Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Pieisthebest]

High bottom!!!1 lolz

 

[ROOOOY!]

She does actually do a fair bit of damage with her attacks >.>
She also has a good shield pressure game (SHDair's are amazing for that) and a solid recovery, with a good offstage and 'mid-air' game.
The disadvantages just heavily outweigh these rather big advantages though. I'd personally put her top of bottom tier, above Falcon, Ganon, Link and Samus, and maybe others who I forget, but probably not.

 

[DanGR]

Jiggs isn't bottom tier material. Only ganondorf is. Jiggs has the best aerial maneuverability along with a very good aerial game. Brawl is MUCH more aerial based than melee is, remember. Her rather bad ground game can be COMPLETELY avoided. She's got one of (if not the) best edgeguarding abilities in the game in her WoP. She's got an awesome recovery. She's got a great shield pressure game in her dair and pound. She can kill at obscenely low %s with her Wop and dair>rest. She's got light weight, but her floatyness makes her VERY hard to rack against and her maneuverability makes it hard to land the killing blow. I use Jiggs often, and I've lasted up until 200% before by avoiding kill moves. These make her light weight problem almost non-existant. The reason people consider her bad is b/c she's hard to use, and she's VERY VERY VERY unpopular. I think she's the least popular character in the game. No joke when I say this, but I think she's going to end up high-low tier at least.

Give her a break people.

 

[MysticKenji]

This is why Ike is low/bottom http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TgWB28BKPd8

I hope you already knew that Boozer counters Ike before you posted that.

And who the heck is Eric O?

 

[Deathcarter]

I'd personally put her top of bottom tier, above Falcon, Ganon, Link and Samus

Samus is written off as a crap character because she is so floaty, hard to KO with, and has a very steep learning curve. She is in NO way, shape, or form bottom tier.

1. Great recovery, not only in the sense of distance, but in the sense of flexibility. For the most part, she could just float to the stage, but she also has zair, bombs, double jump, AND a very great upb vertically speaking. As far as quality recoveries go, it ties with Wario/ROB behind Pit, Meta, and Jiggly.

2. She is heavy. With a great recovery and her weight, she is an excellent survivalist.

3. She can actually auto-cancel ALL of her aerials into another attack such as upb, jab, ftilt, and dtilt. She actually has combo ability which deals good damage.

4. She deals damage rather quickly with her combo ability, uair, her fully charged b move (it does 25 damage fresh), zair which NEVER goes stale, and missle spam.

5. Missles can be easily dealt with, but you have to factor in that she can also send out charge shots and zair while you are dealing with the missles. If you aerial or air dodge a missle, a Samus can zair or charge blast you during the lag. Missles, simply put, limit your options since you have to deal with them or take damage while they also give Samus a window to perform an action. They are more than just weak camping tools.

6. She has good spacing tools. Her ftilt is pretty long and her zair is multiple character lenghts long. Her bair has a decent hitbox as well.

7. She only has a slight disadvantage against Snake and Marth, and an even matchup against ROB. Meta Knight, Game & Watch, Olimar, DDD, and Falco (if your are on Final Destination at least) are the only characters who completely shut her down which is better than what a lot of low/bottom tiers can say. Matchup wise, she is better off than Ike, Bowser, Jiggly, Link, CF, and Ganon without question.

8. Tournament results for low tier characters in particular are too unstable to be relevant in tier debate.

Samus at present time is low tier, NOT BOTTOM!!!


Edit: At DanGR, how exactly good or bad are her matchups anyway? They need to be decent if she is to be in mid tier like you say.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

Jiggly IS underrated, and not a little bit. I mean, geez, why not put a character with an awesome aerial game, low-percentage killer-combo, awesome recovery, great edgeguarding and stuff like that sometimes even BELOW falcon ._.

But I'm just not gonna bother. If you guys would at least do your research you'd probably come to the conclusion that there's a huge gap between Jiggly and stuff like Falcon, but with like nobody decent actually maining her, except that one rollout-spammer who somehow manages to win stuff, I don't blame your guys.

 

[DanGR]

Edit: At DanGR, how exactly good or bad are her matchups anyway? They need to be decent if she is to be in mid tier like you say.

