Official BBR Tier List v7

[Gardex]

Sending Salem to losers and resetting the bracket would count as a victory, just like Salem beating M2K in WFs does.

 

[ErikG]

M2K didn't even really come close to beating Salem, because that was just set 1. He didn't even get to reset the bracket. Salem really took this entire tournament rather dominantly. GFs were hype, but they weren't close.

I would consider game 5 last hit to be a close set. Salem definitely dominated in WF, but that grand finals set was close.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also, Gheb has the sexiest accent of all time. You guys don't even know.

This guy knows.

Zero Suit vs. Meta Knight is a bad match up?
Isn't it only -1?

OK, it's "unfavorable" then.

 

[bubbaking]

I mean, you could argue that talking about the tier list or where characters belong is petty and a pissing contest or whatever, but that's why you're all here. None of you are good, only a few of you are even better than I am. We're here to debate and everyone likes to be right.

Might be sigging this...

Move her above Wario, that might be it lol. This passion for like, 1 spot that she might have gotten anyways with Wario sliding down.

I think the passion is mostly over whether ZSS can get into Top Tier or not. Let's be honest; those pro-TT ZSS people wouldn't be too unhappy if ZSS was just moved up into Top Tier without actually moving above anyone, even Wario. On the other hand, if Wario just slides down below ZSS but she doesn't actually change tiers, there will be outrage.

One win doesn't mean anything.

Consistency is what matters.

I think going through all of Apex without losing a single set is pretty darn consistent.....

 

[#HBC | Joker]

ZSS rising in the tier list from one tournament doesn't make that much sense. When you consider that getting into top tier doesn't even technically require her to go above anyone else though, it doesn't seem that unreasonable. People just need to chill out about it. Salem winning apex isn't awesome because "now everyone will finally know how good zss is". It's awesome because Salem doesn't play MK, or any other character in the top tier. The same character hasn't won Apex twice yet, that's pretty awesome by itself.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS rising in the tier list from one tournament doesn't make that much sense. When you consider that getting into top tier doesn't even technically require her to go above anyone else though, it doesn't seem that unreasonable. People just need to chill out about it. Salem winning apex isn't awesome because "now everyone will finally know how good zss is". It's awesome because Salem doesn't play MK, or any other character in the top tier. The same character hasn't won Apex twice yet, that's pretty awesome by itself.

It doesn't, but on the other hand, ZSS was a good choice to move up a tier without Apex Apex is the cherry on top, the icing on the cake, the meta knight on the ledge.

 

[bubbaking]

I can see what you're saying but I really don't think an (inter)national can be won by any character that isn't Top Tier. I'm not saying a very small data pool (even though NR also got 3rd at MLG 2010) should dictate a change in the tier list, but I am saying that no non-TT chars should be getting 1st in such a large and stacked tourney against the best users of actual TT chars, so maybe ZSS is TT material and no one realized it until now.

First of all, what zmx said. (DEHF has been knocked out of losers by both Nietono and Dabuz.)

Second of all, Olimar has been more relevant for much longer than ZSS. Brood placed 2nd at APEX 2010, and Rich Brown, Logic, and Dabuz have been big name Olimars here. Nietono dominated Japan for how long? Almost always winning from 2010 to 2012 IIRC, until Rain memorized him. Even after Rain memorized Nietono, Brood started beating him!

So, why would anyone give Olimar as much scrutiny? He's been thought of as "good" by more people for a longer time.

If after several years where people begin to pay attention to ZSS and explore the match up and ZSS (Salem) is still dominating, more people may consider bumping up ZSS.

Maybe.

The problem I'm seeing with this argument is that Oli's position at #2 is what's being debated for him, whereas for ZSS, it's simply over whether she's good enough to be in TT or not, something very different and much smaller in magnitude. Of course Olimar is going to have to back himself up with incredible results. He's #2! No one's making that kind of claim for ZSS, so she shouldn't need as "dominant" results to prove herself.

That would be more likely to happen if another ZSS showed up with similar results. But, right now, I don't see any. Snake had Ally and Razer. Diddy Kong had ADHD and Gnes. Falco had DEHF, SK92, and Rain. Olimar had Nietono, Brood, Rich Brown, and Dabuz.

Where are the other ZSS?

The same argument that's put down pikachu for not just one tournament placing but for years.

