Official BBR Tier List v6

[Maharba the Mystic]

stop double posting bro, just edit your old post

 

[NeoBatou]

stop double posting bro, just edit your old post

Bah, let a moderator deal with double posting.

Throwing this out there.

Captain Falcon vs Olimar

-3 in Olimar's favor.....

 

[L user]

I disagree with the placement of link, but I guess in general this could be true. Link belongs in a higher tier when played correctly

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No he doesn't.

 

[Chuee]

No he doesn't.

damn, that was harsh

 

[Twinkles]

I like it when people say "if played correctly"

Like

Ice Climbers should be god tier

if played correctly

 

[Ussi]

Ike is trash, when played against correctly PSing all his moves.

 

[Twinkles]

Ike is trash.

Teehee I'm so witty

(no offense to y'all Ike mains)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Teehee I'm so witty

(no offense to y'all Ike mains)

*walks in*

*stabs Twinkles with a rusty pen knife*

*walks out*

 

[Linkshot]

Well Ike still has a jab game. That could get around powershielding.
If people played correctly against correct ICs, would they still get grabbed?

Offtopic why have I never seen you at an Ottawa tourney you clearly live close enough or something :|

 

[Ussi]

.................................................................................



Niddo just moved there


and has no money




and i wasn't seriously about PSing all of Ike's move (on reaction mind you), i was just stating a funny stereotype some people used too/still have about Ike.

 

[Linkshot]

I was mostly joking, cut me slack.

Also it's still something that's fun to discuss.

 

[OverLade]

There's no such thing as playing correctly because in some matchups that requires literally outplaying your opponent in every situation. For example, MK can play against ICs without getting grabbed (though he will take damage from aerials from choosing other options), but other characters can, because not getting grabbed means always choosing the correct rock paper scissors option.

Imagine playing rock paper scissors and beating your opponent 100 rounds in a row. No matter how "smart" of a player you are, and how good your reactions are, assuming you're not outplaying your opponent by a 100-0 margin you'll create opportunities for your ICs opponent to get grabs if they have good enough reactions/guesses.

Metaknight has biased our language because he's the reason people say "Character X wins the matchup". There's no such thing as "WINNING" a matchup outside of MK. Every other matchup has a calculable matchup ratio, while MK has matchups that can be made unwinnable at almost any skill level. When skill stops factoring in, that's when a character "wins" a matchup.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

.................................................................................



Niddo just moved there


and has no money

As in "I'm still in a hotel" just moved in. lol

And Ottawa is a loooong ways away.

 

[Ghostbone]

There's no such thing as playing correctly because in some matchups that requires literally outplaying your opponent in every situation. For example, MK can play against ICs without getting grabbed (though he will take damage from aerials from choosing other options), but other characters can, because not getting grabbed means always choosing the correct rock paper scissors option.

Imagine playing rock paper scissors and beating your opponent 100 rounds in a row. No matter how "smart" of a player you are, and how good your reactions are, assuming you're not outplaying your opponent by a 100-0 margin you'll create opportunities for your ICs opponent to get grabs if they have good enough reactions/guesses.

That's a pretty extreme thing to say about IC.
Especially since you can force them to be in a position where they can't chain-grab you.
And while one guess in certain situations from them might lead to a grab, one guess in pretty much any situation from the other player leads to them getting hit, and often Nana being separated from Popo. And when Nana dies that might as well be a stock loss.

 

[Tesh]

I can't imagine such a glass cannon being the best. As someone pointed out before, ICs are definitely worth using and are situationally very strong, but come on. When has a solo ICs main ever done nearly as well as solo mains of any other character above mid tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's the wrongest thing I've ever heard from somebody I actually have respect for.

Link could rise a couple of spots tho

 

[Linkshot]

Link's problem is lack of mains due to steep learning curve with low reward.

 

[Ussi]

Link's problem is he dies too easily (recovery..) and has average (reliable) kill power.

He has a sword and projectiles, but it doesn't help him with his below average mobility with average disjoint range. Claw does nice, but he needs more than that...

 

[Yikarur]

thats why low tier tournaments should be more common (not with the low tier in this list though :/ )

low tier tournaments were standard in germany and we have a lot of lower tier mains too.

:D

 

[Yikarur]

Link's problem is he dies too easily (recovery..) and has average (reliable) kill power.

He has a sword and projectiles, but it doesn't help him with his below average mobility with average disjoint range. Claw does nice, but he needs more than that...

lol his recovery is really underrated, you can recover pretty well with Link and he lives really long.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You can not recover well with Link; I'm sorry.

 

[Ussi]

I dunno.. From my perspective, Link gets spiked by Ike :x I'm assuming others can run out can do a small knockback and gimp him or spike him as well.

EDIT: Dunno how much they can set it up but Ike has bthrow > dash attack which sets up gimps pretty nicely.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Basically the only way Link can recover is by DI'ing really well.

Getting hit by a semi spike near the ledge is pretty much fatal at mid percentages if your opponent follows it up, since Link's Up B doesn't have huge amounts of priority or anything.

Edit:

By bad priority I mean, Zelda's dair will either flat out beat it or trade.

 

[Hippieslayer]

It's such a shame because link really is an interesting character with a unique playstyle : /

 

[Fuujin]

He can actually live pretty long against characters use have kill moves that send the opponent high.
Like GnW, Zelda, Wario, Snake, etc.
He's just balls when he gets semi spiked or even hit with something that sends him at a remotly low angle.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Basically the only way Link can recover is by DI'ing really well.

