Official BBR Tier List v7

[Tesh]

mlg wasnt as stacked as this, nor was last apex

its not about size or money, its the quality of players

 

[PMC66]

thank you salem for proving me right. about ZSS :D. I said months ago this character should be 6th she's not B tier lol. theres finally the proof, that i was right.

I might just post my own tier list on here every major event that happens just makes it seem all the more accurate. I think BBR should stop making lists and just have me make the tier lists from now on because it won't take 4 years for people to realise D3 is mid tier. That Snake is nowhere near as good as anybody said he was and as i am going to happily say this ZSS being top 6 in the game Booyah.

Thank you so much Salem for proving me right about your character and well done on winning the whole thing you had stiff competition.

top 3 biggest fraud's in brawl

1. Snake
2.Marth
3. D3

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Don't forget Peach.

 

[Iota]

If people become stupid enough to make D3 mid tier I'm quitting brawl.

 

[Dashen]

And now, Don't forget Zero Suit Samus,

 

[BSP]

What a poignant reminder of what character diversity (or lack thereof) looks like these days.

It also shows just how important it is to have a winnable MU vs. MK. If a character doesn't, they're done.

 

[Untitled.doc]

And now, Don't forget Zero Suit Samus,

Indeed, With Salem victory, ZSS'll go up

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You must remember that when it was Olimar's time to shine, we had Logic, Rich Brown, dabuz, and Fino (as well as the Japanese players, and probably some people I'm forgetting) all doing work in many different regions. That's a big part of what pushed Olimar up so hard. I don't think you should expect a drastic change because of Salem's placing (though it will certainly help!).

 

[Shaya]

top 3 biggest fraud's in brawl

1. Snake
2.Marth
3. D3

See guys? two placements in the top 8 of Apex and you're a D tier character.

 

[Untitled.doc]

You must remember that when it was Olimar's time to shine, we had Logic, Rich Brown, dabuz, and Fino (as well as the Japanese players, and probably some people I'm forgetting) all doing work in many different regions. That's a big part of what pushed Olimar up so hard. I don't think you should expect a drastic change because of Salem's placing (though it will certainly help!).

Yeah Indeed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You must remember that when it was Olimar's time to shine, we had Logic, Rich Brown, dabuz, and Fino (as well as the Japanese players, and probably some people I'm forgetting) all doing work in many different regions. That's a big part of what pushed Olimar up so hard. I don't think you should expect a drastic change because of Salem's placing (though it will certainly help!).

No one can control how many good players want to put time into a character; number of players is an impractical measurement of character quality and isn't necessary. Zero suit is also an unusually complex and technical character for brawl, giving her a significant skill floor and cap, and she doesn't even have very many players. Playing another similar character (PT, who requires mastery of 3 characters over 100 match-ups) this is something you should be able understand.

On top of that, I have argued that ZSS was better than Wario before Apex, and possibly even better than Marth or Pikachu due mostly to how much work Quiksilver, Salem, V115, and NickRiddle have done in the past few years. The entire ZSS metagame is on the back of four guys, and they have done an incredible amount of work.

APEX is less of a reason to move ZSS up and more of a confirmation that it makes sense to do it. Nothing more, nothing less.

And don't get me started on Marth, a character with an infinite number of fanboys and players. You'd think they'd be winning everything. They have more awesome players than Sonic did in '09 and his results aren't even as good as Sonic's were back then. Marth as 7th in the game is the ultimate example of confirmation bias. We believed in 08 that Marth was awesome, and now every little thing Marth does is presented as proof of how good he is.

 

[eshu125]

"That Swedish Peach player has beaten us in three different (inter)nationals for three years in a row, each time against a different top level American user of Top Tier chars, all while using a char that isn't even close to Top Tier like ZSS at least is."

Hold THE PHONE.

While I would give the award to Armada due to his consistency, Peach is placed 6th on the tier list and ZSS is placed 10th. On top of that, Melee's top tier of play is a lot more balanced imo, i.e. Armada didn't have to fight any characters that were phenomenally better than the rest of the cast. Salem won two sets against the best MK U.S. and the best MK from Japan (arguably). Not to say Armada doesn't have amazing talent for winning 3 internationals in a row with Peach, but Salem accomplished a much bigger feat.

 

[Shaya]

And don't get me started on Marth, a character with an infinite number of fanboys and players. You'd think they'd be winning everything. They have more awesome players than Sonic did in '09 and his results aren't even as good as Sonic's were back then. Marth as 7th in the game is the ultimate example of confirmation bias. We believed in 08 that Marth was awesome, and now every little thing Marth does is presented as proof of how good he is.

A character who's had a relatively stale metagame for a year to a year and a half prior to 8-9 months ago.

In 08 we figured out how good Marths tools were. "OH MY GOD MARTH CANT BE BAD HE HAS THIS!"

Now we're like "Let's just power shield something and always have a free **** punish 99% of the time" and "Let's play super gay and safe so people don't do the same to us because we don't like being punished, and we shouldn't be getting punished anyway".