Well then knock Wario and Pika out of Top Tier then. Only one Pika user actually gets results for him and he doesn't even go solo Pika, and just forget about Wario. Only one player gets results for him and he didn't even get high at Apex.

Besides, I already mentioned NR's 3rd place at MLG 2010.

No ZSS can hold a candle to Salem.

Not even NR? That's a really bold claim to be making from just one set of results.

Edit: Until now, NR was always considered to be the very best ZSS, with Salem at a close second. Don't start disrespecting just because of one tourney, man...

 

[#HBC | Joker]

NR will probably avoid smashboards for awhile.

It's not like Nick Riddle got ****tier at the game though. He still did pretty well himself, he's still the man. Salem did, however, prove that the ZSS ditto isn't the only MU he's awesome at. Salem just got better. A lot better.

 

[bubbaking]

Hey wait a second! Nick Riddle also got 5th at WHOBO 4, and then there's his 2nd place at Smashed Together. ZSS has plenty of top placements and NR has provided a good chunk of them.

Edit: This isn't @Private.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

he beat nick at the last apex. out placed him at both. and severely at this one. salem is the best zss

 

[Komatik]

It doesn't, but on the other hand, ZSS was a good choice to move up a tier without Apex Apex is the cherry on top, the icing on the cake, the meta knight on the ledge.

MK on the ledge seems pretty sour instead of sweet and delicious?

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not disputing that, but I kinda disagree with all this "No ZSS can compare to Salem" stuff. That would be like saying no MK could hold a torch to Nairo in the past because of his accomplishments at Apex '12 and other tourneys when M2K clearly made great accomplishments elsewhere. Same goes for other people/chars, like Dabuz with Olimar, and Shaky with Ness.

Also this. We are often so obsessed with arbitrary tier lists and matchup ratios that we forget after a certain point, it really is just the players themselves.

To suggest ZSS is secretly god tier or whatever does take quite a bit away from Salem's incredible play which really isn't fair.
The tournament had all the best ZSS players and yet, only Salem got a spectacular placing (closest after that was NR at 25th). That clearly suggests it has more to do with Salem.

Which isn't an entirely unfair assessment. A good player is going to be aided by the tools at their disposal. That doesn't mean it's "taking away" from someone's achievements to suggest their character is better than we thought.

Otherwise, there wouldnt even be a tier list

And besides, it often takes a really good player to use all of the tools of his character, especially when that char has a lot of them (e.g. ESAM with Pika). Salem doing well with ZSS, even if ZSS is indeed a "god tier" character, still shows that Salem is an excellent player because he put so much time and work into learning and properly utilizing all of ZSS' tools. Great players of 'bad' chars impress us because of how hard they fight and struggle to do well against users of chars better than theirs. However, great players of 'good' chars are great because of how much they've managed to master out of an expansive tool-set that's probably hard to fully encompass and understand. ZSS being a Top Tier char wouldn't take away from Salem's accomplishments at all. It just shows that he is good for recognizing how to use all of that 'goodness'.

His top players quitting = Lucario goes down?

...what?

Isn't that basically what happened to Diddy? Gnes quit, ADHD attended less tourneys, Diddy moved down.

That said APEX showed that it is possible to win/do well with anyone not at the top

Well that's just the thing? Did APEX really show that or are we simply interpreting it wrong because ZSS is better than we're all giving her credit for being? As I said earlier, I'm actually of the mind that a non-TT char can't win a stacked (inter)national. If someone managed to get all the way up there (without losing a set, no less) with a char currently not considered to be Top Tier, then perhaps it's time for us to re-evaluate the information we have on this character. Statistics don't lie, especially when one brings in all the biggest tests for quality into one mega-tourney.

 

[Yodery]

Lucas is underrated IMO...

 

[bubbaking]

i am sad though at the lack of pikachus doing well at Apex though :/

The only relevant Pika nowadays is ESAM, and he did pretty darn well at this Apex. Don't forget to eliminate all those MKs for a better idea of the other chars' placements.

If it was just Trela over the past years I'd agree, but it hasn't been the case. Someone has been up their with him, just recently with both June and Trela gone he lost his two biggest players.

Tbh, it's ONLY been Trela and Junebug up there who have been showing what Lucario can do. John12346 is kinda following in their footsteps, but it's like Zinoto and P-1 compared to ADHD and Gnes. Still, Lucario should remain in High Tier, and honestly, it doesn't really matter much whether he's right above DDD or right below him. As long as he's above TL and everyone in BL Tier, he's in a good spot.