Getting hit by a semi spike near the ledge is pretty much fatal at mid percentages if your opponent follows it up, since Link's Up B doesn't have huge amounts of priority or anything.

Just hold Up or Up/Toward anytime you think you may ever be hit. If you expect to get hit by something like Fox D-Smash, you could always tether the edge. Otherwise, don't hang out near the edge, hah.

Link has a rather good recovery. Fastfalling while getting hit upward is perfectly safe, though it often causes you to have to spend your double jump to cancel the fastfall once the momentum is over. Still, between an inevitable bomb pull, Up-B, and his tether, the only way he's not making it back is if the opponent makes a hard read, which could be said about even the best recoveries.

Also, Link's Up-B isn't incredibly easy to stop, and projectiles and his tether make it unreasonable to expect a trade to happen often, if at all.

 

[Fuujin]

Not sure if reflex is serious...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Link's recovery is *slightly* underrated. It's not quite Ganondorf bad, he can make it back a long distance provided he's high enough in the air, he can defend himself a little on the way back. But it still sucks unless it's Norfair. Then he's a pain to kill him.

He is however, thankfully somewhat good at preventing himself from ending up in those situations with DIing into the stage + Hookshot. Not that anyone can perfectly master it...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link's recovery is only ever bottom tier trash against a certain set of characters that are really good at launcing at sharply horizontal trajectories. Link is heavy and so good DI can help him survive for a pretty long time, to 180% or more. You can't even really say that about lighter characters with better recovery.

I still wouldn't say it is a "good" recovery, but I think it's better than characters like Ganondorf, Zelda, Olimar and a few others.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

zelda's recovery is under-rated. this zelda named mocha i was playing showed me how zelda gets a huge jump boost on b-reversal and wavebounced nayru's love. plus her teleporting was very spot on so that also plays a roll in me thinking her recovery is under-rated.

 

[OverLade]

That's a pretty extreme thing to say about IC.
Especially since you can force them to be in a position where they can't chain-grab you.
And while one guess in certain situations from them might lead to a grab, one guess in pretty much any situation from the other player leads to them getting hit, and often Nana being separated from Popo. And when Nana dies that might as well be a stock loss.

"Force them into a position where they can't chaingrab you"? Explain. The only way you can avoid getting grabbed is by camping platforms or having a character with enough horizontal air mobility that they can't get a guaranteed fix on your landings by pressuring you. This being said, no characters can camp platforms effectively against ICs without taking damage while actually attempting to damage ICs back (Snake can drop grenades which is the closet thing to this).

And one guess can mean hitting ICs but that doesn't usually lead to them being separated, and them being separated doesn't always lead to Nana getting gimped. Watch any vid of a good top ICs player vs a character that isn't MK, and compare the number of scenarios where a nana gimped could have occured/occured vs the ICs player dropping a grab.

ICs aren't easily separated by most characters, a lot of chars have decent ways to damage them but not specifically to separate them and kill/gimp nana. Basically, one hard read doesn't guarantee a gimp because you have to actually make the gimp happen while avoiding popo (or he has to be knocked far away enough to give you time to kill nana), while for ICs as long as they're together, one hard read is all it takes to take a stock.

And that aside, Nana dying doesn't guarantee a stock loss anyway, a good Popo can still tack on damage pretty well against most characters.

The reality is that most top ICs players barely camp. There's a reason ICs players dominate in japan aside from the stagelist, there's a level of technical perfection that isnt' seen much over here, as well as less MKs.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

zelda's recovery is under-rated. this zelda named mocha i was playing showed me how zelda gets a huge jump boost on b-reversal and wavebounced nayru's love. plus her teleporting was very spot on so that also plays a roll in me thinking her recovery is under-rated.

Her trouble isn't getting back to the stage, though; she just can't protect herself while she gets on the stage, so she often gets knocked right back out.

Dedede can recover from huge distances, too, but it's his ability to get on the stage safely via quick aerials and fastfall airdodge crap that makes it good. Zelda doesn't have any of that.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

touche salesman

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yer, Zelda's Up B is pretty good, range wise anyway (dat startup. Stop dancing ffs [Note: It's like 60 frames]), but she doesn't like having to be above people because she's only got dair and an airdodge to actually land back onto the stage.

Once she's on the stage, she's happy.

 

[Life]

I kinda wonder sometimes if Farore has onstage applications. Then I realize Zelda'd still be pretty poor even if she had something useful from it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

She's got ledgewarping, which gives her a surprising amount of options.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1hwdz7UkRU&NR=1

Edit: A personal favourite of mine is ledgewarp > double jump > up air. lol

 

[Tesh]

Are there any situations where you can repeatedly do that? Like on battlefield or delfino?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You should be able to do it...

Technically 9 different spaces on any stage.

So if I'm half way between the center of FD and the ledge, and I use Farore's aimed down and to the right, it would ledgewarp.

I said 9 because Farore's can be aimed in about 9 different directions on the ground (16 if you count the air), each giving slightly shorter amount of distance during the attack the closer it's aimed down. For example, south southwest teleports her shorter than south west.

It's hard to explain, but I'm pretty sure she can ledgewarp under those circumstances.

Edit: I think I missed the question.

If the question was: Can she do it on the platforms, then yeah she can. lol

 

[Fuujin]

I think the question was if she could do it more than once, as in double ledge canceling.
The answer is yes.
Only good for the occasional mind game though.
She can only cancel from downward or horizontal angles.