Official BBR Tier List v7

[ぱみゅ]

I have to agree with Gheb in the sense Europe needs more exposure.
They need to get better overall in order their biggest contenders get a better challenge, and as consequence, they get better themselves.
Their problem is that most of them are more focused on being flashy than on learning their basics....

European Marths do well at home but not as well out of region. Marth does well at locals and poorly-to-average at majors, at least until this year. Marth did legitimately very well this year.

Other than MLG, ZSS didn't have many good results until one PIOSUMA and this Apex...
Marth has many non-wonderful, but good results during these 4 years....





Also, has anybody mentioned that Salem got lucky having not to face Vinnie?

 

[Gardex]

What on earth made you think I was comparing Marth to ZSS?

You seem to tie everything into anti-ZSS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What on earth made you think I was comparing Marth to ZSS?

You seem to tie everything into anti-ZSS.

That's because that's been the discussion here for several pages (because of me, love you guys). Sorry to have misunderstood you.

Also, has anybody mentioned that Salem got lucky having not to face Vinnie?

Yeah and it's a moot point. First, Vinne probably wasn't Salem's biggest worry, Dabuz was. You can say that about every winner of every major ever. If DEHF won without facing ESAM no one would have even brought it up.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Replying to MUs:

None of ZSS' MUs have "improved" but none of them were that bad to begin with, with the possible exception of Olimar. If Salem had run into Dabuz the results would have looked different. But you can say that about every winner of every major every year.

Yes, but if it had happened, you wouldn't be opening your mouth right now. That statement is an open admission to how much less this win means than it is made out to be. Results are not the end-all be-all because anyone can play a character hanging on the outskirts of viability and get the dream bracket. Salem did. He didn't run into an MK that was particularly knowledgeable in the MU. He didn't run into Dabunz or DEHF to prove anything about those MUs.

He played well and did well, but he did get lucky enough not to have to prove that somewhat viable is still viable, but you should not be marking this as the second coming of christ.

I like ZSS and I think she's pretty good, but I'm not a "fanboy." I've just kind of had it with the "results don't matter because I think X" attitude around here.

Results really don't mean **** at all. Results don't affect anything about whether or not a character is any more viable. They can be cited as an indicator, but once you start digging into this one, you'll notice that it doesn't really bring any new information to light.

Results don't matter because characters don't change. Results should be a red flag to look at something again, but you don't have any cause to go waving last weekend under someone's nose and saying to put ZSS above Snake like some people here.

 

[Gardex]

It's fine, I just thought it was clear when I opened my post with my topic

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah I know I'm not a top player Dirt (I've always said that I was a high-level player, but not a top-level player), my point was just that DRN's ZSS is on the same level as mine so I found it weird that I was being mentioned alongside Salem NR and Quik and he wasn't.
And yeah I know our region is bad lol

People should also be mentioning Dakpo but he's quit so I guess you have an excuse

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ryker, I haven't said much that most people weren't agreeing with like 2 months ago, that ZSS should be above Wario and possibly Marth and Pikachu.

And big tournament wins do matter as do all results, because they show that the theorycraft was right and that ZSS is a tournament viable character that can win.

You can say all you want but you've got to be able to prove it and Salem did.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Can we just accept that ZSS is a high tier and Salem managed to overcome a bunch of ****ty matchups to place first?

Also SFP I think we all can agree Wario is not a top tier at least.

< has beaten every wario that existed in his region relatively effortlessly

Zelda too stronk

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker, I haven't said much that most people weren't agreeing with like 2 months ago, that ZSS should be above Wario and possibly Marth and Pikachu.

And big tournament wins do matter as do all results, because they show that the theorycraft was right and that ZSS is a tournament viable character that can win.

You can say all you want but you've got to be able to prove it and Salem did.

Who else was saying possibly Marth and Pikachu, if I may ask you to back up your statement?

I would question their sanity when Marth has more as a character and has done more for the result mongers.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Who else was saying possibly Marth and Pikachu, if I may ask you to back up your statement?

I would question their sanity when Marth has more as a character and has done more for the result mongers.

I'm not going to go digging through 100s of pages to find it, sorry bro.

But what does "has more as a character" even mean? That's a completely meaningless un-provable statement with no quantifiable meaning. Again, you can say all you want about certain characters but what matters is whether or not they can win. Orion has been saying ZSS is terrible and flawed and booty for years but still manages to lose to her every time.

