Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[FuLLBLeeD]

Samus is going to be around mid tier again. Just like in melee.

 

[Pieisthebest]

10caterters.

Priceless.

 

[BBQ°]

Samus is going to be around mid tier again. Just like in melee.

No.

Top of low tier at best.

In Melee, Samus had a lot of cool techs, had a GREAT projectile game, never died, and had one of the best recoveries.

In Brawl, Samus doesn't have any *useful* techs (or are undiscovered), her projectile game got a serious nerf, especially since you can't full hop double super missle + super missle and charged shot doesn't have the knockback they did before. Samus is still pretty hard to kill in this game too, but not as badly as Samus in Melee. Samus still has bomb recovery, but her Z-air can't grab onto walls, only edges, making her vertical recovery not as good.

Samus does have a few good things going for her, but other characters are just better than her.

 

[Yaya]

Ivy is FAR Too low.

Ivy has some wicked aerials, two Godly Smashes, Bullet Seed (I got a 72 on Ganny) sure, easily gimped but who else fits that description.

Olimar.

Ivy, poor girl, she's so underrated


That was in response to Chrono's Tier List

 

[TheLake]

Yay! More ivy love!

Bullet seed is the best freakin attack in the game! Bump that gal up a notch!

 

[AlexX]

Lol. Ike is one of Sonic's easiest match-ups. No one can contest that.

EVERY character considers Ike their easiest matchup, including Jigglypuff and Ganondorf. That doesn't make it true.

Sonic has a ton of speed, but Ike's superior range, priority, and power give a good edge. The fact most of his attacks cover most of the area around his body doesn't help Sonic's situation, either.

EDIT:

Bullet seed is the best freakin attack in the game! Bump that gal up a notch!

People keep referring to Ivysaur as a female and I can't figure out why... Did I miss something that tells us the gender for each of the pokemon?

 

[Yaya]

Ivy sounds like a girl name.

Simple as that

 

[Mr.Victory07]

People keep referring to Ivysaur as a female and I can't figure out why... Did I miss something that tells us the gender for each of the pokemon?

I'm trying to figure this one out too
Actually, Ivysaur has a 75% of being a male or something like that

 

[Mmac]

I'm trying to figure this one out too
Actually, Ivysaur has a 75% of being a male or something like that

I dunno, I heard that her Japanese Voice Actor is Female. So.... yeah....

 

[Nestec]

I have to agree on the Jigglypuff deal. I've never played against a human while using her, but WoP kills are just way too easy. I'm talking Metaknight-edgeguarding-easy.

And Fair has so much knockback now, and can easily kill at high percentages.

I'm saying at least Low for her. I don't think she should placed anywhere near Rick Wheeler. >_<

 

[Yukiwarashi]

EVERY character considers Ike their easiest matchup, including Jigglypuff and Ganondorf. That doesn't make it true.

Sonic has a ton of speed, but Ike's superior range, priority, and power give a good edge. The fact most of his attacks cover most of the area around his body doesn't help Sonic's situation, either.

EDIT:
People keep referring to Ivysaur as a female and I can't figure out why... Did I miss something that tells us the gender for each of the pokemon?

Ivysaur is female in the Japanese version.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ivysaur is female in the Japanese version.

VOICED by a female....

Not female.

 

[What?]

Ike: Has great anti-air game. I think this is understated. His Up Air and Sliding Up Smash can dominate. Plus his Aether edge guard spike is pretty impressive.

Also, Ike's Nair serves as a nice defense against tiny, aggressive characters.

Pokemon Trainer: At first when I read that he should not be separated into three different characters I agreed. But I've been thinking that since he's a transforming character like Zelda and Sheik, he deserves three different spots.

The fact that the Pokemon changes after each stock should be considered when dictating their tier spots.

Lizardmon -> Squirtle = Good!
Squirtle -> Ivysaur = Bad.
Ivysaur -> Lizardmon = Mm?

 

[Yaya]

What?, in repsonse to your Pokemon Trainer comment.

Zelda and Shiek's Transformation are not Required, Pokemon Trainer's switches, however, are essential to his metagame.

 

[ROOOOY!]

EVERY character considers Ike their easiest matchup, including Jigglypuff and Ganondorf. That doesn't make it true.

Sonic has a ton of speed, but Ike's superior range, priority, and power give a good edge. The fact most of his attacks cover most of the area around his body doesn't help Sonic's situation, either.

EDIT:
People keep referring to Ivysaur as a female and I can't figure out why... Did I miss something that tells us the gender for each of the pokemon?

Of course! The most punishable character in the game (bar Ganon) has a good edge against the character possibly best at punishing. I'll carry on being ignorant.
The fact that when Ike's offstage if Sonic knows what he's doing it's all over also contributes to the ****.