 

[Steam]

It took too long for people to realize that marth was overrated.

but him actually placing for once actually justifies him to not drop anymore.

 

[PK Gaming]

No one can control how many good players want to put time into a character; number of players is an impractical measurement of character quality and isn't necessary. Zero suit is also an unusually complex and technical character for brawl, giving her a significant skill floor and cap, and she doesn't even have very many players. Playing another similar character (PT, who requires mastery of 3 characters over 100 match-ups) this is something you should be able understand.

On top of that, I have argued that ZSS was better than Wario before Apex, and possibly even better than Marth or Pikachu due mostly to how much work Quiksilver, Salem, V115, and NickRiddle have done in the past few years. The entire ZSS metagame is on the back of four guys, and they have done an incredible amount of work.

APEX is less of a reason to move ZSS up and more of a confirmation that it makes sense to do it. Nothing more, nothing less.

And don't get me started on Marth, a character with an infinite number of fanboys and players. You'd think they'd be winning everything. They have more awesome players than Sonic did in '09 and his results aren't even as good as Sonic's were back then. Marth as 7th in the game is the ultimate example of confirmation bias. We believed in 08 that Marth was awesome, and now every little thing Marth does is presented as proof of how good he is.

Oooooh man, I think I know how you feel

Marth is like VGC Garchomp. Both are fairly popular character choices used by casuals and pros alike. Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is good, but it shouldn't be used nearly as much as it deserves (or so i've been told) and the praise it gets is unreal.

 

[Naridax]

On top of that, I have argued that ZSS was better than Wario before Apex, and possibly even better than Marth or Pikachu due mostly to how much work Quiksilver, Salem, V115, and NickRiddle have done in the past few years. The entire ZSS metagame is on the back of four guys, and they have done an incredible amount of work.

Until APEX 2013 (that had a win by ZSS and two good showings by Marth), I'd say Mikeneko, Mr.R, Leon, and Mikehaze have put in much more work over the years. Also, even with the win by Salem, I'd say that ESAM has consistently put out more work than all of the ZSS mains combined.

No one can control how many good players want to put time into a character; number of players is an impractical measurement of character quality and isn't necessary.

True. But the number of players that have put in work with a character is a good measurement of character quality IMO. And Olimar doubtless had more.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Does nobody else think USA vs The World needs to be replayed, since the USA's highest placing player, Salem, didn't play?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Until APEX 2013 (that had a win by ZSS and two good showings by Marth), I'd say Mikeneko, Mr.R, Leon, and Mikehaze have put in much more work over the years. Also, even with the win by Salem, I'd say that ESAM has consistently put out more work than all of the ZSS mains combined.

At best, Marth's results were only comparable last year. Pikachu is harder, because there's only one guy and he uses ICs whenever his Pikachu loses.

As for Apex, though, I don't think you realize how much an international win does for a character's proven statistical viability. When NickRiddle got 3rd at MLG, ZSS went up like a whole tier on John #s money chart.

It also proves that the character can win a national/international, since, you know, they did it and everything. Do you really believe that solo Marth and solo Pikachu can do that? For Pikachu, I'd say maybe. For Marth I'd say probably not, but I'm not so closed-minded that if it happened I'd sit here and tell you you're still wrong about it.

True. But the number of players that have put in work with a character is a good measurement of character quality IMO. And Olimar doubtless had more.

OK, and yet here you are saying Pikachu is a better character than ZSS? I mean, it's pretty much a lock that ZSS with 3 or 4 players has done more work than Marth now. lol

 

[Naridax]

I never said that. Where did I say that? Please show me exactly where I said, "Pikachu is better than ZSS."

It also proves that the character can win a national/international, since, you know, they did it and everything. Do you really believe that solo Marth and solo Pikachu can do that? For Pikachu, I'd say maybe. For Marth I'd say probably not, but I'm not so closed-minded that if it happened I'd sit here and tell you you're still wrong about it.

Marth, yes. If Mikeneko beat Salem and he very narrowly did not, he might have gone on to beat M2K. M2K has stated before that it's pretty even between them, although of course it leans toward M2K.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I never said that. Where did I say that?

Well, then what exactly is your argument?

What are we even talking about?

Solo ZSS has now won an international tournament after a year of ZSS upsets and solid placements and 3 years of ZSS as a constant factor in Brawl's meta. Solo Pikachu has never done that. Granted, ESAM has had a lot of accomplishments but it's only one guy and he even relies on a secondary. ZSS has more players doing work, so why isn't that a good indication of character quality when Marth having a million players somehow is? What's this double standard about?

 

[Naridax]

That they're both bad. And don't need to go up. -_-

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I love these boards.

Marth can get exactly what people were saying he lacked then still say he is overated garbage and everyone should be above him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I love these boards.

Marth can get exactly what people were saying he lacked then still say he is overated garbage and everyone should be above him.

I don't think Marth is garbage, I think his current tier placement is largely undeserved, and I want to know why a character with equal or better overall results plus a sweeping win at the most stacked Brawl tournament ever is somehow considered "worse" than a character who finally got "exactly what people were saying he lacked."

