Official BBR Tier List v7

[zmx]

I'm well aware of your sarcam but all the same, Marth's position even now at 7th has always been questionable considering until now, he's never really done well at stacked nationals whereas all the characters close to him certainly have. I was just throwing that out there.

I like how everyone's saying "ZSS won Apex"

But there's no "Salem won Apex"

I think it definitely proves that she's stronger than everyone thought, but ffs give the man some credit, and not just his character or "people not experienced in the match-up".

Salem had never won a tournament before, and he'd never beaten mew2king before this tournament.

Also this. We are often so obsessed with arbitrary tier lists and matchup ratios that we forget after a certain point, it really is just the players themselves.

To suggest ZSS is secretly god tier or whatever does take quite a bit away from Salem's incredible play which really isn't fair.
The tournament had all the best ZSS players and yet, only Salem got a spectacular placing (closest after that was NR at 25th). That clearly suggests it has more to do with Salem.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's only true if you assume ZSS isn't a good character. It's also possible that Salem is better. Also assuming Salem is better doesn't necessarily also mean assumign Salem has somehow exceeded the character's limits.

Salem as the best ZSS is the benchmark. Period.

You also don't take away from M2K's acheivements by acknowledging his character as top tier right?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

now that there's no players to carry lucario, can he be borderline/mid tier now? :D

His top players quitting = Lucario goes down?

...what?

That said APEX showed that it is possible to win/do well with anyone not at the top and Marth isn't garbage with results for once, I will never get the absurd hate Marth gets around her. And major props to Salem for winning it all.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

At best, I'd put ZSS above Snake/Falco (6th). At worst, one spot below Pika. No matter what she should be top tier. Salem has proved that ZSS is a great character.

SFP's avi killed me.

Idk about that, Salem proved he is an amazing player. ZSS is like the Ness/Sonic/Ike of high tiers. She has the tools to compete with top lvl characters and her mobility/moveset give her the ability to capitalize. I doubt she is 6th best.

 

[SoulPech]

That said APEX showed that it is possible to win/do well with anyone not at the top and Marth isn't garbage with results for once, I will never get the absurd hate Marth gets around her. And major props to Salem for winning it all.

I'll be taking Apex with Puff next year.

 

[Juushichi]

Marth gets to be relevent, yay.

Still can't get top 5 at a national, let's talk about how amazing he is though.

Salem *****. ZSS, she's alright though. At least she's better than Wario. Pikachu though? Haha, no. Don't you know ZSS only has like one relevant main?

This **** doesn't write itself.

 

[Naridax]

You also don't take away from M2K's acheivements by acknowledging his character as top tier right?

People take away from the achievements of MK players the most.

Don't know how many times we've all heard, "They only won because of MK."

 

[pidgezero_one]

Which isn't an entirely unfair assessment. A good player is going to be aided by the tools at their disposal. That doesn't mean it's "taking away" from someone's achievements to suggest their character is better than we thought.

Otherwise, there wouldnt even be a tier list

 

[DMG]

MK STEALS WINS AND MONEY AND TAKES CANDY FROM BABIES

Tyrant of the Air, Fighting Game Crutch of the Century

 

[zmx]

Marth gets to be relevent, yay.

Still can't get top 5 at a national, let's talk about how amazing he is though.

I'm pretty sure MikeNeko got 5th place. Not sure if this was sarcasm.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth gets to be relevent, yay.

Still can't get top 5 at a national, let's talk about how amazing he is though.

Salem *****. ZSS, she's alright though. At least she's better than Wario. Pikachu though? Haha, no. Don't you know ZSS only has like one relevant main?

This **** doesn't write itself.

THIS holy mother of god

 

[hell-dew]

I think the thing is about Salem is that he is the first time we have seen a ZSS at that level of play. Now that the road has been walked now the question is will other people learn her character to the point where she can more consistantly keep up? or will she be a gimick and fall back to obscurity?.

IMO i feel like Salem is basically the most Ideal ZSS we have been able to see and im wondering how much further can she go and can players player her at that highest level of skill constantly honestly only time will tell. i do feel like ZSS does have the tools though to be higher on the tier list. and as someone else pointed out. shes a great character with the least amount of people using her. Thus yeah your gonna have more other characters take higher spots.

and IMO marth put out a damn respectable performance in this tourney. Mr R and Mikeneko both put some fantastic performances out with them. not to mention Mikeneko almost had salem to he was stupidly close (IMO my favorite match of Apex my god that was hype).

i am sad though at the lack of pikachus doing well at Apex though :/ same with Canada placement. We gotta start pushing our scene more but overall it Apex was a fantastic watch this year.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ruy's tier list based on many opinions!

