Official BBR Tier List v6

[Fuujin]

Marth is pretty bad though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is it?

/marthmain

That's pretty ambiguous... either way.
Snake, Marth and Dedede all have pretty big hitboxes on their uairs. Snake and Dedede definitely both have bigger vertical hitboxes on their uairs.
As does Ganon and Captain Falcon.

And actually, Game and Watch has the biggest uair 'hitbox' in the game Even if most of it is a windbox :O

In terms of horizontal and vertical coverage in their uair...
Marth, ZSS, Peach (IIRC), Bowser, Donkey Kong, Pit, Ike, Falcon and Ganon allhave pretty big uair hitboxes

Well it definitely has the biggest disjoint.

/thisiswhatthezss'saidtomeIdon'tthinkthey'relying

Edit: wait you knew? ror.

 

[Hippieslayer]

besides DDD can reverse buffered pivot grab infinite snake, with d-throw. 60:40 DDD.

 

[Hippieslayer]

DDD doesn't suffer landing lag? What fantasyworld are you living in, huh?
That is some amazing biased theorycraft right there pal. Dedede gets juggled pretty badly by many characters and can't really even recover without taking a lot of damage. And keep in mind Dedede is the one who has to approach. What is he gonna approach with, bair?

Sigh, it is a well known fact that DDD suffers only minor landing lag, thats why its possible to do gay things like FF>Utilt and actually get away with it.

All DDD has to do is walk/dash up to zero, she wants to keep him out so shes gonna throw some moves, trouble is all she does is blockade on reaction, and she has to space really good in order to not get her **** punished by f-tilt. Eventually she will reach the ledge as she has to retreat putting her at a disadvantage as she has to cross DDD.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

here is the real questions you guys need to answer:

for zss, how much do things like her DA lock and CGs affect the MU from DDDs point of view? would the MU be even without these things or would DDD now have the advantage?

how many ways can she stop DDD from just walking up to her and using his ftilt and dtilt and bair to space her?

How hard is it HONESTLY to **** DDD from below with her? a lot? a little? tell me the truth

Does zss have the ability to approach if she is down a stock?

who does better offstage?

answer questions like these and you'll come to the correct conclusion faster.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I'm assuming it's hard to do. o-o

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bowser, huh?

I miss Melee Bowser U-Air.

 

[-LzR-]

Sigh, it is a well known fact that DDD suffers only minor landing lag, thats why its possible to do gay things like FF>Utilt and actually get away with it.

All DDD has to do is walk/dash up to zero, she wants to keep him out so shes gonna throw some moves, trouble is all she does is blockade on reaction, and she has to space really good in order to not get her **** punished by f-tilt. Eventually she will reach the ledge as she has to retreat putting her at a disadvantage as she has to cross DDD.

Well duh, Jigglypuff doesn't suffer from landing lag. NOBODY DOES. What are you trying to prove here?

 

[Hippieslayer]

here is the real questions you guys need to answer:

for zss, how much do things like her DA lock and CGs affect the MU from DDDs point of view? would the MU be even without these things or would DDD now have the advantage?

how many ways can she stop DDD from just walking up to her and using his ftilt and dtilt and bair to space her?

How hard is it HONESTLY to **** DDD from below with her? a lot? a little? tell me the truth

Does zss have the ability to approach if she is down a stock?

who does better offstage?

answer questions like these and you'll come to the correct conclusion faster.

The chaingrab and dashlock allow her to rack up damage which is not actually not all that easy despite what people are saying. Sure for the first stock you'll have your suit pieces to help you break through DDD's defenses but after that actually getting that first hit in which will let you juggle and pressure him is not all to easy. I think that there would perhaps be a concencus about the matchup being even without the chaingrab and dashlock, instead of it being called as it is now: in Zero suits favor. Really the only reason it's in Zero Suits favour is faulty theorycrafting, actual matches tend to be evenish if the players know what they are doing and are on a similar level.

DDD is of course at a huge disadvantage when hes up in the air, but he's far from defenseless, unlike many other characters hes actually hard to frametrap with uair because he falls enough to reach the ground in pretty much one airdodge. He can also stall with his many jumps and flat out beat zero suits uair with his nair. That being said Zero can bait all this crap and she also has the option of using up-b which means she's dangerous even at a fairly large distance.

Approaching with Zero Suit is bad, the reward isn't worth the risk, if you get fancy jumping around DDD trying to hit him with autocancel uairs into tilts or whatever then you will eat an utilt. DDD's spotdodge is also good enough to allow him to use it a lot meaning youre not even likely to get those rare attempted grabs in. Oh and if he grabs you he can D-throw>ftilt or go for a buhman trap (D-throw>dsmash) so even without the chaingrab, getting grabbed hurts.

