sonic
31. Luigi
32. Ike
33. Samus

Bottom:

34. Bowser
35. Charizard
36. Yoshi
37. Jiggz
38. Captain Falcon
39. Ganon


???

 

[Empy]

-Bowser: He has a good ground game, an excellent ftilt (obviously behind Snake's), two great croud clearing moves in Dsmash and Up-B, and is very heavy. Has a bad approach however, has bad aerials aside from uair and fair and even these two are pretty laggy. Predictable recovery, and is very easily juggled.

Wait... what? You're crazy. Bowser his ISJR is so easy you can do it the first time you try to so his landing lag doesn't really add into it. And his startup lag on his aerials is actually pretty short. Also, you didn't even mention the fire.

Bottom tier
Ike

Ike isn't great but he's not bottom tier. You said:

Ike is a VERY simple character to understand and counter. He hits hard, relies on spacing, and has like 3-4 moves he uses most of the time. His recovery is god awful, he has only 2 fast attacks in jab and bair, his grab game is crap, and he gets ***** by ALL of the higher ups. He is just bad.

So you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. "Ike his grab game is crap" it's probably the best thing he's got going for him. Jab cancel to grab, grab release to AAA or AA > grab. Just grab, fthrow, to dash, grab or pivot grab.

You also call his recovery god awful. He has a great recovery, aether rules. Using quickdraw as recovery is like giving a 2 year old a machine gun without telling him what end the bullets come out, then look surprised when he shoots himself and no Ike player does it (only n00bs that think zomg he's strong).

 

[Browny]

Ikes A-A-A alone is enough to get him out of bottom tier, that thing is way too good

 

[gallax]

there is no way ike is low tier. he has so much going for him.

 

[Snail]

there is no way ike is low tier. he has so much going for him.

Yeah, like predictability, slowness, a sub-par grab game, quickly decaying tilts, laggy aerials and a horrible horizontal recovery? <_<

 

[Veil2222]

I mained Ike for a long while, and I can say his grabs are great. If your opponent doesn't *really* DI way the hell away from Dthrow/Uthrow those both combo right into Aether with almost no dodge room. That means that you can not only jab cancel to grab/beat to let go to jab combo, but you can jab cancel to dthrow/uthrow (depending on percent) to Aether, which usually goes right to tech chase/shield grab. You can even short hop Nair into jab cancel/throw/Aether at lower percents. If you pull ANY of that off ONCE your opponent usually racks up 30+ dmg from the combos/chases, and another 10-20 trying to get out of it, landing them at 40-60%, and if you don't suck with Ike, you've only taken 0-10% damage getting them there.

And that's just his grab game, he's got more going for him. Yeah, he gets trumped hardcore against projectile style play, but against no projectile/close combat opponents, he can trash someone short order.

 

[Empy]

You live in Haarlem right? Ask Gaki if you can come to any of his weeklies if Chibi is there and u'll never think that way about Ike again.

Or just play me on wifi I don't care.

Edit: also, Ike's grab game IS great but his dthrow and uthrow are really bad and comboing to aether is really stupid. You don't even have to DI just airdodge out of it. And again projectiles aren't the main problem (unless it's bananas), even against like Falco or something I'm more worried about the CG and the utilt/dair then the lasers.

 

[Veil2222]

. Depending on the percent, you can't airdodge all of Aether straight from grab, you either dodge the up hit, or the down hit. I always try to space it to where the spinning blade is one character space above the enemy. Jumping/reverse up+b gets the spacing right most of the time. Falco/Ike is a horrible matchup to begin with, no smart Ike player would even be playing Ike that match. His bad matchups are why I agree that he should be higher low tier, since you shouldn't even play Ike against most of the high+ characters. On a good matchup, with a good player behind him, he's a really tough fighter.

 

[Dantarion]

On a good matchup ike does well? Of course...but.....

Thats why he is so low, he gets owned by half the cast based on just speed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He's just a better Ganondorf imo - Slow, no projectile (or projectile counter) and depends on few quick moves. At least he has a dijointed hitbox and decent priority.

 

[Lex Crunch]

Personally, I believe tiers were only applicable in the first two games. This time 'round, I think they were attempting to eliminate the very thought and they did a pretty good job. The system for determining tiers is flawed and is entirely dependent on how good the players are.

 

[MysticKenji]

Edit: also, Ike's grab game IS great but his dthrow and uthrow are really bad and comboing to aether is really stupid.

I don't think Uthrow's that Bad...it can set up for uairs, utilts, and usmashes if you read their DI right.
It also looks awesome.

words

in b4 flames

 

[ROOOOY!]

I can vouch for Ike not being bottom tier, but he's sure not too far away from it. The game is orientated around punishing mistakes and lag and looking for an opening, and Ike can get punished from just about anything consistantly. I never appreciated Ike's throw game really.
His jabs are like the only move that scares me, as its the only attack (bar a few) without like a second of start-up lag.

Also, I saw a comment about Sonic having no range, that saddened me. I skipped that page altogether then and came to this one.

 

[crewster]

!!!stop!!!

Red=Should move down.
Green=Should move up.

PLEASE stop dividing Pokémon Trainer into Pokémon. People don't seem to notice that the Pokémon changes after losing a stock.

i think that toon link should be high not mid or at least high mid

 

[Scala]

STOP making tier lists I'm no mod but the tier lists will be made in the broom by mods and broomers in time, we just have to be patient, we will get it in time but till then we can just wait

You're just asking for it.

 

[M.K]

STOP making tier lists I'm no mod but the tier lists will be made in the broom by mods and broomers in time, we just have to be patient, we will get it in time but till then we can just wait

You aren't allowed to tell people what to do. They can do it if they so wish it!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

STOP making tier lists I'm no mod but the tier lists will be made in the broom by mods and broomers in time, we just have to be patient, we will get it in time but till then we can just wait

We need something to talk about too

 

[M.K]

Top

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake

High.

3. Game and Watch
4. Falco
5. ROB
6. Marth
7. D3
8. Pit
9. Toon Link

Middle:

10. Olimar
11. Wario
12. Lucario
13. Pikachu
14. Ice Climbers
15. Kirby
16. Zelda
17. DK
18. ZSS
19. Diddy
20. Wolf
21. Fox

Low:

22. Ivysaur
23. Lucas
24. Shiek
25. Squirtle
26. Link
27. Mario
28. Ness
29. Peach
30. Sonic
31. Luigi
32. Ike
33. Samus

Bottom:

34. Bowser
35. Charizard
36. Yoshi
37. Jiggz
38. Captain Falcon
39. Ganon


???

Lucario in High Tier EASILY. Wario farther down. Charizard is Low Tier at least, Luigi at least mid tier. Squirtle and Ivysaur switch places. Yoshi a tiny bit higher, Ganon above Falcon, and Donkey Kong a little farther up. Toon Link farther down