Official BBR Tier List v6

[Metro_Knight]

marth will not be top 3 imo. He goes even with too many mid tiers to warrant being third

Falco also goes even with many mid tiers as well...

The difference is that Falco has medium-hard matchups with ICs/Pikachu. Marth is in the disadvantage against Diddy yes, but it could hardly be considered a hard counter. He also has a noticeable advantage vs. Wario. In my opinion, Marth at least has potential to pass Falco with MK out of the picture.

But, besides the Diddy/Wario thing and the IC/Pika for Falco, I think the mid-tier matchups with Falco and Marth are about equal, which to me makes what you said not apply when debating Marth vs. Falco for 3rd spot.

As for what Shaya said, depending on how many people start playing Diddy Kong or Ice Climbers, it may prove more important to fare at an even level against Diddy Kong than Ice Climbers/Pikachu/anything else Marth can do better than Falco.

Also, I had a question.. on the match-up index, it says that Marth has a +1 vs. Snake. If that's true, or rather, if Marth can play Snake even slightly better than Falco can, that might also come into play, possibly as much as the Diddy situation.

 

[Shaya]

There's a "dream" of

Marth > Snake > Diddy > Marth
but it's in the air about how applicable this is.

Ice Climbers is likely to have a much larger impact on any sort of tri/quad/quintforce of toptierness.

If Ice Climbers are as good in match ups that their mains are arguing (even with snake, advantage on marth, diddy, falco, pikachu, olimar and wario), then ICs will be the dominant force in the future by leagues and bounds.

However, if ICs dominate as hard as they 'could', characters like Toon Link, Zero Suit and Lucario get a lot of nods.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ice Climbers is likely to have a much larger impact on any sort of tri/quad/quintforce of toptierness.

If Ice Climbers are as good in match ups that their mains are arguing (even with snake, advantage on marth, diddy, falco, pikachu, olimar and wario), then ICs will be the dominant force in the future by leagues and bounds.

However, if ICs dominate as hard as they 'could', characters like Toon Link, Zero Suit and Lucario get a lot of nods.

Ice Climbers are a possible dominant force...they **** mid tiers and low tiers as hard if not harder than MK :/

I doubt they go even with Snake or beat Diddy though, and some of their strength is certainly a result of the bias in the stage list.

 

[Cassio]

Itll be ICs + someone. With ICs + MK out of the picture theres a void to fill.

Looking at the recent success of Vinnie and ESAMs ICs you see two possibilities. I think wario is potentially a third. I think the concept of the solo IC main has died with swordgard and meep; and Vinnie, ESAM and Lain have done enough to dispell the rumor that you cant comain/second with ICs.

 

[Tesh]

ICs is hard to rank because they never seem to be successful alone. They are just a piece of the puzzle. A glass cannon.

Hard to compare the success of any top ICs to Gnes, ADHD, Razer, Ally (back when he is 99.9% Snake), Mikehaze, DEHF etc.

If MK's ban results in a more fair starter list, they might not even be contenders for top 5.

 

[theunabletable]

if we had a more fair starter list, ICs would get better.

 

[Tesh]

I said fair, not flat.

 

[BlueXenon]

With MK gone, Pits metagame will start getting better and he can be a top tier.

 

[theunabletable]

I said fair, not flat.

a bit overboard with the synonyms

Actually I could see Pit being good with MK gone, but there isn't really anyone in America that plays him, so he probably still won't do any better lol

 

[vVv Rapture]

Just because MK gets banned doesn't mean everyone else gets magically better.

Bad characters will still be bad.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just because MK gets banned doesn't mean everyone else gets magically better.

Bad characters will still be bad.

Too true

Not everyone can get better you guys, not everyone Marth and below on the tier list can move up, unless you think Snake, Diddy and Falco are bottom tier now or something.

That means Fox, Wolf, Peach, DK, Kirby, Pit, etc. will not become top tier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I like to think that Sheik will see more use with Meta Knight gone.

 

[Conviction]

I don't think characters will make expotential jumps, I just think tier/character placing gaps will close if characters' metagames advance like I think they will.