Zero is better offstage, but not by that much, DDD offstage isn't as bad as DDD in the air which isn't as bad as people think.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well there you go man. you just answered the whole problem. above you say that without the DA lock and the CG zss has, it would be even. thus if you use proper logic the fact that she has those make it slightly her favor because without them it would be even so thus the fact that she has more options than if it were just even logically says she has a +1

 

[-LzR-]

The chaingrab and dashlock allow her to rack up damage which is not actually not all that easy despite what people are saying. Sure for the first stock you'll have your suit pieces to help you break through DDD's defenses but after that actually getting that first hit in which will let you juggle and pressure him is not all to easy. I think that there would perhaps be a concencus about the matchup being even without the chaingrab and dashlock, instead of it being called as it is now: in Zero suits favor. Really the only reason it's in Zero Suits favour is faulty theorycrafting, actual matches tend to be evenish if the players know what they are doing and are on a similar level.

DDD is of course at a huge disadvantage when hes up in the air, but he's far from defenseless, unlike many other characters hes actually hard to frametrap with uair because he falls enough to reach the ground in pretty much one airdodge. He can also stall with his many jumps and flat out beat zero suits uair with his nair. That being said Zero can bait all this crap and she also has the option of using up-b which means she's dangerous even at a fairly large distance.

Approaching with Zero Suit is bad, the reward isn't worth the risk, if you get fancy jumping around DDD trying to hit him with autocancel uairs into tilts or whatever then you will eat an utilt. DDD's spotdodge is also good enough to allow him to use it a lot meaning youre not even likely to get those rare attempted grabs in. Oh and if he grabs you he can D-throw>ftilt or go for a buhman trap (D-throw>dsmash) so even without the chaingrab, getting grabbed hurts.

Zero is better offstage, but not by that much, DDD offstage isn't as bad as DDD in the air which isn't as bad as people think.

I can tell you don't have much experience or at least nowhere near as much as you claim to have. You said the MU currently is just pure theorycraft yet ironically that was exactly what your post was about.

 

[Hippieslayer]

well there you go man. you just answered the whole problem. above you say that without the DA lock and the CG zss has, it would be even. thus if you use proper logic the fact that she has those make it slightly her favor because without them it would be even so thus the fact that she has more options than if it were just even logically says she has a +1

I said that there would probably be a concensus about the matchup being even without those. The concensus doesn't reflect my personal belief however. I think it's even WITH them and it would definitely be in DDD's favour without them. Furthermore the chaingrab isn't even that useful since Zero Suits grab sucks and DDD's spotdodge owns and the chaingrab itself is rather difficult to perform and can be punished very hard if it fails.

Lzr: I've never claimed experience, I have played the matchup a lot, but I'm still just a swedish scrub smasher so it doesn't really matter. The thing is youre all about theorycrafting aswell. So I'd say were on equal grounds here.

But then again we have the fact that ACTUAL GAMES tend to be even.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I think this could have effect on the DDD vs Snake matchup aswell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cseHesGaSWQ Although its pretty damn tight.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The dash attack lock is easy. It's just buffering a dash attack into another. lul

 

[infiniteV115]

"DDD is of course at a huge disadvantage when hes up in the air"
"He can also stall with his many jumps"

Lmao wtf

"He can also...flat out beat zero suits uair with his nair"
...What?
Ignore list ftw.
ZSS beats Dedede easily.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't see why people are so confident in ZSS beating DDD "easily". ZSS seems kinda gimmicky and DDDs fundamentals are still powerful and reliable - just not very numerous. Still, I think in order to beat DDD your character needs to have better abilities to cover options and keep your own defensive options available as well than ZSS is able to - MK, Diddy, Snake, Falco, Fox, ICs and Olimar are characters that naturally have these powerful traits. ZSS surely isn't on that level and claiming anything higher than +1 needs more than just theorycrafting as backup, although 0 seems to be way more realistic.

 

[Doc King]

I love how no one mentioned King Dedede's decent edge guarding game on Zero suit and when Zss is off stage, she can get pressured by D3 to a decent level.

I don't know if this is me, but I think that some of you guys are so desperate on destroying King Dedede and making him a piece of crap character. It seems like you guys will find any excuse to claim your matchup opinions a certain number against Dedede. While you do so, you completely ignore what King Dedede can do in certain matchups.

 

[NickRiddle]

I love how no one mentioned King Dedede's decent edge guarding game on Zero suit and when Zss is off stage, she can get pressured by D3 to a decent level.

I don't know if this is me, but I think that some of you guys are so desperate on destroying King Dedede and making him a piece of crap character. It seems like you guys will find any excuse to claim your matchup opinions a certain number against Dedede. While you do so, you completely ignore what King Dedede can do in certain matchups.

Pray tell, what does DDD do against ZSS while she is off-stage?
Bair? Cool story bro, invulnerable down-b > footstool off your head > make it on stage. Oh look, DDD is off-stage.
Anything other than bair? Turns out all of our reaction times are terrible.
Oh, you're on-stage? Okay... what exactly are you going to do? Space f-tilt for your tiny poke? If you're much closer we're just going to rising uair you, or down-b footstool off your head.