I'll say the same thing to you guys that you'd say to someone who came in suggesting Yoshi is top tier: put your money where your mouth is, like Salem has.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have to agree with Gheb in the sense Europe needs more exposure.
They need to get better overall in order their biggest contenders get a better challenge, and as consequence, they get better themselves.
Their problem is that most of them are more focused on being flashy than on learning their basics....

Why are you talking about things you don't know anything about? You don't know anything about the EU scene nor do you actually seem to understand what I am saying.

Can we just accept that ZSS is a high tier and Salem managed to overcome a bunch of ****ty matchups to place first?

But that's exactly what did not happen and why it would be foolish to assume ZSS to be top tier just like that. Salem overcame the MK match-up at Apex but he did not overcome ICs, Falco, Diddy or Olimar. So rather than him overcoming "a bunch of ****ty matchups" he overcame one pretty bad matchup and managed to avoid the others.

 

[Dabuz]

Just going to say I think ZSS is bottom of Top tier and have been saying that for a while now. Character has some godlike tools in her arsenal.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ICs is at worst even, Falco isn't any worse than MK. Diddy I think is pretty bad, but the rest of the ZSS universe disagrees with me, and Olimar is absolute ****. That match-up actually sucks. lol

But I'll say it again: had DEHF placed first, no one would be giving him **** for "avoiding" ESAM's Pikachu or Vinnie's ICs or anything. They'd just say "DEHF is good and he plays a top character" and let it go.

 

[Gardex]

quik does pretty well vs Olimar, though

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ICs is at worst even, Falco isn't any worse than MK. Diddy I think is pretty bad, but the rest of the ZSS universe disagrees with me, and Olimar is absolute ****.

But I'll say it again: had DEHF placed first, no one would be giving him **** for "avoiding" ESAM's Pikachu or Vinnie's ICs or anything. They'd just say "DEHF is good and he plays a top character" and let it go.

gtfo @ bolded. If ZSS were able to beat ICs then she should actually be doing so by now. Results between Vinnie, 9B, Salem and Nick are 5-0 for ICs though.
And nobody is giving Salem or anybody else "****" for avoiding the matchups. You're out of your mind.

@Gardy

quiK stayed a week or so at Nietono's place when he went to SRT. That man has so much top level Olimar exp, I doubt that there are many Olimar players that can take him on in this matchup. I'm pretty sure he does think the matchup blows though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dabuz has pooped on Salem like 3 times now, I think he also has lost to L-cancel. NR lost to Denti. V115 I think beat tinman a few times or once, or something but usually loses (correct me if I'm wrong V).

Quik does OK, but the match-up is probably not good.

gtfo @ bolded. If ZSS were able to beat ICs then she should actually be doing so by now. Results between Vinnie, 9B, Salem and Nick are 5-0 for ICs though.

And nobody is giving Salem or anybody else "****" for avoiding the matchups. You're our of your mind.

This is absolutely true. My facebook wall has been lighting up with how lucky salem's bracket was, and several people are saying so in this thread.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm not going to go digging through 100s of pages to find it, sorry bro.

But what does "has more as a character" even mean? That's a completely meaningless un-provable statement with no quantifiable meaning. Again, you can say all you want about certain characters but what matters is whether or not they can win. Orion has been saying ZSS is terrible and flawed and booty for years but still manages to lose to her every time.

I'll say the same thing to you guys that you'd say to someone who came in suggesting Yoshi is top tier: put your money where your mouth is, like Salem has.

Seriously? Then don't act like what you're requesting has been fairly common opinion for months.

Read that last sentence. Your fanboy is still showing.

She doesn't have a ****ing grab and, as a result, struggles more with coping with her terrible Oli MU than Marth ever will with his MK and D3 MUs.

I figured that much is obvious considering that I've been talking about how Salem's wins don't cause you to need to reconsider the bad match-ups that lead to her current placement.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You seem to misinterpret everything I'm saying. My point is that Salem didn't overcome a lot of her bad matchups. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Every character in B tier has bad match-ups, several of them are against really dumb characters too

Falco for C tier obviously

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

She doesn't have a ****ing grab and, as a result, struggles more with coping with her terrible Oli MU than Marth ever will with his MK and D3 MUs.

I figured that much is obvious considering that I've been talking about how Salem's wins don't cause you to need to reconsider the bad match-ups that lead to her current placement.