I'd justify more but I can't be bothered. It's painfully obvious as it is.

 

[_Phloat_]

I think we should discuss the placement of the characters that have been discussed in the weekly character thread. Too many characters are being discussed atm, and its just people saying their main owns someone elses (not saying they aren't right half the time, but...)

Then we could have a system, and then not have to argue on what characters to debate as we have an "official" word.

 

[Snail]

I think we should discuss the placement of the characters that have been discussed in the weekly character thread. Too many characters are being discussed atm, and its just people saying their main owns someone elses (not saying they aren't right half the time, but...)

Then we could have a system, and then not have to argue on what characters to debate as we have an "official" word.

It's a good idea, but we can't really control it. If people want to yell how great their main is, we can't stop them :/

 

[AlexX]

Of course! The most punishable character in the game (bar Ganon) has a good edge against the character possibly best at punishing.

Sonic isn't nearly as good at punishing as the upper-tiers, and Ike is arguably a better punisher than he is. A good Ike will make Sonic take a good amount of damage upon making any mistake (made better by the fact Ike has superior priority), and because Sonic is light he has to really be afraid once he gets around the 60-70% mark since Ike can take care of him with a good f-tilt or Eruption by then (or even a b-air if it's still fresh). You could say he'll never get hit by those moves, but f-tilt isn't too slow and eruption has SA frames to take advantage of.

The fact that when Ike's offstage if Sonic knows what he's doing it's all over also contributes to the ****.

Clearly you've never seen a good Ike offstage. Ike's not the best at offstage combat, but he's still fully capable of gimping the hedgehog if he gets a good d-air on him. For recovery Sonic has problems gimping Aether properly (which is what all good Ikes will be using).

I'd justify more but I can't be bothered. It's painfully obvious as it is.

Please, continue. All I see from your arguments is that you've never seen a good Ike.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Pit is still way too high in my opinion :/ And DK is too low.

Pit's Mirror Shield returns projectiles, stops some recoveries, has an SA frame, can turn people around, And it's purty.

The Angel ring can reflect projectiles and at the same time cause the needed damage like a reflector.

Arrows can gimp, and they can gimp quite nicely considering their ability to be controlled.
There are times when people are at that near death area and would be able to recover yet pit's arrows knock them back enough that the recovery fails.
This doesn't work for everyone because many people's projectiles are linear and thus much easier to avoid.

Pit's not bad at all, theres really not that much more room for him to move down.

_____
What may be odd to some of you
is the idea of simply having 1 character in the bottom tier
And everyone else sorted into the other tiers.

the gap between most low tier and bottom tier characters isn't big. If Captain Falcon gets better/something discovered for him, might as well get rid of Low tier All together.

 

[GoForkUrself]

Characters from the weekly character thread. Note: This tier list is based on opinions and not strictly tournament placement. As much as I try to use all characters and their AT's in an effort to have a better understanding of them, I obviously don't know them all as well as you guys, so opinions for adjustments are welcome. I'll try to keep this as updated as possible, and I'll add the newest weekly character each week as well.

Changes: Moved Pikachu to High, and moved ROB to Higher
Now order makes a difference on who is higher and lower.

Things I am thinking about involving this list:
Tudor's Samus is mightily impressive, but should she really be above Link and Shiek because of that?

Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake


Higher:
Mr.Game and Watch
DeDeDe
Marth
R.O.B.


High:
Falco
Pikachu


Middle:
Diddy
Wolf
Toon Link

Low:
Samus
Link
Sheik


Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

I'll adjust this as people make convincing arguments to change it.

 

[Snail]

Pit's Mirror Shield returns projectiles, stops some recoveries, has an SA frame, can turn people around, And it's purty.

The Angel ring can reflect projectiles and at the same time cause the needed damage like a reflector.

Arrows can gimp, and they can gimp quite nicely considering their ability to be controlled.
There are times when people are at that near death area and would be able to recover yet pit's arrows knock them back enough that the recovery fails.
This doesn't work for everyone because many people's projectiles are linear and thus much easier to avoid.

Pit's not bad at all, theres really not that much more room for him to move down.

Move DK below Wario and Pit below DK. That's what I'd do. He doesn't really belong with King Dedede, G&W, Marth, ROB and Falco in my opinion. :/

 

[Pieisthebest]

Characters from the weekly character thread. Note: This tier list is based on opinions and not strictly tournament placement. Also order of characters in their respective tier does not make a difference on how good they are so don't say that MK is better than Snake and should be first, as I am only saying they are top tier and not which one is better. As much as I try to use all characters and their AT's in an effort to have a better understanding of them, I obviously don't know them all as well as you guys, so opinions for adjustments are welcome. I'll try to keep this as updated as possible, and I'll add the newest weekly character each week as well.

