Official BBR Tier List v6

[TheReflexWonder]

After testing, I've found that PT can reliably Zero Switch on four of the seven neutral stages. X vs. Squirtle is now potentially guaranteed on Game 1.

 

[Kantrip]

LC
YI:B
PS1
SV

Is it these four?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you would think the platforms at CS would work when they are disapearing too

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 1. As far as I can tell, the movement on the YI:B platform is randomized, and therefore unreliable.

 

[Kantrip]

Ah I see. Makes sense.

 

[Meru.]

Yay is from the netherlands


US Olimars think they win the MU

Ah ok. Well, slap them for me.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Cassio]

Does zero-switching affect fatigue? i.e. can you play squirtle at full power throughout the match? Dont really know much about PT.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does zero-switching affect fatigue? i.e. can you play squirtle at full power throughout the match? Dont really know much about PT.

It doesn't affect fatigue any more than normal switching (as in, you get 1.66 seconds of "energy" for every second the Pokemon isn't in play), but a big part of it is that when a Pokemon is KO'd, the fatigue number is multiplied by 0.3 (as in, 70% of it goes away instantly), so you normally don't have to camp much to get a lot more Squirtle time in.

If a Pokemon is KO'd at maximum fatigue (a value of 200, which usually takes more than two minutes to get to), and you were to Zero Switch twice in a quick-but-reasonable amount of time (let's say fifteen seconds, since you'll sit on the invincibility platform for a bit), you'd still have about a minute of fresh Squirtle before he starts to get tired again.

If you can camp for 40 seconds (which isn't very hard in most matchups, given that Squirtle and Charizard are both great at it, and Ivysaur can't really do anything else), that Pokemon will be completely fit, and all of these numbers are lowered if you're not KO'd after getting camped forever, so it's quite doable in many matchups.

Also of note is the fact that Zero Switching repeatedly throughout the match is pretty safe, and that you can keep your fatigue down that way if the opponent tries to camp you.

 

[Orion*]

I used to play MK because I just loved his playstyle and liked his character. I was proban and actually promoted the whole MK ban thing in Finland so I quit after he was banned. I kinda miss those times

Why... jesus that just sounds dumb im sorry :|

DK without a LGL will be like 4th on a tier list

LOOOOOL
no

DK is ***. He would definitely win more but like, he still shouldnt get the lead

 

[san.]

DK's planking is nullified by how many actual offensive options he has from the ledge (especially at 100+)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

YI platform movement isn't randomized. it is based on how people land on it (like a really weird and slow teter toter)

iirc

 

[TheReflexWonder]

YI platform movement isn't randomized. it is based on how people land on it (like a really weird and slow teter toter)

iirc

It definitely moves around if you're not on it, though. I watched it for a few minutes today in two separate matches without touching a controller and it appeared to have no rhyme or reason.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i know that it does move on it's own as well but im pretty sure when you jump on it, it has an effect on it's movement.

DeLux namesearch and inform us please

 

[Ripple]

DK's planking is nullified by how many actual offensive options he has from the ledge (especially at 100+)

he has more options than lots of the cast, I'm surprised how many people don't know this yet or worse yet, ignore it.

@orion, yeah, more of a joke but he'd rocket up the tier list for sure. he's 20th right now? he'd move up to like 10th-12th

 

[Orion*]

he has more options than lots of the cast, I'm surprised how many people don't know this yet or worse yet, ignore it.

@orion, yeah, more of a joke but he'd rocket up the tier list for sure. he's 20th right now? he'd move up to like 10th-12th

:|

I already think DK is to high currently.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

i dunno it seems weird to me that olimar sits so close to the middle of the tier list. i feel like if his metagame ever really develops he'll prove to be much higher or a little lower.

 

[Shaya]

@Olimar
9th best in the game
38 listed characters.
Within the top quarter of the tier list...

Where are you even looking? lol.

 

[E-123 Epsilon]

I love Mr. Game and Watch!

Nice tier, but why is zero-suit lower than regular samus?

 

[san.]

he has more options than lots of the cast, I'm surprised how many people don't know this yet or worse yet, ignore it.

@orion, yeah, more of a joke but he'd rocket up the tier list for sure. he's 20th right now? he'd move up to like 10th-12th

UpB (barely hit anything), Getup attack <=100, jump up and air dodge, jump + uair (barely hit anything)

Turnaround wind to bair or upB, punch, upB to the stage, simple jump at ledge.

I'm not sure if there's much else that isn't very laggy.

As far as attacking goes, getup attack and wind to bair are nice. Only problem with bair is the time it takes to let go and wind to change direction (unless there is a really quick way I don't know about)

When I said that the planking was nullified, I meant that DK has to go well out of his way to hit someone, defeating the purpose of trying to stay safe with planking, **unless the opponent actually jumps offstage, then DK has some nice things.

 

[infiniteV115]

I love Mr. Game and Watch!

Nice tier, but why is zero-suit lower than regular samus?

If by "lower", you mean that her number (12) is lower than Samus' (33), then that's because the lower (closer to 1) your number is, the better you are. ZSS is much better than Samus.
Conventionally when X is closer to #1 than Y, we say that X is "higher" than Y on the tier list.
Perhaps you just got your words mixed up, but yeah ZSS is MUCH better than Samus.