They're decent, trust me. Better than most bottom/low tier character's.

 

[ROOOOY!]

She does have a good recovery. A lot of the percieved bad characters have good recoveries though, her, Jiggz and Sonic to name a few. She is heavy, but with being floaty and her Dair being slow and having low range, you'll have to time Down B very well to avoid ceiling kills. Zair is a great move I'll agree, Samus' most useful move definately.
I disagree with what you're saying about some of those match ups though. I don't consider ROB - Samus neutral, but this isn't the place.
Some characters have got to be down there though, and in my opinion Samus is one of them, and I know the capabilities of percieved low/bottom tier characters because I use them all bar one or two quite equally.

 

[Deathcarter]

She does have a good recovery. A lot of the percieved bad characters have good recoveries though, her, Jiggz and Sonic to name a few. She is heavy, but with being floaty and her Dair being slow and having low range, you'll have to time Down B very well to avoid ceiling kills. Zair is a great move I'll agree, Samus' most useful move definately.
I disagree with what you're saying about some of those match ups though. I don't consider ROB - Samus neutral, but this isn't the place.
Some characters have got to be down there though, and in my opinion Samus is one of them, and I know the capabilities of percieved low/bottom tier characters because I use them all bar one or two quite equally.

I do agree with you that she is down near the bottom, I am just trying to convince people that she is not bottom tier or even the bottom 7. She is a good character, it is just that she has nothing broken about her unlike every one of the higher ups and several of the mid tiers.


Samus and Jigglypuff REALLY need an accurate matchup listing ESPECIALLY in their own boards.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

But everything else is ballz, even Sakurai stated that she doesn't have any other particular strenghts. One would assume that her air game should be SUPERIOR since she is slightly inferior to most of the cast in about every other aspect.

Quoting the Dojo: "Jigglypuff has neither a long reach nor a lot of power to its attacks. On top of that, it’s not a particularly fast runner and is extremely easy to KO because of how light it is.

At a glance, Jigglypuff seems like an utterly flawed character, but the truth is that Jigglypuff has a few abilities that balance things out, like its superior midair capabilities.

On top of the ability to jump five consecutive times in the air, Jigglypuff’s midair acceleration and top speed are in a class by themselves, making Jigglypuff the ultimate midair brawler."

Had only this been the truth, then she would probably have been viable, but in reality there are many characters that have much better airgame than jigglypuff while still not being super light or weak. An exelent example is Luigi, from what I have heard has better aerial game than jigglypuff, stronger smashes, longer reach and weights more.

Jigglypuff just have too many flaws and too few strengths to be considered much better than worst, rivaled only by the Captain.

The person saying this also thought tripping was a rational idea >.< Jigglypuff's air game rivals Luigi's or is better. Dair racks up damage, combos into rest, and can also be used for wall of pain. Fair KO's nicely, and WoP's with bair and nair. Uair has awful range, but juggles well. Pound has amazing priority and a very long lasting hitbox.Jiggly does have a god awfull ground game, but her smashes work. They can all KO, but are slow. D and F smash all send horizantally, D sending you along the ground. You can boost smash U. But theyre still only ok. Her tilts do suck flat out though. And her main form of KO's are gimps and low % kills, as rest can ko from about 80% and rollout can ko light-med weights fro 65%

 

[Kiwikomix]

Jiggz' problem is relativity.
What? Good air game? Doesn't matter as much, because everyone has a good air game now.
What? Good recovery? Doesn't matter as much, because everyone has a good recovery now.
And, with the exception of bair, she really doesn't have that much range now. Not to mention her complete lack of a ground game and her inabilty to deal with projectile spams very well.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Anyone that still thinks Samus is going to be low tier should watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miP2_tT6-4U#

And of course Yoshi is going to be lower. Not because hes a bad character, but because hes an advanced one and people prefer EZ mode characters like Marth.

 

[Guilhe]

Maybe not Ike or Peach, but Ike is most certainly under crappy yoshi.