 

[NickRiddle]

With MK gone, Pits metagame will start getting better and he can be a top tier.

Pit is bad without MK.

 

[Ghostbone]

I like to think that Sheik will see more use with Meta Knight gone.

MK isn't holding Sheik back...at all >.>

 

[TheReflexWonder]

MK isn't holding Sheik back...at all >.>

You're not being serious, are you?

Sure, it's not a hard counter, but it's definitely one of those "why bother when you can pick someone better/easier" things.

Plus, Sheik is another character who moves as quickly as Meta Knight. Tilts all day, frame traps, and bad horizontal aerial mobility.

 

[Fuujin]

MK isn't holding Sheik back...at all >.>

Lol mte.
She actually did decently against MK until she got in the air.
With MK gone youre likely to see more ICs.
She still loses to Lucario, Pikachu, Kirby and has AT LEAST -1 with everyone above high tier except like 3 or 4 characters.
MK being gone isn't suddenly going to make her much more viable.

 

[Kuro~]

Pit is bad without MK.

Lol wut?

 

[Shaya]

Pit is *still* bad without MK.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well lets look at it this way

pit is even with snake, diddy, falco, olimar, pikachu, lucario, zss, and TL in high tier
pit beats DDD
pit loses to wario, marth, g&w, ICs. non of these are counter advantage bar wario

ZSS is even with olimar, g&w, lucario
ZSS beats ICs, DDD, and TL
ZSS loses to diddy, snake, falco, wario, marth, and pikachu. only falco is counter advantage



pit may be bad to you nickriddle but at least he doesn't suck as bad as ZSS

 

[Meru.]

Pit is still decent without MK.

But he likely wont rise simply because everyone can compete better now.

EDIT: Nonetheless he will never ever be better than Zero **** Samus.

 

[infiniteV115]

Maharba, you don't actually think Pit is better than ZSS, do you?

 

[Flayl]

well lets look at it this way

pit is even with snake, diddy, falco, olimar, pikachu, lucario, zss, and TL in high tier
pit beats DDD
pit loses to wario, marth, g&w, ICs. non of these are counter advantage bar wario

ZSS is even with olimar, g&w, lucario
ZSS beats ICs, DDD, and TL
ZSS loses to diddy, snake, falco, wario, marth, and pikachu. only falco is counter advantage



pit may be bad to you nickriddle but at least he doesn't suck as bad as ZSS

The only thing this tells me is that Pit's matchups are overrated.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I didn't know Pit was actually even with all of those characters lol. I call bull****.

 

[BlueXenon]

Pit's match ups will get much better once more people start using him and his metagame gets better.
Here are Pits pro's and con's and his con's are not so bad.
Pro's~ Great projectile, choice of 3 hit jab combo or infinite jab, 2 reflectors, 4 jumps and glide, great edge guarder, great recovery.
Cons~ Weak attacks, recovery can be ruined, slow aerial movement, laggy aerials, difficult to land a KO.
I don't know if this is a pro, but I think Pit does not need to approach any character because of his projectile and projectile reflectors.

 

[Steam]

The only thing this tells me is that Pit's matchups are overrated.

THISSSSS

if pit had matchups that good he would actually place. but he doesn't...

 

[infiniteV115]

I can see him going even with Oli Lucario ZSS and TL, and maybe Pika
Definitely think he loses to Snake Diddy and Falco

And I'd say ZSS:Marth is even

 

[Steam]

pit goes even with lucario.

 

[phi1ny3]

I like to think that Sheik will see more use with Meta Knight gone.

I am honestly inclined to agree. Even w/ the gimmicks of the MU, it's not as much of the mentality as it is that the character's strengths are too similarly emulated (and in MK's case, augmented) to make her much of a choice. Now that he's gone, we might see a little more of her. Imo the MK MU is probably her worst one not involving a CG in the opponent's favor (imo Kirby and Marth more or less are overrated in their favor, definitely +2 across both).

Her ground and tilt game are pretty awesome, not gonna lie. And Zelda, while still being terribad, at least uncounter her counters like ICs/Pika (mind you, they aren't even close to even as some imply <_<), at least until the said MU changer doesn't work anymore (like Pika's death CG).