Honestly I think Samus is underrated, but I may be misinformed and simplifying everything. Other than floatiness and problems killing, does she really have any significant flaws? Are these 2 significant enough to put her all the way at the bottom of the tier list? I've seen Samus players do some pretty amazing things with Samus, I don't think she should be lower than PT.
Someone informmeplz

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

floatiness isn't always a bad thing. it's really just her sever lack of killing power. i mean **** squirtle has more killing power in one throw than she does in her whole moveset. her only semi reliable way of getting kills before 180% is gimping (which is why her floatiness isn't a bad thing). you can't win if you can't kill and that alone puts her as low as she is

imo

 

[Linkshot]

You can win without killing if you can camp well.
Sadly her arsenal just isn't damaging enough.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well yeah but im looking at a match from actual gameplay perspective. in MUs for samus like snake, DDD, and even like DK who all normally live till like 180% anyways, not being able to kill until around 225% is kinda ridiculous

 

[Linkshot]

Are you saying camping for 8 minutes isn't actual gameplay?
It's basically what Jiggs and Yoshi revolve around. And it works.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, D-Tilt is somewhat quick and KOs at around 140%. Not bad, especially for Samus.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

no im saying not dying for 8 mins isn't actual gameplay. i play pit, all i do is camp. doesn't mean when im a stock down that i can just camp the rest of the match, i need a way to take their stock so that camping actually matters. you have to be able to get kills when you need them, it's how you actually win. this shouldn't be a hard thing to grasp

@reflex

forgot about that, but still that move is hard to set up for. and snake and DDD still ain't dying from that before 180%

but i agree it's bad for samus

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Eh...D-Tilt is hard to set up for in the way that there's no reason the opponent can't just shield whenever Samus is nearby...which, to be fair, is definitely a large problem, heh.

As for Snake and Dedede, they die to Charge Shot at about 140%, and it's really easy to hit them with that while they're recovering. Sweetspot Z-Air knocks Snake off of his Cypher, and if he's used his jump to get height on that Cypher, he's an easy shot. Z-Air eats Dedede's recovery alive until he has to Up-B, which is easily Charge Shot-able. If either of them go low, they have to worry about D-Air and bombs.

Still, gotta get them off-stage. :x

 

[Scatz]

Are you saying camping for 8 minutes isn't actual gameplay?
It's basically what Jiggs and Yoshi revolve around. And it works.

Yoshi does not revolve around camping for 8 minutes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Are you saying camping for 8 minutes isn't actual gameplay?
It's basically what Jiggs and Yoshi revolve around. And it works.

Where the hell did you get that kind of idea that Yoshi camps for 8 minutes?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Where the hell did you get that kind of idea that Yoshi camps for 8 minutes?

Because the character is pretty good at staying safe. I think super-campy Yoshi is totally usable.

 

[Linkshot]

I saw it working a tournament in Montreal against D3 and figured that's the best way Yoshi can play.

And then went on the believe it's the best way any character in Brawl can play.

 

[Sinister Slush]

against D3

No wonder... Egglay/EggToss is literally the MU for Yoshi vs D3.

 

[Scatz]

I saw it working a tournament in Montreal against D3 and figured that's the best way Yoshi can play.

And then went on the believe it's the best way any character in Brawl can play.

It's not optimal for every matchup (as Yoshi). He has to approach about a third of his matchups. Others, yeah, he can camp the living daylights out of a few of them and win.

 

[Roller]

Gheb is right, snake doesnt lose to pika. He gets destroyed

But yeah, with wolf and maybe fox if both players are at an even skill level pika still needs to know the MU for it to be that bad for wolf. Actually thats probably not very true for fox unfortunately.

I disagree. See DLA vs Kain.


Also, @Seagull. Pika v Snake is even.

 

[DMG]

Lol it's fine, Snake is a god and doesn't lose any MU's. He might have a few 6:4 and 55:45 against him, but that's not losing.


Hueuhuehuheuheuheue

 

[Orion*]

Where the hell did you get that kind of idea that Yoshi camps for 8 minutes?

Deltagod

 

[Metro_Knight]

My thoughts concerning roughly top/high tier with Meta Knight out of the picture:

A: Marth, Snake, Falco, Diddy, in no particular order.

The only two things I'm relatively positive about is Marth being in the top 3 at least, and Diddy Kong no longer keeping the status of second best to MK. But these four will all be really close, and although I don't think Diddy will be #1, I think that the margin between the four is so close that any very good Diddy player will be able to continue to do well in any tournament.

(Reasoning behind this is obviously that Marth's worst match up is MK, and that Diddy was probably the most difficult match up for MK, and I believe that's part of the reason he has passed the others.)

B: Ice Climbers, Wario (interchangeable) -> Olimar -> King Dedede, Pikachu (interchangeable)

These for the most part could go a lot of different ways, but this is just what I am predicting.

I'm not completely sure D3 will get that large of a rise, but I generally believe he will because other than MK countering him, he also has some advantage over Snake, Marth, and Wario, who will probably see higher usage with MK gone.

C: Toon Link -> Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game & Watch (interchangeable)

Mostly the only thing to say here is that with MK gone, and a rise in all other high/top tier characters, I believe Toon Link will take the #10 spot. He doesn't seem to have any hard counters, although obviously not completely even with the top of the top, he has the potential for a relatively even match up with any of the characters above him, where as Lucario, ZSS, and G&W have more trouble with a few characters.

-----

Post Script

I realize that I may have reiterated many people's thoughts, and that all of what I have expressed is more of a conglomerate of more so other people's inputs and experiences than strictly my own opinions, but I felt that compiling my thoughts here, while not exactly contributing anything anyone hasn't already said throughout this board, wouldn't be any harm.

 

[Ripple]

marth will not be top 3 imo. He goes even with too many mid tiers to warrant being third

 

[DMG]

I'd rather take even than have to deal with disadvantages like Falco vs IC's

 

[Shaya]

Marth will not be top 3 imo because

HE LOSES TO DIDDY.
and his match up with ICs isn't definitive.