This is why Ike is low/bottom http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TgWB28BKPd8

Why? Because that guy sucks at playing Brawl? The reasons he lost the match are much beyond the character he was using: He tries to dash attack a fallen opponent, defends himself against Bowser`s flames by ducking (?!?), gets sandbag`d by most of Bowser`s aerial attacks, goes all out offence in a hard matchup and in a game that favors defensive players, and uses Eruption twice as some sort of edge guarding attempt. Face it, he is a noob.

And Ike outranges, has greater priority and isn’t much slower than Yoshi who, by the other hand, can’t kill, can’t combo and can’t even attack right out of his shield, like any other character in the game.

Ike = GARBAGE

Sorry, I would have to say high of bottom tier or bottom of low tier

Ike is SLOW, has SLOW attacks, 1 thing he has over many [I use the term loosely] characters is range - and one thing he has for sure over everyone is PURE POWER

I love Ike to death but he just has too many disadvantages.

I do give Ike: huge priority and reach - Super Armor can be used to an advantage,
not all his attacks are slow the fastest ones are; A Jab, U-air, B-air, maybe the N-air, and side-B

His recovery is really one sided - it's either vertical or horizontal your choice...lolz

He actually can crush everyone on Bottom Tier IMO except Sonic - I think he deserves bottom of Low Tier

Would someone like to disagree?

His most applicable moves are the jab, F and U tilt, Nair, Fair, Bair and grab. Very limited, I concede. But they all can kill by their own, and advanced players can use his aerials and Aether with great efficiency for gimping recoveries. Playing with Sonic as any of Ike’s moves has greater priority than Sonic’s special attacks, Sonic’s set of moves are very limited (more than Ike in my opinion), he doesn’t cause much damage, he can’t KO and he is light weight. I recognize that his edge guard is especially lethal against Ike and he has great recovery though. I Ike play defensively, it is very hard for Sonic to set up an approach. But that annoying” You’re too slow” can make anyone go offensive against this annoying *******.

 

[Mmac]

And Ike outranges, has greater priority and isn’t much slower than Yoshi who, by the other hand, can’t kill, can’t combo and can’t even attack right out of his shield, like any other character in the game.

Well it depends on what attacks you're talking about. If you mean his Jab and his Bair, than yes, he's just as fast as Yoshi, because they're instant, just like a majority of Yoshi's attacks. Ike is nowhere close to overall attack speed than Ike. Sorry, but he is pretty slow.

While I admit that Yoshi has some problems Killing, he doesn't really have that much problems as you might suspect. Then again, you're using a Character that is probably the best killer in the game, and comparing it to that.

And Yoshi can combo, and can combo actually quite well.

And honestly, who attacks out of a shield? Everyone shield grabs because they usually can't do a Kill attack in time (Unless you're MetaKnight). Plus mostly everyone spotdodges attacks now, and attack out of those, which Yoshi CAN do!

 

[Browny]

And honestly, who attacks out of a shield?

DK, G&W, Link, Lucas, marth, MK, Ness, Pikachu, ROB (...), snake, wario, zelda

all have very powerful options out of shield

 

[Falconv1.0]

Anyone that still thinks Samus is going to be low tier should watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miP2_tT6-4U#

And of course Yoshi is going to be lower. Not because hes a bad character, but because hes an advanced one and people prefer EZ mode characters like Marth.

Yeah, that's why Fox and Falco were at the top of the Melee tier list, because they were so ****ing easy to pick up and learn. Are you kidding me?


lurk moar noob

 

[Yaya]

Yeah, everybody can just pick up a controller and start Waveshining, SHLing, or Pillaring -.-

 

[Mmac]

DK, G&W, Link, Lucas, marth, MK, Ness, Pikachu, ROB (...), snake, wario, zelda

all have very powerful options out of shield

So basically anyone with fast smashes or Snakes broken tilts?

Wait, Since when did Ness had a good out of shield game?

 

[GoForkUrself]

Ness can grab out of shield and has ownage throws lol :D
Seriously, Ike was my original main, and my best friend's main is Yoshi. Ike isn't my best character anymore, but I still use him, and I love fighting my friend's Yoshi in a nice even battle. I'd say they are both even. Just give it time. Ike is too **** easy to use, so of course he gets better tourney placement, cuz many use him, and some must accidentally win.