Yeah maybe we should talk about marth considering he was tired for the second most placements in top 25 along with ice climbers. That is pretty darn impressive considering he out placed almost all the characters above him like snake, olimar, or diddy. Also people saying salem is an outlier, there are two zss's in top 25. Just as many as there are falcos and olimars and diddys. Its not salem was just a fluke up there by himself.

Top 32 actually...

The better blond award goes to (Armada) . He won more money then salem~.

No. is not better then /.

should just move to High tier and above him into top tier. That's it.

^Close enough. Just switch with in my list a month ago and bam.

Wow, this man speaks a lot of the truth.

My recent developments are little things that add up (little things matter a lot for a glass canon character); consistently landing Rest when the opportunity is presented and pressuring with the threat of it (range and cost for error aside, it is a 1-frame KO move, after all). More intelligent option selection in her bait and punish game. Implementation of ftilt where effective. Abusing the incredible safety her mobility affords her when she isn't committing to offence (in other words, a mentality change that has made me more patient) - so safe is she that you can effectively gain information about even the most conservative player's style and circumvent her "problem" of being walled out by basic spacing moves (after all, every move is punishable if predicted, even if it's a momentum or positional punish rather than a damage one). Finally, refining her ground movement to become far less predictable and more efficient, using pivots, crouches, walking and dashes optimally.

At the moment I'm exploring using b-reversed pound and pivot b-reversed pound in lieu of standard pound/pivot pound to be less predictable; they feel safer during start-up too, but I think that's just my imagination.

I still don't really understand how exactly Puff is supposed to fight against a char who simply does nothing but react. For instance, in DDD's case, just face backwards and react to anything Puff does with utilt, bair, or turnaround grab. It sounds oversimplified, but I'm serious. How does Puff realistically get in on this character and secure a comfortable lead? Perhaps you should tell the people you're playing to play more defensively...

You choose what you read. Maybe there is only one person in this thread who gets something from my chicken scratchings, but more information is still better than less, whether it is universally appreciated or not.

More than anything, I'm laying the frame work for when I can say "I told you so".

You're starting to sound like DarkPch now...

 

[bubbaking]

Double post, sorry. My SWF is bugging out.....

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I dunno about comparing Zinoto to John12346 in terms of the skill gap between them and the top players. Zinoto placed the same as ADHD at Apex, and he's a better player than John#s by quite a bit. He's still getting better and better all the time. He's on the rise.

You know who was on the rise last year? Salem.

 

[Steam]

toon link is a better character than lucario

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Bubba
No, that's a completely understandable criticism to have.

I can't really explain it any better than I have in the past, I really just need to play against you (or anyone else that agrees).

I'll try and get a video against Apollo's meta knight, he plays the match-up reactionary.



EDIT: actually, now that I'm awake, I've changed my mind - I can explain it.

Imagine your facing away from me and I short hop into your SH bair range. If I predict that you will bair I can weave back out before you touch me. Even if you don't bair, I don't lose anything, positions are just reset.

Problem for you is, short hopping in and weaving out isn't my only option (just the safest). You commit to that bair and I can air dodge through it, I can mix up how close I get before weaving out to **** with your timing/spacing, I can weave out and pound as bair is finishing, etc...

And if you don't commit to that bair, you're going to get tapped by mine... Or forced into shield which is an incredible position for Puff anyway.

Point is, it's a mental war just like any other match-up.

 

[bubbaking]

I see what you're saying, but what if I invincibly utilt through your bair? The move starts behind DDD after all.

I think BBR should stop making lists and just have me make the tier lists from now on because it won't take 4 years for people to realise D3 is mid tier.

top 3 biggest fraud's in brawl

1. Snake
2.Marth
3. D3

What? Are you aware that NO non-TT char made into the top 32 except for Nakat's Fox, Shaky's Ness, Earth's Pit, and to an extent Atomsk's DDD. DDD was Atomsk's most used char, so his top 32 placing among almost solely Top Tier other placers suggests a High Tier placing for DDD. If anything, the top 32 does NOTHING to suggest that DDD is anything lower than High. There were NO Lucarios, TLs, or even Warios, other than Atomsk's Wario (which he used less than DDD), in the top 32. I don't see how you came to your conclusion about DDD from these Apex results.

"That Swedish Peach player has beaten us in three different (inter)nationals for three years in a row, each time against a different top level American user of Top Tier chars, all while using a char that isn't even close to Top Tier like ZSS at least is."

