Official BBR Tier List v7

[Supermodel From Paris]

They're both good but they're no ESAM.

To be honest I think Anther could come back and immediately start outplacing both of them. That guy is a god.

I'm not saying they don't count for anything, they're both really good, but ESAM is a top-level player, whereas they are very, very good high-level players. The Japanese Pikachu whose name escapes me atm might be comparable. Not sure.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Captain L also has a pretty good Pika. And Kprime.

This thread lol... Not international threat like Esam? DOESN'T MATTER

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Raptor I don't think anyone is saying there aren't any good Pikachus. Kprme, Z, Pikapika, Captain L, whoever else, they're all good. No one is saying they aren't good. And no one is trying to take away from their skill level, not me anyway.

But ESAM is completely different. ESAM is probably one of the best players in the world across all characters.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I was about to be amazed if nobody mentioned K Prime.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Maybe saying ZSS is better than Snake is a bit of overestimation, but if the tier list is supposed to be a display of a char's viability (read: a char's chances of winning a tournament), then how can one say that the results of an (inter)national, the ultimate and largest test of a char's tourney viability/chances of winning, aren't that major in discussions of a char's placement, ESPECIALLY when they follow the extremely good results of multiple ZSS mains before Salem all in 2012. A 2nd place, a 5th place, a 4th place, and now a 1st place at Apex 2013. No one can possibly ignore the trend being created here.

I will bet you any sum that, so long as the game remains popular, the character will never repeat the performance. I'm calling it a lucky bracket, a fluke, and far less big of a deal than it's being made out to be.

MK doesn't have a ****ing projectile. You don't see him dipping any lower than #1 on the Tier List, even though ALL of his hardest MUs (Diddy, all 3 spacees, Marth, Olimar, ICs, Snake, and ZSS) have a good projectile or zoning tool.

Do you not understand context? One, lack of usable grab is a much bigger deal than lack of a projectile. Two, I was referring to the Olimar MU in specific where she struggles immensely to get in and then gets kicked in the **** on reaction for trying to beat Olimar's shield. Three, your example refers to a character with a "good zoning tool" as if MK himself doesn't posses any. I can't tell if you're being a troll or just an imbecile.

Let's go over this slowly. For starters, compare ZSS to Wario. Wario has three extremely common -2 MUs that seriously screw him over in bracket. ZSS has nothing worse than -1. Wario has a fairly large player base compared to ZSS but almost no good results to show for it, compared to ZSS' multiple extremely high placings in several large tournaments. APEX is the nail in the coffin.

For starters? You never got anywhere else with it. I've already stated that ZSS herself doesn't merit any movement and that any tier list improvement she sees should be based around Wario moving down which is what you are arguing here and I'm STILL not sold on it with Reflex having to forfeit out of bracket and Gluttony not in attendance.

As for your cited results, most of them are dated garbage or from MK banned. What do you draw from them? How do you quantify them? What do they mean? How do you measure the caliber of event? How do you account for extraneous circumstances? APEX is a red flag to look again and see if you can unearth something about the character that is different from previous assumptions that make her more viable than previously imagined. What is it? What match-ups changed and why did they?

I'm not even arguing for the same thing that SFP is arguing for. I'm simply saying that ZSS definitely deserves to go over Wario and into Top Tie.

Then why on god's green Earth are you responding to me telling SFP that he's ****ing high for wanting to put ZSS above Pikachu and Marth when you don't even support the opinion?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Why does it matter if the other pikas aren't on Esam's level? The same could be said for any character but MK. The best is the best for a reason.

 

[Delta-cod]

Nah, I'd say it works for Yoshi too. I don't think MX/Raptor are too far behind me anymore.

They just gotta CONQUER THEIR NERVES AND STOP CHOKING GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falco is a very good character.

Bubbaking needs to learn reading my posts correctly.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Nah, I'd say it works for Yoshi too. I don't think MX/Raptor are too far behind me anymore.

They just gotta CONQUER THEIR NERVES AND STOP CHOKING GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ.

MX really surprised me at Apex. He's improved so much lately <3 I have no doubt in my mind he will solidly surpass both of us soon if he keeps it up and STOPS going Fox

Also, I think ZSS should be moved up a spot or 2 at least, but nothing crazy. We've gotten so much rep from her lately that it would be stupid to ignore. The most obvious one being Salem who just won Apex. Then we have ZSS's like Nick Riddle and QuikSilver and then some smaller but still legit ZSS's like V115 and Dakpo. They've been putting in work (especially Salem).