 

[Mmac]

They do have very powerful options out of the shield. One of my favorites is grab. I use it with all of them out of their shields.

I see, but do they have a very awesome Pivot Grab to a point where they don't need a super awesome Shield Grab Game?

Ness can grab out of shield and has ownage throws lol :D

Oh yeah! I always forget about his stupid Bthrow -_ -

Seriously, Ike was my original main, and my best friend's main is Yoshi. Ike isn't my best character anymore, but I still use him, and I love fighting my friend's Yoshi in a nice even battle. I'd say they are both even. Just give it time. Ike is too **** easy to use, so of course he gets better tourney placement, cuz many use him, and some must accidentally win.

Well Ike and Yoshi are even matchups (Stupid Jabs - _-), so that is maybe why. Although it is true that Ike is much easier to use than Yoshi

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I see, but do they have a very awesome Pivot Grab to a point where they don't need a super awesome Shield Grab Game?

LMAO.

Metaknight and Shuttle Loop > Super Dee Duper Pivot Grab, Mmac.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Mmac]

LMAO.

Metaknight and Shuttle Loop > Super Dee Duper Pivot Grab, Mmac.

Smooth Criminal

You know what ironic that Yoshi can SNAG MetaKnight out of his Shuttle Loop :D

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You know what ironic that Yoshi can SNAG MetaKnight out of his Shuttle Loop :D

>______>

Can the expertise. You're making me look bad.

...

Besides! My strawman argument says that a good MK won't let that happen and will space properly.

Yeah.

Smooth Criminal

 

[adumbrodeus]

Anyone that still thinks Samus is going to be low tier should watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miP2_tT6-4U#

And of course Yoshi is going to be lower. Not because hes a bad character, but because hes an advanced one and people prefer EZ mode characters like Marth.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Marth is tough, if you're not EXTREMELY good at spacing, you're asking to be destroyed.

He only really has advantagious match-ups if you're good at spacing.

Yeah, if you're looking for easy characters try MK, saying Marth just makes you look ignorant.

 

[AlexX]

This is why Ike is low/bottom http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TgWB28BKPd8

That video is of the most famous Bowser player beating an Ike player nobody has ever heard of (and a clearly poor Ike at that... no good Ike will use Quick Draw over Aether when given the choice).

 

[crewster]

Soz

i think that toon link should be high not mid or at least high mid

soz for flaming u I didnt read the first post(

 

[Judge Judy]

Ugh...I could take a crack at a tier list but everytime I try to place people around high or mid I find that a lot of characters are very close to each other and tough to place.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

This is the list of Heroes.
Working to bring it up to list of the gods and then List of Penguin's
2.0

Top:

1. Meta Knight
2. Mr.Game and Watch

High:

3. Snake
4. Falco
5. ROB
6. DeDeDe
7. Marth
8. Pikachu
9. Pit
10. Olimar
11. Toon Link
12. Wario
13. Kirby
14. Lucario

Middle:

15. Zelda
16. Wolf
17. Zero suit Samus
18. Ice Climbers
19. Diddy
20. Fox
21. DK
22. Charizard
23. Lucas

Low:

24. Ness
25. Squirtle
26. Mario
27. Luigi
28. Yoshi
29. Peach
30. Link
31. Sheik
32. Ike
33. Bowser
34. Sonic
35. Ganondorf
36. Samus
37. Ivysaur

Bottom:

38. Jigglypuff
39.Craptorn Failcorn


Alright Version 2.0 of my list that no one really cares about >.>

Some people moved up, ice clmbers down.
Ivysaur way down.
Jiggs is still 2nd last, looking for someone to replace her with, but may not find that person... Ivy saur is starting to look like a candidate.
Luigi and mario up.
Snake is still High tier, love it, hate it, I dunno
Lucas is Mid, but Ness isn't.

This list is from what I think/have seen.