Hold THE PHONE.

While I would give the award to Armada due to his consistency, Peach is placed 6th on the tier list and ZSS is placed 10th. On top of that, Melee's top tier of play is a lot more balanced imo, i.e. Armada didn't have to fight any characters that were phenomenally better than the rest of the cast. Salem won two sets against the best MK U.S. and the best MK from Japan (arguably). Not to say Armada doesn't have amazing talent for winning 3 internationals in a row with Peach, but Salem accomplished a much bigger feat.

Brawl's char roster is also way larger than Melee's. Being directly below Top Tier in Brawl is MUCH closer to Top than a placement in the middle of High Tier in Melee. I would argue that 10th in Brawl is actually better than 6th in Melee. I kinda disagree when people say that Melee's Top Tier is more balanced than Brawl's. At ROM 5, practically every other place in the top 32 was a Fox. There was one notable exception and it was still a Falco, so it followed the pattern if you extend it to encompass both spacees. The very fact that Top Tier is so small in Melee directly shows how a very small pool of chars dominate Melee tourneys compared to the relatively large Top Tier of Brawl. Overcoming all this imbalance would actually make Armada's feat(s) as great as, if not greater than, Salem's. You never see a Melee Marth winning Apex, although one came close.

It took too long for people to realize that marth was overrated.

but him actually placing for once actually justifies him to not drop anymore.

Really? From just one tournament? Just one instance of good placements?

Oooooh man, I think I know how you feel

Marth is like VGC Garchomp. Both are fairly popular character choices used by casuals and pros alike. Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is good, but it shouldn't be used nearly as much as it deserves (or so i've been told) and the praise it gets is unreal.

Nah, Garchomp isn't even comparable to Marth. Garchomp is legitimately extremely good, both in theory and in practice. There's a reason he was banned both on Smogon and on PO, unless you follow a very limiting restriction. The praise it gets is totally deserved, especially given Pokemon's chance-based metagame. Even in Uber, Garchomp is a very important force to watch out for.

True. But the number of players that have put in work with a character is a good measurement of character quality IMO. And Olimar doubtless had more.

This is a very controversial idea to be getting behind, IMO, and I personally disagree with it. What if Olimar is simply an easier char to pick up but has a lower skill/reward cap? Look at G&W. Everyone thought he was so great because people like Vinnie were doing really well with him and his crap was so easy to pick up and spam, but once you get past the crap, his skill cap is pretty low, and now he's falling back down the list.

If a char is hard to learn but has a high skill cap, you'll probably see less players playing him/her, but eventually, they'll consistently start garnering high results, like Salem's 1st place at Apex 2013, and NR's 5th place at WHOBO 4 and 2nd place at Smashed Together.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As long as I'm hitting with bair's disjoint (which I should be, especially if you're facing away because you can't walk to mess up spacing) utilt doesn't reach me afaik

Either way, it's a counterable thing just like your bair, but I think the point you were making is that it's really hard for Puff to win the mental war? I agree, but only if you ignore her ability to safely learn the opponent's habits (mentioned this in the long post from before).

 

[Sunnysunny]

Really? From just one tournament? Just one instance of good placements?

Yes?

Apex is the biggest tournament brawl has to offer where all the best players from all over the world come to compete. Every character's top players attended. Of course it's going to hold alot of weight when 2 Marth mains place in top 8 when they're competing against the best of the best. The tier list has always been heavily effected by the Apex results.

Do you really think he should drop even further, Bubba?

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I don't. I've honestly been a supporter of Marth's current placement in Top Tier for a while now. His MU spread practically screams that he should stay where he is. I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate to certain 'questionable' arguments. To be 100% honest, I only think ZSS should be moved up 1 spot into Top Tier and Wario should be moved down into High Tier. That's it.

And you're saying exactly why I feel ZSS deserves at least a small rise. ZSS just took on the best of the best and came out on top. I don't like how people say Salem just got lucky with an "easy bracket" because there is NO easy bracket in such a stacked tourney.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Grim who was talking about puff? I'm confused.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yo lets talk about Yoshi instead.

 

[infiniteV115]

Deltacod > Blacktwins > Raptor > all other Yoshis > GoldenYoshiKing

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Deltacod > Bowser the Train > Blacktwins > Raptor > all other Yoshis > GoldenYoshiKing

fixed that for you

 

[PMC66]

If people become stupid enough to make D3 mid tier I'm quitting brawl.

pfffft I can't believe there were people stupid enough to believe D3 was high tier to begin with he's unviable, linear and obsolete.