Either blind or deflecting like a four year old. Unsure which.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I just don't think it's worth replying to. Falco struggles pretty profoundly with Pikachu because he gets CG'd to like 100% and then dies lol. Good characters have ****ty match-ups. They don't always run into them. It happens.

And ZSS doesn't lose the Mu because of her grab, she loses because among other reasons, her hitboxes don't linger long enough, which means she has trouble cutting through the Pikmin wall. If anything her grab is used more in this match-up than in most because it outranges Olimar's slightly.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sfp you are so bad.... keep this **** goin guys im bored and need **** to read

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Go home, mahabra, you're drunk again.

 

[Ussi]

ZSS obviously has a pretty good MK MU so ZSS should be top tier for being able to handle MK very well.

MK heavy brackets aren't out of the ordinary.

 

[Dabuz]

The MU is barely in Olimar's advantage, anyone saying that it is a horrible MU doesn't know ****.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I just don't think it's worth replying too. Falco struggles pretty profoundly with Pikachu because he gets CG'd to like 100% and then dies lol.

And ZSS doesn't lose the Mu because of her grab, she loses because among other reasons, her hitboxes don't linger long enough, which means she has trouble cutting through the Pikmin wall.

And then she has nothing to do when she does get there because she doesn't have a grab and it's a terribly match-up.

Falco dominated Pikachu on MU discussions before the CG was discovered and for a good reason. He has the tools not to get grabbed in the relatively small range that the CG is applicable and to win if he doesn't get grab molested. It's definitely not as bad a MU and it is a MU against a character that has much lower top level representation than Olimar.




Let's try it really slow then. First, why should I think ZSS should go above Marth?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The MU is barely in Olimar's advantage, anyone saying that it is a horrible MU doesn't know ****.

Care to explain why?

I'm sure people will take this opportunity to jump on me, but I'm not the only ZSS main who hates this MU. NR is picking up ICs to deal with it for example lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And then she has nothing to do when she does get there because she doesn't have a grab and it's a terribly match-up.

Look I have to go, so I don't have time to reply to this thread now. But that's not true: Olimar is one of the characters that ZSS' full jab combo connects on, so once she's close she can get a jab and follow it up with whatever.

 

[infiniteV115]

NR isn't picking up ICs to deal with it anymore, he lost to Denti cause he has no Oli exp at all.
It's a -2/-3 MU if you're not well-versed in it. It's a -1 for people like me/Dakpo/Quik.

I wanted to play Denti but I forgot to ask him to MM, and I 3-0'd Fino in a MM (and he's apparently 5-0 with Dakpo in bracket lol).

It's not a terrible MU. It's our worst MU but not a terrible one.

Also, Gheb has the sexiest accent of all time. You guys don't even know.

 

[pidgezero_one]

How much does it really matter if certain players are top-level or not? Why should their accomplishments be ignored? We have non-top-level players on MU panels, where MUs have at least some influence on the tier list, don't we? :s

 

[Dabuz]

Care to explain why?

I'm sure people will take this opportunity to jump on me, but I'm not the only ZSS main who hates this MU. NR is picking up ICs to deal with it for example lol

ZSS is one of the few characters who can safely pressure Olimar, back air, dsmash, and side-B are all safe unless Olimar either perfect shields OR commits extremely hard to a read and punish. That means ZSS can eventually crack open Olimar and punish him, and when she punishes Olimar, she punishes hard. Dsmash gives her a lot of ledge control and landing control, along with upair frame traps she juggles Olimar about as good as Diddy, which is really good. A simple dash attack at mid percents puts Olimar in a situation where he could be read and punished badly. Her mobility makes it hard for Olimar to keep up with her so more often than not, she's only going to die by getting read pretty hard. Olimar will probably die around 140%, but seeing him die around 90% due to a nice bair or fair is common.

On the Olimar side, we win slightly because of side-B and upsmash OOS. Our side-B forces an approach or ZSS to stale bair/ jab. But even then, ZSS will take good damage from side-B. Due to ZSS having safe on shield options, it's hard for her to make a mistake. However, she's forced to mixup and approach with jab/ dash attack/ grab at some point, and Olimar's JC US OOS is extremely potent at punishing jab / dash attack, while grab just needs to be avoided obviously. Fsmash and grab are also very obviously good tools the just forces ZSS to do SOMETHING or lose. Olimar will kill her around 120% fairly easily, and when she is in the air, Olimar juggles well. Olimar's purples limit her options and when Olimar farms for them, it makes time ever more important. Also, armor pieces can be a pain to deal with as Olimar, just like most characters.