Things I am thinking about involving this list:
Does Ganon need to join CF at the bottom? I use Ganon as my backup for MK(for fighting Snakes and DK's) but he might need to go to the bottom anyway.
Does Marth's poor recovery and punishable attacks put him in High tier instead of Higher? I feel like he gets good placings more from being overused than from being a great character.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

Higher:
Mr.Game and Watch
DeDeDe
Marth


High:
Falco
ROB


Middle:
Wolf
Diddy
Pikachu
Toon Link

Low:
Link
Sheik
Ganondorf
Samus

Bottom:
Captain Falcon

I'll adjust this as people make convincing arguments to change it.

Its pretty much agreed that Falco and ROB are high tier, with Marth/DDD/G&W

 

[GoForkUrself]

I agree with snail. Wario->DK->Pit
Of course none of those characters are in the weekly character thread, so I don't get to place them in my slow paced tier list. Anyway, what changes do I need to make on mine?

Its pretty much agreed that Falco and ROB are high tier, with Marth/DDD/G&W

Had I been restricted to only 5 tiers(meaning only high tier, and not high and higher), I would have put them with DDD GW and Marth rather than the mid tier.
Unlike most people though, I am doing a tier list with Higher, and High, just like the old school melee tier list since there are so many characters. I feel that falco's and especially ROB's are used a lot, but they just haven't been getting enough wins, as their bad matchups really crush them.

If I use 5 tiers, all I do is say by putting characters in High is that they are better than average, but they are worse than Snake and MK. That honestly says nothing about a character, since many characters fit that description.

 

[Snail]

I agree with snail. Wario->DK->Pit
Of course none of those characters are in the weekly character thread, so I don't get to place them in my slow paced tier list. Anyway, what changes do I need to make on mine?

^^ Thanks!

ROB and Falco should be in Higher, in my opinion. And I think the tier is called upper, not higher, but that's just some detail.

 

[Grunt]

G/W > D3 > ROB > Marth > Falco
All in high/higher.

 

[Judge Judy]

DK is easily juggled, has a hard time against anyone with a decent spammable projectile, and his vertical recovery is practially non-existant. DK does have range, power, priority, and his atks aren't too laggy wihch gives him a good ground game and a decent air game. DK in many ways is like an improved version of Ike.

Ike is just way too easy XD

 

[MysticKenji]

For recovery Sonic has problems gimping Aether properly (which is what all good Ikes will be using).

run off stage -> spring

 

[Mr.Charisma]

MK should be over Snake, Pika is normally top of middle or low high

 

[Snail]

DK is easily juggled, has a hard time against anyone with a decent spammable projectile, and his vertical recovery is practially non-existant. DK does have range, power, priority, and his atks aren't too laggy wihch gives him a good ground game and a decent air game. DK in many ways is like an improved version of Ike.

Ike is just way too easy XD

DK has favourable matchups against Snake AND MK. That alone makes him good enough for high tier. Somewhere around Olimar, Wario, Pikachu, IC and Pit I guess. Maybe TL too, but he has to prove himself first.

 

[GoForkUrself]

I know it's called upper, but I disagree with that term. If I tell 20 people that has no knowledge of tier lists the terms "Bottom, middle, High, low, top and upper" and have them organize from best to worst, I guarantee that a good portion of them would say "top, high, upper, middle, low, bottom." By using the term higher, it is very clear that it is higher than high.
Anyway that is my reasoning why I say higher instead of upper.
If I put everyone in higher, then that leaves no one for high lol.

 

[Snail]

I know it's called upper, but I disagree with that term. If I tell 20 people that has no knowledge of tier lists the terms "Bottom, middle, High, low, top and upper" and have them organize from best to worst, I guarantee that a good portion of them would say "top, high, upper, middle, low, bottom." By using the term higher, it is very clear that it is higher than high.
Anyway that is my reasoning why I say higher instead of upper.
If I put everyone in higher, then that leaves no one for high lol.

No, no xD I meant like this.

Top:

Snake
MK

Higher:

G&W
King Dedede
ROB
Marth
Falco

High:

Olimar/Wario
Wario/Olimar
DK
Pit
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Toon Link

Just an example but you get what I mean (:

 

[GoForkUrself]

Well I moved ROB up to higher and moved Pikachu up to high. I might have to move Falco up as well.
As more characters are added to the list, it will be easier to figure out which ones need to go where. Once we can get some general agreement on who belongs in which tier, maybe we can have some fun making some higher or lower than others.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic isn't nearly as good at punishing as the upper-tiers, and Ike is arguably a better punisher than he is. A good Ike will make Sonic take a good amount of damage upon making any mistake (made better by the fact Ike has superior priority), and because Sonic is light he has to really be afraid once he gets around the 60-70% mark since Ike can take care of him with a good f-tilt or Eruption by then (or even a b-air if it's still fresh). You could say he'll never get hit by those moves, but f-tilt isn't too slow and eruption has SA frames to take advantage of.