 

[Lukingordex]

Yoshi?

Never heard of it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim who was talking about puff? I'm confused.

>I make a post
>Bubbaking makes a post
>I make a post

who could I possibly have been talking to

 

[bubbaking]

Marth, yes. If Mikeneko beat Salem and he very narrowly did not, he might have gone on to beat M2K. M2K has stated before that it's pretty even between them, although of course it leans toward M2K.

How do you know Salem wouldn't have just gone on to come up in Losers and still take the tournament? It's too hard to speculate "what if..." like this, especially with a double-elmination bracket. The fact that Salem never lost a set and beat M2K twice, though, kinda hints that, had he narrowly lost to Mikeneko as you suggest, he would have still come back and won Apex, ESPECIALLY if M2K came out on top against Mikeneko.

If Salem had run into Dabuz the results would have looked different. But you can say that about every winner of every major every year.

OK seriously, are people forgetting that there is a Losers Bracket?

Marth has theory and a couple good results.
ZSS has theory, one big result (that still matters) and a bunch of not-so-good results.
Pikachu has ESAM

Uh, ZSS has at least three very good results OTHER than Salem's 1st place at Apex 2013. I've already pointed out NR's 5th place at WHOBO 4 and 2nd place at Smashed Together. What about V115's 4th place at IMPULSE?

Other than MLG, ZSS didn't have many good results until one PIOSUMA and this Apex...
Marth has many non-wonderful, but good results during these 4 years....

Read above regarding ZSS. Marth's results before 2011 (2010 at earliest) really shouldn't be considered in our Tier List discussions. In all honesty, anything before 2012 is outdated and I just gave you four sets of ZSS results from 2012 and later.

Also, has anybody mentioned that Salem got lucky having not to face Vinnie?

Not this.....

 

[RaptorTEC]

Deltacod > MX > Raptor > all other Yoshis > GoldenYoshiKing

Fixed that for you ;D

 

[Sunnysunny]

Actually, I don't. I've honestly been a supporter of Marth's current placement in Top Tier for a while now. His MU spread practically screams that he should stay where he is. I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate to certain 'questionable' arguments. To be 100% honest, I only think ZSS should be moved up 1 spot into Top Tier and Wario should be moved down into High Tier. That's it.

And you're saying exactly why I feel ZSS deserves at least a small rise. ZSS just took on the best of the best and came out on top. I don't like how people say Salem just got lucky with an "easy bracket" because there is NO easy bracket in such a stacked tourney.

People are saying that?
Uhg.

Salem definitely didn't cruise by. That kid was just on fire the whole night. Taking one look at the top 25 of apex just screams stacked. You're going to run into tough players eventually if you get that far.

Granted some players did get swamped worst in pools then others, but still, Salem was playing his heart out~ Mm but yea. Her getting into the bottom of top tier sounds good. At the least! Honestly, this is the first time for me seeing the extent of ZSS's power.

Yo lets talk about Yoshi instead.

He didn't get 17th place this time. :I

 

[infiniteV115]

Fixed that for you ;D

Blacktwins > you tho




At least against ZSS

 

[Iota]

pfffft I can't believe there were people stupid enough to believe D3 was high tier to begin with he's unviable, linear and obsolete.

....Guys, should I put PMC on my ignore list?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Blacktwins > you tho




At least against ZSS

I've been to a tourney recently? I should have told me.

 

[infiniteV115]

I was talking to Raptor, Dirt.

Iota yeah you might as well, I'm surprised he's not already there.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Uh, ZSS has at least three very good results OTHER than Salem's 1st place at Apex 2013. I've already pointed out NR's 5th place at WHOBO 4 and 2nd place at Smashed Together. What about V115's 4th place at IMPULSE?

Read above regarding ZSS. Marth's results before 2011 (2010 at earliest) really shouldn't be considered in our Tier List discussions. In all honesty, anything before 2012 is outdated and I just gave you four sets of ZSS results from 2012 and later.