. Thoughts?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Marth/ZSS/Pikachu >>>>>>>>> Wario

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Specifically because all three characters have a better time against Meta Knight, and I completely agree. That's why most break-out Wario use has been as a secondary lately--He can't do it by himself because Meta Knight prevents it, primarily.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

johns^^^^^^

lol jk wario just doesn't have a titan like most other top tiers. there is player to wario like m2k to mk, gnes to diddy, ally to snake, esam to pikachu, 9b for ic's, etc. i don't even think gluttony is a titan, he lost to ****ing lucas. but zss definitely is even with marth at best, just above wario at worst for now

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That isn't to say that Wario isn't a great character, but his outright bad matchup against the character that defines the metagame isn't shared by any other character in A/B Tier, and that makes a world of difference.

 

[bubbaking]

I think what I said about falco in 2009 is still true, you could give his neutral B to any character in the game and they'd suddenly be at least high tier.

Zelda, Bowser, Ganon, or Jigglypuff with Falco lasers could win tournaments,

This isn't really supporting your argument that Falco's not a good character...

Pikapika still plays, right? He was at APEX, at least.

Where are his results?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I never said that I don't think Falco is good, Salem did.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, Wario isn't a great character. And it's not just a matter of MK being legal. Wario is still too easily countered by DDD and Marth as well. Whereas Marth, Pikachu and ZSS only have a pool of various soft-counters, Wario has 3 borderline hard-counters and that makes a world of difference too.

 

[bubbaking]

Falco is a very good character.

Bubbaking needs to learn reading my posts correctly.

Who the heck said I was quoting you and when did I ever say that I think Falco is a bad character? What the heck?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I was talking about the part where you said something about Salem having a "dream bracket full of MKs" or something like that and quoted me on it. All I said is that Salem did not prove that any of ZSS matchups are better than we previously thought, except Metaknight who was often seen as a contender for a -2 matchup.

Edit - That post: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15242486&postcount=11999

 

[bubbaking]

I will bet you any sum that, so long as the game remains popular, the character will never repeat the performance. I'm calling it a lucky bracket, a fluke, and far less big of a deal than it's being made out to be.

Haters gonna hate...

As for your cited results, most of them are dated garbage or from MK banned. What do you draw from them? How do you quantify them? What do they mean? How do you measure the caliber of event? How do you account for extraneous circumstances? APEX is a red flag to look again and see if you can unearth something about the character that is different from previous assumptions that make her more viable than previously imagined. What is it? What match-ups changed and why did they?

Are you kidding me? You seriously have to be joking! ......right? Every single one of the tourneys that I cited, except for MLG 2010, was from 2012, and ALL OVER 2012 at that. There were MK-banned and MK-legal ones. The very fact that ZSS already places extremely well in MK-banned tourneys means that ZSS can perform well and win anywhere because Salem has already proven that she can win in an MK-infested bracket, so that means she can feasibly win in BOTH environments. It's not often that my debating opponents actually provide me with ammo like that.

 

[Delta-cod]

MX really surprised me at Apex. He's improved so much lately <3 I have no doubt in my mind he will solidly surpass both of us soon if he keeps it up and STOPS going Fox

If any of you guys surpass me it'll because I play this game in a serious setting like, once every month or two now. XD

Also, I think ZSS should be moved up a spot or 2 at least, but nothing crazy. We've gotten so much rep from her lately that it would be stupid to ignore. The most obvious one being Salem who just won Apex. Then we have ZSS's like Nick Riddle and QuikSilver and then some smaller but still legit ZSS's like V115 and Dakpo. They've been putting in work (especially Salem).

. Thoughts?

I think she should be above Wario. To be perfectly honest, I think Wario is relatively bad compared to the characters around him.

 

[bubbaking]

@Ryker: My mention of NR's great placements during every MLG 2010 circuit was simply to show that ZSS has been placing well for an extremely long time now without the warranted raise on the list that kind of performance deserves. If you really want me to re-list all my data, complete with dates and MK-legality, then here you go:

• IMPULSE - 6/30/2012 - V115 gets 4th out of 69 entrants - MK-banned
• SKTAR - 7/17/2012 - Salem gets 17th out of 140 entrants - MK-legal
• Smashed Together - 7/28/2012 - NR gets 2nd out of 37 entrants - MK-banned
• WHOBO 4 - 8/4/2012 - NR gets 5th out of 96 entrants - MK-banned
• APEX 2013 - 1/11/2013 - Salem gets 1st out of ??? - MK-legal

Are you really going to claim that my information is outdated or partial?

Edit: And as I already stated, this just means that ZSS can do extremely well or win, whether MK is legal or not. Introducing him won't stop her. Salem stomped on how many MKs again?