ZSS is definitely playing against the clock in this MU and will lose if she lets Olimar gets enough side-B chip along with using fsmash and grab to create a proper wall. Olimar will lose if he lets ZSS pressure with safe options and a few mixups that should lead to strong strings.

 

[Espy Rose]

It also shows just how important it is to have a winnable MU vs. MK. If a character doesn't, they're done.

But no one has a winnable MU vs. MK.

So rather than him overcoming "a bunch of ****ty matchups" he overcame one pretty bad matchup and managed to avoid the others.

Zero Suit vs. Meta Knight is a bad match up?
Isn't it only -1?

 

[ViperGold42]

But no one has a winnable MU vs. MK.



Zero Suit vs. Meta Knight is a bad match up?
Isn't it only -1?

yeah it is only -1. not the hardest MU in the world, should see her move up next tier list.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Man I really want to friendly Dabuz at APEX. Now all I can remember with him is mafia.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

I personally see ZSS moving up a spot or two but thats just my speculation

 

[1PokeMastr]

Zss is going to move up, you can't really ignore the fact she took first at Apex.

I'm sorry people, she's better than you gave her credit for.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

actually i'd rather watch from this angle

 

[1PokeMastr]

I think you're facing away from our Galaxy at that angle.

 

[Lukingordex]

Now I can expect ZSS having a even against MK in the next MU chart.

 

[bubbaking]

im not salty pit didn't do anything. i never actually expect him too.

Actually, props to Earth for making it in to the top 32! He, Nakat, and Shaky were the only three players to make it that high with non-High Tier chars. Then again, I always thought (and argued) that Pit and Fox should be High Tier, sooooo.....

ICs didn't do very well at Apex and the best ICs players in the world were there and in good form.

Uh, when you remove all the MKs from the results, the ICs collectively have the best results in all of Apex '13, after the Marths. They did better than all the Olis, except for Dabuz (an outlier), and ALL the Diddys, even ADHD. These results actually suggest that the ICs should be #2 on the tier lists, seeing as how all three of the important ICs (9B, Vinnie, and ESAM) placed just outside of the top 8 and outplaced all of the non-MK chars who are above them on the current tier list (except Dabuz). The ICs have consistently done well at Apex, at other nationals in the US, and at large tourneys in Japan.

Edit: The only people who outplaced the ICs were Salem (outlier), the Marths (the only one to collectively outplace the ICs), one Oli main (outlier), and one Falco (outlier). Everyone else got bodied.

ZSS is already a good character. She isn't good enough to pass all those other characters in front of her though, maybe 1. No need to go crazy and say she's top tier lol

Well, just raising ZSS one spot would make her Top Tier.....

It's not well for what were widely considered to be the second best character in the game on a conservative stagelist. Especially when all the best Icys in the world were present.

But as we saw with Anti vs 9b, the timeout strategy is just way too powerful against Icys.


Anti 2-0ed 9b with two timeouts. He took the lead and didn't approach at all. Your point is false. If arguably the best Icys in the world can't counter timeouts, it's clearly a viable strategy vs them.

This shouldn't matter much 'cause it's MK, the #1 best character in the game. He's SUPPOSED to beat/place higher than the ICs and everyone else. He can time out EVERYBODY. How a top MK-main, like Anti, 2-0'd an ICs main through timeouts really shouldn't factor much into how good the ICs are compared to everyone else. The ICs' results, on the other hand, proved otherwise, once you clean out all the MKs.

MN actually came the closest to beating Salem along with M2K in GF.

M2K didn't even really come close to beating Salem, because that was just set 1. He didn't even get to reset the bracket. Salem really took this entire tournament rather dominantly. GFs were hype, but they weren't close.

Fair enough but all the same, having trips potentially decide such high stakes and close sets is really unacceptable. I really don't get why they haven't been patched out yet with all these other Brawl mods so rampant.

I think it's standard policy that we use unmodded games as the tourney standard. We shouldn't force everyone who wants to play this game to hack/mod their Wii and/or buy an SD card or some similar device just to play this game. To play and practice competitively for ANY game, one should only need two things: the game and the system; that's it. Requiring more is really unfair, imo.