People apparently keep forgetting about SKTAR

Spoiler

1. Nairo $630
2. Esam $308
3. Vinnie $168
4. Anti $114
5. Ally $58
5. Trela $58
7. Tyrant $35
7. Rich Brown $35
9: Mew2King
9: Mr. R
9: DEHF
9: Mekos
13: Seibrik
13: Leon
13: Dabuz
13: JBandrew
17: Salem
17: Glutonny
17: Kingtoon
17: Will
17: Pelca
17: Mike Haze
17: Atomsk
17: Nakat

And I'm not sure how to analyze Whobo, as it was MK-banned.

Not this.....

lol I wasn't even serious when I typed that.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I'd probably agree with the ZSS mu. You taught me I suck at it. I actually wanted to play you more to get better at it, but you seemed really uninterested so I didn't ask

 

[bubbaking]

[COLLAPSE="Results aren't that important."]Yes, but if it had happened, you wouldn't be opening your mouth right now. That statement is an open admission to how much less this win means than it is made out to be. Results are not the end-all be-all because anyone can play a character hanging on the outskirts of viability and get the dream bracket. Salem did. He didn't run into an MK that was particularly knowledgeable in the MU. He didn't run into Dabunz or DEHF to prove anything about those MUs.

He played well and did well, but he did get lucky enough not to have to prove that somewhat viable is still viable, but you should not be marking this as the second coming of christ.



Results really don't mean **** at all. Results don't affect anything about whether or not a character is any more viable. They can be cited as an indicator, but once you start digging into this one, you'll notice that it doesn't really bring any new information to light.

Results don't matter because characters don't change. Results should be a red flag to look at something again, but you don't have any cause to go waving last weekend under someone's nose and saying to put ZSS above Snake like some people here.[/COLLAPSE]

Maybe saying ZSS is better than Snake is a bit of overestimation, but if the tier list is supposed to be a display of a char's viability (read: a char's chances of winning a tournament), then how can one say that the results of an (inter)national, the ultimate and largest test of a char's tourney viability/chances of winning, aren't that major in discussions of a char's placement, ESPECIALLY when they follow the extremely good results of multiple ZSS mains before Salem all in 2012. A 2nd place, a 5th place, a 4th place, and now a 1st place at Apex 2013. No one can possibly ignore the trend being created here.

But that's exactly what did not happen and why it would be foolish to assume ZSS to be top tier just like that. Salem overcame the MK match-up at Apex but he did not overcome ICs, Falco, Diddy or Olimar. So rather than him overcoming "a bunch of ****ty matchups" he overcame one pretty bad matchup and managed to avoid the others.

Hey, you're back.

Btw, are people forgetting pools? Do you all realize that Salem had to face a lot more than what you are seeing in his pool bracket? If he really did get a 'dream bracket', then it's largely because he did so well in his pools. That's the whole purpose of the pools. You do well, you get seeded so that you don't have to face another powerhouse early in bracket. You still face them, just later.

Edit: And before people start saying that Salem probably had 'easy pools', that's the whole point of placing well at 'indicator tournaments' beforehand. You come into Apex with a good tourney record, you get seeded well for pools. You do well in pools, you get a bracket that makes sense and promotes accuracy in the results, skill-wise. If people complain about stacked pools, then perhaps they should have attended some big tournaments.

She doesn't have a ****ing grab and, as a result, struggles more with coping with her terrible Oli MU than Marth ever will with his MK and D3 MUs.

MK doesn't have a ****ing projectile. You don't see him dipping any lower than #1 on the Tier List, even though ALL of his hardest MUs (Diddy, all 3 spacees, Marth, Olimar, ICs, Snake, and ZSS) have a good projectile or zoning tool.

I figured that much is obvious considering that I've been talking about how Salem's wins don't cause you to need to reconsider the bad match-ups that lead to her current placement.

Let's go over this slowly. For starters, compare ZSS to Wario. Wario has three extremely common -2 MUs that seriously screw him over in bracket. ZSS has nothing worse than -1. Wario has a fairly large player base compared to ZSS but almost no good results to show for it, compared to ZSS' multiple extremely high placings in several large tournaments. APEX is the nail in the coffin. I'm not even arguing for the same thing that SFP is arguing for. I'm simply saying that ZSS definitely deserves to go over Wario and into Top Tie.

ZSS obviously has a pretty good MK MU so ZSS should be top tier for being able to handle MK very well.

MK heavy brackets aren't out of the ordinary.

^^^^^A lot of this, among other things.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm simply saying that ZSS definitely deserves to go over Wario and into Top Tie.

ZSS over Wario makes sense, but I think the title of Top Tie still belongs to DK.