So EH!
1. Charizard doesn't get the rep he deserves.
2. Ganondorf...NEVER goes under Captain falcon...
3. Jiggs may move...not sure on her.
4. Game and watch is over Snake... I know omfg right? Well maybe they should be in the same tier.... maybe they should both be High and leave metaknight to rot in top tier on his lonesome.
5. I know DK right 0_o!?...nah Dk may move up but eh... eh...
6. Sonic and Samus may move.
7. Zamus is under inspection!
8. Also this list needs to look more at Luigi >.> he's probably under rep'd on this

but still
My list, my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt and a pack of skittles.

 

[istudying]

Is that list for real?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Is that list for real?

It is now.

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

You should really stop placing each pokemon of the pokemon trainer individually. Switching is essentual with him so playing each one as an idividual is impossible.

Mario and Luigi both seem a little low and ZSS seems a little too high.

 

[Snail]

List of Heroes

Pit is still way too high in my opinion :/ And DK is too low.

 

[AfroThunder396]

I think Mario has the potential to move significantly higher. FLUDD and his Cape give him an above average gimping game. His Fireball is a decent projectile and SH fireball gives him a good approach strategy for most characters. He has several attacks for that lead to juggling as do his grabs. Mario is a solid all-around character who can adapt to many situations. As time goes on and more Mario mains appear I can see him moving up significantly. For now he's middle of low tier but I can see him eventually being on par with mid tier characters like Fox, Diddy, or Pit.

Thoughts?

 

[Snail]

I think Mario has the potential to move significantly higher. FLUDD and his Cape give him an above average gimping game. His Fireball is a decent projectile and SH fireball gives him a good approach strategy for most characters. He has several attacks for that lead to juggling as do his grabs. Mario is a solid all-around character who can adapt to many situations. As time goes on and more Mario mains appear I can see him moving up significantly. For now he's middle of low tier but I can see him eventually being on par with mid tier characters like Fox, Diddy, or Pit.

Thoughts?

Wouldn't surprise me. He hasn't really got any big weaknesses, except that very few people play him.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Wouldn't surprise me. He hasn't really got any big weaknesses, except that very few people play him.

And the fact his recovery is balls is a pretty big reason why. Seriously, almost every time I've gotten a good mario off stage, he was almost always ****ed right from the get go.

 

[Kiwikomix]

No Mario weaknesses? Come on. Every character has weaknesses.
Mario has limited range and only average priority on most of his attacks.
Fireballs are one of the worst projectiles in the game, given their awful range, and he only uses them to approach (which is pointless, given that they get pinged so easily).
Recovery sucks. He can't really be easily gimped, since he has so many defensive options while recovering, but he's one of the few characters that can't always recover from a near-death blow.
Beyond that, he's built to be a character with few weaknesses, but he doesn't really have that many strengths either. If anything, he'll end up in mid, but he really isn't that average this time around.

 

[Grunt]

If mario didn't have a weakness, he'd be almost as good as Snake and MK. the second you have a weakness, you're low tier.

 

[Snail]

And the fact his recovery is balls is a pretty big reason why. Seriously, almost every time I've gotten a good mario off stage, he was almost always ****ed right from the get go.

Well, I play Olimar. Any recovery seems great to me... so that's probably why I overlooked that. XD

Any character has weaknesses. The point is, Snake and MK's strengths far outweigh theirs, while Mario doesn't really have big strengths to make up for whatever weaknesses he may have.

Anyway, the creators of this game always seem to try to make Mario the "average" character. He's not very good, but he doesn't suck either imo.

 

[ROOOOY!]

His most applicable moves are the jab, F and U tilt, Nair, Fair, Bair and grab. Very limited, I concede. But they all can kill by their own, and advanced players can use his aerials and Aether with great efficiency for gimping recoveries. Playing with Sonic as any of Ike’s moves has greater priority than Sonic’s special attacks, Sonic’s set of moves are very limited (more than Ike in my opinion), he doesn’t cause much damage, he can’t KO and he is light weight. I recognize that his edge guard is especially lethal against Ike and he has great recovery though. I Ike play defensively, it is very hard for Sonic to set up an approach. But that annoying” You’re too slow” can make anyone go offensive against this annoying *******.

Lol. Ike is one of Sonic's easiest match-ups. No one can contest that.

 

[BBQ°]

10caterters.