Condensed version:
S: Meta Knight
A: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Marth, Wario, Ice Climbers,
B: Falco, Zero Suit Samus, Snake,
C: Lucario, Wolf, Pikachu, Toon Link
D: Peach, Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic, Pit
E: R.O.B., Kirby, Donkey Kong, Ike, Fox, Sheik, King Dedede,
F: Yoshi, Ness, Pokémon Trainer, Jigglypuff,
G: Link, Lucas, Mario, Samus, Captain Falcon
H: Zelda, Ganondorf, Sheilda, Luigi
I: Bowser,

 

[BSP]

I don't think it has been posted here yet, but just for convenience.

[collapse="Click here to see the results!"]1: Salem
2: Mew2King
3: Otori
4: Nairo
5: Anti
5: Mikeneko
7: Mr. R
7: Dabuz
9: Dojo
9: Zero
9: DEHF
9: 9B
13: ESAM
13: Rain
13: Ally
13: Vinnie
17: ADHD
17: Suinoko
17: Zinoto
17: Havok
17: Pwii
17: Kakera
17: Nakat
17: Tyrant
25: Seibrik
25: Bloodcross
25: Earth
25: Shaky
25: Atomsk
25: Denti
25: Leon
25: Nick Riddle [/collapse]

 

[PK Gaming]

Marth's a D tier character and he's getting two placements in top 8.

Shut up.

???

any truth to this(as in marth is like B-tier?) or this an inside joke?

 

[Steam]

@ryu- recently, I feel that lucario was mostly carried by trela who was just a ridiculously smart player, at this stage in the metagame I feel that lucario is very mediocre outside of cases like him.

also bowser isn't the worst character in the game... marth is definitely not 4th... pikachu > Lucario... wtf luigi... T_T

 

[Nike.]

LMAO Shaya.

It's a joke.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ryu- recently, I feel that lucario was mostly carried by trela who was just a ridiculously smart player, at this stage in the metagame I feel that lucario is very mediocre outside of cases like him.

If it was just Trela over the past years I'd agree, but it hasn't been the case. Someone has been up their with him, just recently with both June and Trela gone he lost his two biggest players.

also bowser isn't the worst character in the game... marth is definitely not 4th... pikachu > Lucario... wtf luigi... T_T

You know it to be true.

 

[MegurineLuka]

S Tier: Jigglypuff

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't think it has been posted here yet, but just for convenience.

[collapse="Click here to see the results!"]1: Salem
2: Mew2King
3: Otori
4: Nairo
5: Anti
5: Mikeneko
7: Mr. R
7: Dabuz
9: Dojo
9: Zero
9: DEHF
9: 9B
13: ESAM
13: Rain
13: Ally
13: Vinnie
17: ADHD
17: Suinoko
17: Zinoto
17: Havok
17: Pwii
17: Kakera
17: Nakat
17: Tyrant
25: Seibrik
25: Bloodcross
25: Earth
25: Shaky
25: Atomsk
25: Denti
25: Leon
25: Nick Riddle [/collapse]

What a poignant reminder of what character diversity (or lack thereof) looks like these days.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The two best players in my region are starting to think Puff is viable thanks to new **** I've been implementing

just you watch kids

 

[allshort17]

I don't understand it. People say that ZSS only has one good player and shouldn't really be move, but didn't Pika do the same thing? Sure, ESAM has constancy. However, he has had to second IC's for MU's. This never stopped Pika from moving up the tier list though. Also, let's not just erase Nick Riddle, the guy who got 3rd at an MLG major, just to prove a point that "ZSS has never done anything like this."

Over the years: Anther, PikaPika, and ESAM vs Nick Riddle, Quiksilver, and Salem.

Looking at all that's happened with both characters, I'd say they have similar histories.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Yeah maybe we should talk about marth considering he was tired for the second most placements in top 25 along with ice climbers. That is pretty darn impressive considering he out placed almost all the characters above him like snake, olimar, or diddy. Also people saying salem is an outlier, there are two zss's in top 25. Just as many as there are falcos and olimars and diddys. Its not salem was just a fluke up there by himself.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Uhh it is definitely not -2. -1 is a fine ratio for it. Tilt pressure is hard to deal with once it starts but it's also not a given. ZSS can keep MK out on the ground for a while and has amazing reset potential. She can basically say "I don't like where this is going" and leave at almost any time, which is what makes the match-up doable.

The reason M2K used a lot of nado and SL is because in his past dealings with ZSS players it worked, but Salem is different. That stuff doesn't work against him and he learned that. Next time it might go differently, but don't forget that M2K and Salem have played before in tournament and apparently train together.