 

[RaptorTEC]

If any of you guys surpass me it'll because I play this game in a serious setting like, once every month or two now. XD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK-banned if anything nerfs ZSS because MK deals with a lot of ZSS' "worse" match-ups for her. ZSS-MK is one of her "better" -1 match-ups.

ZSS uniquely has tools that make tornado spam a liability, even smart ones are pretty easy to deal with. If she shields it ZSS is very fast and has a long-range grab and can get anywhere to punish it, it's very strong. She can also DI up out of the nado and down-b away or DI through and dtilt his landing. It's still an OK move against her, I'm not saying it's not usable, but I believe she has more tools than most of the cast to punish it. It's not totally safe against her. She also has more recovery tools against MK than most, although really he should still be able to gimp her if he plays it right. Tilt pressure is a problem, probably the biggest problem, but ZSS is fast and has really good reset potential in the match-up, she can almost always get away from situations she doesn't like. There's also the fact that MK dies at like 105 vs. ZSS if she has a fresh move, and the fact that a single read can deal like 40% damage.

So yeah, MK-banned is probably worse for ZSS because there's a higher chance of her encountering a Diddy or Olimar which are slightly worse tbh.

 

[Delta-cod]

<3

But really, I'm confident that, while you guys are improving, if I kept up a steady rate of practice I'd improve just as fast, if not faster.

 

[bubbaking]

SFP, correct me if I'm interpreting your latest post wrong, but you're basically saying that ZSS doing so well in MK-banned tourneys is an even larger indicator that she should move up?

 

[Seagull Joe]

What tourney is smashed together? Bubba keeps posting that and I don't know its significance.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

prob some local tournament that NR did well at lmao

 

[NickRiddle]

Apex Qualifier that had all of FL and some GA/AL IIRC.
I don't remember who went.

 

[Kuro~]

All of florida's best, player 1, big lou, reflex, drn.

 

[bubbaking]

37 entrants is pretty large for just a "local". <___<

Edit: Plus what Kuro said.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wasn't there.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

/loses all credibility

I am ashamed Kuro

 

[DMG]

You can't DI or SDI MK Tornado except for the first and last hit. Getting out, besides janky SDI on the first hit, is not really up to the player getting hit lol. Floaty/short characters tend to get swept up and out because certain hitbox/es of Tornado near the bottom do so, not because you were mashing jump/DI up

 

[Kuro~]

The papa's shame has no effect on me!

Lol. I could of swore there were 4 georgia peeps...

Oh well.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lol. I could of swore there were 4 georgia peeps...

You're just TRYING to sound like the least credible source on the planet, aren't you?

 

[bubbaking]

I was talking about the part where you said something about Salem having a "dream bracket full of MKs" or something like that and quoted me on it. All I said is that Salem did not prove that any of ZSS matchups are better than we previously thought, except Metaknight who was often seen as a contender for a -2 matchup.

Edit - That post: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15242486&postcount=11999

Well perhaps her 'current MU spread' isn't proper justification for her current tier list spot, similar to how Marth has the 3rd best MU spread in the game but his tier list spot doesn't reflect such a thing. If MU spreads were all there were, we wouldn't need a tier list.

You can't DI or SDI MK Tornado except for the first and last hit. Getting out, besides janky SDI on the first hit, is not really up to the player getting hit lol. Floaty/short characters tend to get swept up and out because certain hitbox/es of Tornado near the bottom do so, not because you were mashing jump/DI up

I'm not so sure about how true this is. Whenever I go MK against John12346 (rarely), he semi-consistently DI's out of the top of the tornado (before it finishes) and punishes me with a dair for doing it. He's even urged me not to spam 'nado against him because he can do this reliably.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth has the 3rd best MU spread in the game

Yeah
























































No.

 

[bubbaking]

Better examples are probably how Pika and Falco have better MU spreads than Snake and G&W has a better MU spread than every high tier except DDD and ZSS. Are you going to tell me that Game is a better character than Lucario? Oh, and don't get me started on DDD's MU spread and how non-indicative of his tier list position it actually is.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Pika / Falco actually have better spreads than Snake then they are better characters. Just because the tier list or the MU chart don't acknowledge this fact doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

[C.J.]

Marth has the 3rd best MU spread in the game but his tier list spot doesn't reflect such a thing. If MU spreads were all there were, we wouldn't need a tier list.

Over-inflated MUs

I'm not so sure about how true this is. Whenever I go MK against John12346 (rarely), he semi-consistently DI's out of the top of the tornado (before it finishes) and punishes me with a dair for doing it. He's even urged me not to spam 'nado against him because he can do this reliably.

You being bad at using tornado means nothing. John#s getting out of it is because you're using it poorly, not because he's doing anything.