But no one can answer this question without either:

1. Saying Salem had an easy bracket (which is just lol) or
2. Making assumptions about ZSS as a character without being able to back them up with any sort of data.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The metagame tends to change, results are different and characters evolve.
The bad arguments will always be bad.

 

[Naridax]

^This is someone who gets it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But it isn't possible that ZSS evolved while Marth didn't or at least not as much? lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's more so the biggst thing I see people moan about Marth around here is his lack of results. He gets them at an international, 2 infact, people still call him overated crap and put him in mid tier on their lists.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's more so the biggst thing I see people moan about Marth around here is his lack of results. He gets them at an international, 2 infact, people still call him overated crap and put him in mid tier on their lists.

What? I didn't put him in mid. I even left him in top. I just put him below ZSS. lol

I do not think Marth is garbage.

My tier list was:

mk
olimar/ics/diddy or something
falco/snake/zss/pikachu-marth
wario/everyone else

or something like that, i cba to check.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Going by the results it makes no sense to deny that ZSS deserves a rise now. While ZSS never won a huge tourney before it was not the first time that a ZSS did exceptionally well at a big tourney - Nick, Kamemushi, quiKsilver and even Snakeee had all done that before. And how many characters can claim to have won a major to begin with? If you refer to results then you can't really downtalk her results at this point anymore.

The question I have is: did any of her match-ups truly improve? Nick lost to 9B's ICs - a match-up that many biased ZSS players have claimed to be in her favor, yet none of the very good ZSS players has winning records over the very good IC players. The match-up is either even or ICs slightly win. Her match-ups against Olimar, Falco, Diddy, Snake, Wario and Marth all have not drastically changed and even the alledged advantage over DDD has not been proven yet. But she surely has been doing more work than Marth or Pikachu and does deserve to rise above both of them as well as Wario, who just isn't that good. I'm just not sure how much she deserves to rise.

@SFP

I think a 7th and 25th are very good placings and the only regions that truly managed to do this well at Apex are NJ/NY and Japan. We have 2 more players in the top 50 and 4 more players that made it into the bracket. That's about as good as SoCal did and nobody questions their competence. Europe just needs more exposure to top tier characters and a better mindset going into tournaments.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I mean her winning means people can relook at her, but auto rise isn't necessarily what should happen, aka Armada in melee.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

SFP, your fanboy is showing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Replying to MUs:

None of ZSS' MUs have "improved" but none of them were that bad to begin with, with the possible exception of Olimar. If Salem had run into Dabuz the results would have looked different. But you can say that about every winner of every major every year.

SFP, your fanboy is showing.

Maybe so? I'm not a "fanboy," but you can see it that way if you wish. Anyone who has been around for a while knows I've posted for pages about several other characters and how preconceived notions leave them without the credit they deserve and I've done it for pages, just like I am now. In the past, Fox, Ike, Ness, Sonic, and way back in 09, Olimar.

I like ZSS and I think she's pretty good, but I'm not a "fanboy." I've just kind of had it with the "results don't matter because I think X" attitude around here.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Marth has theory and a couple good results.
ZSS has theory, one big result (that still matters) and a bunch of not-so-good results.
Pikachu has ESAM

 

[Gardex]

I keep seeing people mention that Marth rarely placed highly pre-Apex at big tournaments.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Marth winning pretty much every single big tourney in Europe and placing very highly in Japan?
USA only has one Marth that can be considered a top player, and he rarely goes outside of Cali(where he places really well, btw). Not to mention that it's pretty much agreed on that Ramin and Mikeneko are better than him(and maybe even Leon?).
So in that one instance of both Mikeneko and Ramin coming to America, they both get into the top 8 at Apex.

Seems legit as hell to me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

European Marths do well at home but not as well out of region. Marth does well at locals and poorly-to-average at majors, at least until this year. Marth did legitimately very well this year.

 

[Gardex]

Winning everything in Europe and getting like top 1-4 in Japan should be proof enough that he's more than legit enough to have a 7th place

And if you want to focus more on the American side, you should still keep in mind that the only really great Marth is still not quite on the level of the top Japanese and European one, and he's still doing well.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

TWO MARTHS PLACED TOP 8 AT APEX.

If you're seriously saying that Marth isn't deserving of his spot on the tier list when ZSS is because of a nonsense upset, you're bad and should feel bad.
Marth is the second highest placing non-MK character at this tourney... twice.

If Salem can repeat this? sure.

But until that happens don't hold your breath.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Winning everything in Europe and getting like top 1-4 in Japan should be proof enough that he's more than legit enough to have a 7th place

So do you or do you not think that consistent top 5s at locals/large locals/regionals, several good placements in majors, and The Biggest Win Ever isn't better?

I really don't get that.

But until that happens don't hold your breath.

LOL people say that every time ZSS does well and I bring this up again.

 

[infiniteV115]

SFP, if you're going to mention my name as a top ZSS along with Salem Quik and NR, then you should also be mentioning DRN ._.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Sorry V, love ya and all but you're not a top anything.

We're a bad region lol.