Also, "ok, but this won't happen again?" Really? I mean, DEHF won Apex 2010 and hasn't won a big national or anything since, but no one said "this won't happen again" when he won. There is definitely a weird anti-ZSS bias running through the community, like, even when she does well (read: usually she does at least pretty well) it isn't good enough. I mean, Marth hasn't won a tournament like Apex, nor has Pikachu, etc. But if they did no one would bat an eye.

ZSS has a bad grab, sure. This means she suffers a bit when it comes to close range pressure and dealing with very defensive players. But it is more than made up for with her superior, ridiculous even, mobility and damage output. ZSS has damage output and kill-power comparable to Snake's, punishes second only to Ice Climbers, and mobility comparable to Sonic or Fox, if not better overall. Mobility is classically one of the hardest things to theorycraft because situations it is useful in aren't measurable in, like, frame data.


And the better blonde award goes to...

The better blond award goes to (Armada) . He won more money then salem~.

At best, I'd put ZSS above Snake/Falco (6th). At worst, one spot below Pika. No matter what she should be top tier. Salem has proved that ZSS is a great character.

SFP's avi killed me.

No. is not better then /.

She's deserving of top tier. Above Wario seems about right. Moving above Pikachu might be stretching it.

EDIT: Dangit Bobbie lol

should just move to High tier and above him into top tier. That's it.

Top Tier
SS:
S:
A:

High Tier
B:
C:

Mid Tier
D:
E:
Low Tier
F:
G:
H:

^Close enough. Just switch with in my list a month ago and bam.

 

[pidgezero_one]

why is pidgeot in H tier?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The two best players in my region are starting to think Puff is viable thanks to new **** I've been implementing

just you watch kids

Ledge stalling? Doesn't your region choose the MK ban over the LGL?

 

[ぱみゅ]

why is pidgeot in H tier?

below H, I guess it's I then....
Understandable, MK would **** him in the air, Pikachu has a huge advantage, has no real type advantage on Lucario, skiping spots to below, Squirtle is fast and hits first, Charizard wouldn't die, and even Zelda and Ganon have electric-type attacks.
It's almost like he wasn't made for Brawl. :/ Just like Ivysaur.

 

[Dnyce]

ZSS won apex, why can't we just admit she is upper god tier broken already? We already decided long ago there is no skill in this game

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ledge stalling? Doesn't your region choose the MK ban over the LGL?

We soft ban ledge stalling in the sense that it's boring, pointless to practice in excess because it is hard banned everywhere else and the players who are good enough to do it properly (as I've stressed a thousand times over; ledge camping is no more effective than camping on stage with a considerably worse risk:reward) can beat everyone without it.

So while we are allowed to do it, we don't. It is more of a style choice than "being scrubby" however, planking is overrated.

My recent developments are little things that add up (little things matter a lot for a glass canon character); consistently landing Rest when the opportunity is presented and pressuring with the threat of it (range and cost for error aside, it is a 1-frame KO move, after all). More intelligent option selection in her bait and punish game. Implementation of ftilt where effective. Abusing the incredible safety her mobility affords her when she isn't committing to offence (in other words, a mentality change that has made me more patient) - so safe is she that you can effectively gain information about even the most conservative player's style and circumvent her "problem" of being walled out by basic spacing moves (after all, every move is punishable if predicted, even if it's a momentum or positional punish rather than a damage one). Finally, refining her ground movement to become far less predictable and more efficient, using pivots, crouches, walking and dashes optimally.

At the moment I'm exploring using b-reversed pound and pivot b-reversed pound in lieu of standard pound/pivot pound to be less predictable; they feel safer during start-up too, but I think that's just my imagination.

Sorry if this came off super high-brow, I'm engrossed in "In Hell" at the moment, a story set in Victorian times.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

We soft ban ledge stalling in the sense that it's boring, pointless to practice in excess because it is hard banned everywhere else and the players who are good enough to do it properly (as I've stressed a thousand times over; ledge camping is no more effective than camping on stage with a considerably worse risk:reward) can beat everyone without it.

So while we are allowed to do it, we don't. It is more of a style choice than "being scrubby" however, planking is overrated.

My recent developments are little things that add up (little things matter a lot for a glass canon character); consistently landing Rest when the opportunity is presented and pressuring with the threat of it (range and cost for error aside, it is a 1-frame KO move, after all). More intelligent option selection in her bait and punish game. Implementation of ftilt where effective. Abusing the incredible safety her mobility affords her when she isn't committing to offence (in other words, a mentality change that has made me more patient) - so safe is she that you can effectively gain information about even the most conservative player's style and circumvent her "problem" of being walled out by basic spacing moves (after all, every move is punishable if predicted, even if it's a momentum or positional punish rather than a damage one). Finally, refining her ground movement to become far less predictable and more efficient, using pivots, crouches, walking and dashes optimally.