Clearly you've never seen a good Ike offstage. Ike's not the best at offstage combat, but he's still fully capable of gimping the hedgehog if he gets a good d-air on him. For recovery Sonic has problems gimping Aether properly (which is what all good Ikes will be using).

Please, continue. All I see from your arguments is that you've never seen a good Ike.

I'd say being able to punish Ganon's jab from 3/4's of FD away and things like that constitutes as having a decent punishment game. Sonic thrives on this sorta thing >.>
A good Sonic won't get punished by Ike either. Invincibility frames on his Spring help to get away.
I will say Sonic shouldn't be getting hit by those moves, but not because 'OMG HE SO FAST IKE SO SLOW.' F-tilt is actually pretty slow, the start-up lag not being as bad as the cooldown lag. What helps avoid this is that all of Sonic's approaches can be cancelled. Side B can be shield cancelled, and all the other approaches are commonly known as to how to cancel them. With this it's easy to bait out an attack with a fair bit of ending lag such as f-tilt, cancel your Spin Dash or whatever and run in for a grab or whatever takes your fancy.
You've said yourself that Ike isn't the best at offstage combat, but it's more that his recovery is really easy to gimp.
Ike below the edge + Spring = Death. Or you could Dair him and spring back up or whatever but it's more risky.
Ike shouldn't be able to gimp Sonic because Sonic has got more ways of recovering then Ike has. Homing Attack (kinda situational), Spindash (for horizontal recovery moreso) and spring. Mixing these up appropriately should keep them guessing.

There aren't a lot of reasons, it's just a lot of the reasons are quite major. Being easily gimped doesn't help. Baiting out Ike's attacks again is easy because of cancellable approaches, and Sonic CAN punish Ike.
Something tells me you've never actually played a good Sonic, though if I'm honest they're few and far between.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Just a little comment.

Sonic should never be hit by Ike's dair off stage. Sonic can easily recover above Ike in almost all situations, and even if he's forced to up B, he's got a lot of leeway to do so (he could just wait for the dair to end, or up B before it starts).

Also, Sonic will not die from Ike's f-tilt until well above 100%. Sonic is also a much better punisher than Ike, considering Sonic can you know...combo. If I ever land a down B or side B, I get a free aerial and a great position (under them). You eat 20% from just the side B->fair, but then you have to try to get down too, but have to deal with my high priority uair.

And, like everyone's been saying, all Sonic has to do to gimp Ike is leave a spring over the ledge. No aether for you and a nice, low trajectory.

 

[GoForkUrself]

Ike and Sonic are both low tier lol. In a battle between a good Ike and a good Sonic, the Sonic should never get gimped. It still can be an even battle possibly, but I would lean toward Sonic, and this is from an original Ike main.
However, eventhough Sonic's can beat up Ike's pretty well, Ike is still probably going to be a higher tier than Sonic. It is important to remember that a matchup between characters is not a good way to determine rankings. DK is good against Snake, but DK is not top tier, but Snake is.

 

[ROOOOY!]

So...
Sonic has better match-ups than Ike (most probably).
Sonic has better tournament results.
They're the two main factors on a tier list.
And Ike's gonna be higher?

I give up >.>

 

[Yukiwarashi]

VOICED by a female....

Not female.

Seeing as how her Japanese voice matches that of May's female Bulbasaur from the anime, I'm going to call her female. =/

 

[Dark Sonic]

So...
Sonic has better match-ups than Ike (most probably).
Sonic has better tournament results.
They're the two main factors on a tier list.
And Ike's gonna be higher?

I give up >.>

^^This.

It's not just Sonic having an advantage on Ike, it's Sonic being a better character in general. He's harder to kill, racks damage faster, edgeguards better, approaches better, escapes better (up B is basically a substitution), and just has more control over a match than Ike can ever hope for. Yes Ike has a ton of range and kills quickly, but his longer ranged attacks are just too slow, while his jab (one of his best attacks IMO) is short ranged. If you can outrange his jab and out speed his fair and nair, then you're pretty much set for the whole match. At that point you can easily force Ike to approach, which is not exactly his strong point.

While you can also force Sonic to approach since he has no projectile, he has much better approach options, as well as retreat options. Sonic is never 100% commited with his approaches, since he has various ways of canceling them (shield canceling and jump canceling).

 

[SmashBrother2008]

When can we expect a finalized tier list?

 

[Mr.Charisma]

once you give up all hope of ever seeing one