She's definitely got appeal and potential from stuff that hasn't even been abused/fully explored yet, and she's just barely starting to get more showcasing which hopefully leads to rep (w/ Earth's match v. Gnes, and Judo). I really wish Cross and Daiki could make it to Apex, they're really talented with Sheik and definitely make her look impressive.

@Pit discussion:
I can see snake, ZSS, Luc, Pika, TL, and maaaaaybe Olimar (Japanese Olimars say otherwise, they beat even a character that borders on counter, like ICs lol).

iirc Falco slightly trumps Pit even in Japan, and Diddy is sorta a tossup to what I see in Japan.

 

[phi1ny3]

Agh I'm dumb, double post.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

People are just now realizing that Pit's MUs were mad overhyped?

 

[Steam]

People are just now realizing that Pit's MUs were mad overhyped?

I've always thought that... but people think I'm stupid for trusting results more than theorycraft sooooo yeah.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've always thought that... but people think I'm stupid for trusting results more than theorycraft sooooo yeah.

Results say his MUs aren't that good though. >_>

 

[Steam]

Results say his MUs aren't that good though. >_>

exactly. that's why I think his MUs are overrated. :/

 

[Tesh]

But he has TWO ways of reflecting bananas and grenades. He can also kill pikmin with nair and stagespike lucario with arrow loops. Its gotta be even.

 

[BlueXenon]

I think if Pit's metagame catches up to the rest of the characters, then he will become a high tier, maybe he will be as high as Wario.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No.

Just flat out no.

 

[Orion*]

There's a "dream" of

Marth > Snake > Diddy > Marth
but it's in the air about how applicable this is.

Ice Climbers is likely to have a much larger impact on any sort of tri/quad/quintforce of toptierness.

If Ice Climbers are as good in match ups that their mains are arguing (even with snake, advantage on marth, diddy, falco, pikachu, olimar and wario), then ICs will be the dominant force in the future by leagues and bounds.

However, if ICs dominate as hard as they 'could', characters like Toon Link, Zero Suit and Lucario get a lot of nods.

I never think ICs will be to popular.
Inconsistent character because of nana/tripping no matter how broken overall
Placing a sign that yells camp me on your forhead
Nobody will ever want to friendly you
Mass amount of tech skill

detracts from people wanting to pick them up. brawl scene is lazy

I like to think that Sheik will see more use with Meta Knight gone.

I doubt it although I hope so...
I just changed my controls back to something I can use with her again, so I'm going to try repicking her back up. I lost like all of my tech skill now though jesus

well lets look at it this way

pit is even with snake, diddy, falco
pit beats DDD

Jesus I almost threw up looking at these numbers :|
Why are all the fairy boy mains so optimistic about their character...
*fml*

I've always thought that... but people think I'm stupid for trusting results more than theorycraft sooooo yeah.

I think pits MU's suck WITH theory craft also so LOL

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i love how yall say we have no results to prove this and that we over-rate our MUs. do i really have to go through and post every single top placing for pit at major tournaments since 2010 again (actually last time i just did the last 6 months)? do i have to point out that it takes 2 character boards to discuss a MU. just had the pit falco discussion in the falco boards, consensus is, as damn near always, even.

diddy discussion ended with.... even.

olimar discussion ended with..... even.

zss discussion ended with.... even.

pika discussion ended with.... even.


i can go on all day about how both boards came to a consensus about our MUs.

i can go through and post and point out characters we outplace in tourney and point out japan stuff and european stuff and koolaid and kiraflax and luckay stuff and since hes been using him more recently krystedez stuff. and you will all just look at it, ignore it and continue to be hatin. we've proven the character over and over again, posted this crap multiple times. but whatever, put him where-ever on the tier list you want him, doesn't mean crap if our results say otherwise (you know the results yall never bother to actually look at)






















*insert overused xyro quote*

 

[vVv Rapture]

Pit before MK ban: ****, I have to deal with everyone plus MK all the time
Pit after MK ban: ****, I have to deal with everyone still

Because Pit is still a crappy character.