At the moment I'm exploring using b-reversed pound and pivot b-reversed pound in lieu of standard pound/pivot pound to be less predictable; they feel safer during start-up too, but I think that's just my imagination.

Sorry if this came off super high-brow, I'm engrossed in "In Hell" at the moment, a story set in Victorian times.

How is any of this 'revolutionary'? This sounds like basic **** people already do. Puff still not viable, never will be.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Grim

Hey, grim

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT PUFF

nobody cares about puff

puff is not relevant to the metagame in any way whatsoever.
can we discuss characters who matter more?
like sonic's inflated tier position that STILL carries over from 2008?

 

[Nike.]

Why would you want to talk about Sonic?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Peachy-Desu: Perhaps revolutionary was a poor choice of word, so it's a good thing it wasn't mine. And however basic it may seem,
a) It's 100 times harder with puff
b) No one does it - watch some puff players and tell me otherwise

Supreme Dirt: You choose what you read. Maybe there is only one person in this thread who gets something from my chicken scratchings, but more information is still better than less, whether it is universally appreciated or not.

More than anything, I'm laying the frame work for when I can say "I told you so".

 

[Supreme Dirt]

puff players

there are puff players?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Exactly, I have no idea what Peachy was talking about.

Unless he thinks non-puff players have been using Rest, Puff's ftilt, etc... for ages

 

[Supreme Dirt]

It's like Puff is completely irrelevant to the game as a whole.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You made your point before and I shut it down, snarkily saying it again isn't going to help.

If you want to talk about Sonic, start the discussion and see if anyone picks up on the thread.

 

[bubbaking]

It's -1.

[COLLAPSE="Reasoning"]ZSS has plenty of tools that work against stuff MK likes to do, but every time ZSS is off-stage it's really scary. It's one of the few match-ups that her stupid grab works really well in because she can punish landings with it really effectively (like from tornado).

MK's tilt pressure is gay though, it can be hard to avoid and is really her biggest problem in the MU. If I had to give advice to anyone playing MK I'd say use lots of dtilt and ftilt 1 and grab. Don't rely as much on nado. Grounded poke pressure is where it's at.

And for christ's sake when she dtilts you, jump away. You have like 6 jumps, just use them.[/COLLAPSE]

It's -2 for those reasons. Compare to MK's actual -1 match-ups.

Well, tbh, I don't see how ZSS:MK is much worse than Fox:MK, Wolf:MK, and Olimar:MK, ESPECIALLY Olimar:MK. If Oli is said to only have a -1 against MK, then we really have no business saying ZSS is any worse. As for the other two chars mentioned (spacees), I feel like our stage list would mess them up worse than it would ZSS. ZSS is also a better character than both of them. I feel -1 is pretty accurate.

I mean, Marth hasn't won a tournament like Apex, nor has Pikachu, etc. But if they did no one would bat an eye.

Actually, I'd be pretty surprised if either of those chars won a large national like Apex, especially solo Pikachu. Even ESAM couldn't garner such a feat for him because he often uses ICs for bad MUs.

And the better blonde award goes to...

That Swedish Peach player has beaten us in three different (inter)nationals for three years in a row, each time against a different top level American user of Top Tier chars, all while using a char that isn't even close to Top Tier like ZSS at least is.

Consider Ice Climbers, an actual -1 match-up.
How often do ICs players win vs. MK compared to ZSS?

Actually, Salem just buffed these numbers for ZSS astronomically and from what I've seen, the record between applicable top level ICs and MKs goes pretty back and forth. There are just more MKs.

There's only 2 ZSSs that exist. Saying she isn't very rare is just absurd.

Other people have already named Salem, Nick Riddle, and QuikSilver, but I was also going to mention V115...

Edit: Before anyone says that we're only considering US players, I think all NA players should be considered. That includes Canadians and Mexicans.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth gets to be relevent, yay.

Still can't get top 5 at a national, let's talk about how amazing he is though.

Salem *****. ZSS, she's alright though. At least she's better than Wario. Pikachu though? Haha, no. Don't you know ZSS only has like one relevant main?

This **** doesn't write itself.

I'm just gonna quote this again LOL

^Close enough. Just switch with in my list a month ago and bam.

I was mad, then I saw you had Zero suit above Marth. Good man. Marth is a fraud. Marth and ZSS are excellent examples both sides of confirmation bias.

 

[Ussi]

Didn't Nick Riddle get 3rd at mlg _____ ?

Its not the first time ZSS has been in the top 3 at a stacked national level or higher tourney.

Only thing consisent with tourneys is how many spots MK hogs up in results.