Please,expand on this... for I have never played this MU before.

Also, for Hippie who cites me vs. coney...
Damn bro. One set vs. the best DDD ever, whom I'd never played before, and it's close. Turns out, the first time you play somebody is 100% the most accurate representation of a MU.




Guys, I got ***** by M2K. MK is +3 with ZSS!

 

[infiniteV115]

Let me ask a question.
Where do you guys think Dedede would be on the tier list if his dthrow couldn't CG?

 

[Ussi]

depends what his dthrow does now?

What if it sets up for utilt giving DDD a kill set up?

 

[Linkshot]

Let me ask a question.
Where do you guys think Dedede would be on the tier list if his dthrow couldn't CG?

Mid

And 10+ more stages would be viable

 

[Kantrip]

Except bananas.

Dedede doesn't break any stages all by himself.

 

[Ussi]

walk offs are still banned cause walk off camping is dumb risk/reward ratio

 

[Ralph Cecil]

depends what his dthrow does now?

What if it sets up for utilt giving DDD a kill set up?

I think he meant what if it was like how his d-throw was with characters like Falco, & what not.

 

[Ussi]

yea i realized i was a bit silly with that statement

tech chasing is still a powerful tool.. except on characters whose tech roll is impossible/hard to punish (Zelda, Ike, other long fast tech rollers)

still bthrow does 16% so he basically gets less reward from the grab.. and loses easy edgeguard set ups

 

[-LzR-]

I love how no one mentioned King Dedede's decent edge guarding game on Zero suit and when Zss is off stage, she can get pressured by D3 to a decent level.

I don't know if this is me, but I think that some of you guys are so desperate on destroying King Dedede and making him a piece of crap character. It seems like you guys will find any excuse to claim your matchup opinions a certain number against Dedede. While you do so, you completely ignore what King Dedede can do in certain matchups.

King Dededes edgeguarding isn't anything to be afraid of. Zss has a great recovery.

We are not trying to make Dedede crap, we just know he is because we have over 3 years of experience and he was the 3rd in the beginning. Then we realized he isn't that good.
We don't ignore ****, except soon I may think it might be you.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't see why people are so confident in ZSS beating DDD "easily". ZSS seems kinda gimmicky and DDDs fundamentals are still powerful and reliable - just not very numerous. Still, I think in order to beat DDD your character needs to have better abilities to cover options and keep your own defensive options available as well than ZSS is able to - MK, Diddy, Snake, Falco, Fox, ICs and Olimar are characters that naturally have these powerful traits. ZSS surely isn't on that level and claiming anything higher than +1 needs more than just theorycrafting as backup, although 0 seems to be way more realistic.

ZSS is not "gimmicky". If you think that she's gimmicky because d-smash, well that's silly considering it's a really good move and mostly safe on shield (0 frame advantage when charged).

ZSS' fundamentals are very good and damaging attack strings, which happen to work very well against heavy, big, fast falling characters.

Something that Dedede is.

I love how no one mentioned King Dedede's decent edge guarding game on Zero suit and when Zss is off stage, she can get pressured by D3 to a decent level.

I don't know if this is me, but I think that some of you guys are so desperate on destroying King Dedede and making him a piece of crap character. It seems like you guys will find any excuse to claim your matchup opinions a certain number against Dedede. While you do so, you completely ignore what King Dedede can do in certain matchups.

ZSS has an above average recovery. HUGE second jump without being boosted by up b, down b which has intangibility on it, it's fast and it stops momentum.

Not every tether is bad you know. lol

The only thing Dedede can do is try to space perfectly with ftilt or bair and hope ZSS doesn't get in and **** his shield, then poke it, then up air him for massive damage.

 

[Hippieslayer]

ZSS is not "gimmicky". If you think that she's gimmicky because d-smash, well that's silly considering it's a really good move and mostly safe on shield (0 frame advantage when charged).

ZSS' fundamentals are very good and damaging attack strings, which happen to work very well against heavy, big, fast falling characters.

Something that Dedede is.


ZSS has an above average recovery. HUGE second jump without being boosted by up b, down b which has intangibility on it, it's fast and it stops momentum.

Not every tether is bad you know. lol

The only thing Dedede can do is try to space perfectly with ftilt or bair and hope ZSS doesn't get in and **** his shield, then poke it, then up air him for massive damage.

Zss is gimmicky, sure the strings are good, but they are somewhat overrated here as few of them are truly inescapable. But more than that the attacks which starts the string are not all that hot or easy to hit with. Once your opponent has a certain amount of matchup experience you will find as a Zss that a large amount of what used to do get your opponent to let one of your attacks hit him simply stops working as they understand the fundamental weaknesses associated with the attacks (ie they are all blockable and easily punished if her spacing is a little off, bar d-tilt which you need to be fast to punish but even D-tilt can be consequently punished with enough experience).

Youre right about the recovery though, but still, it means that going for offstage gimps is rather risky due to the tether.

The last part of your post kinda reflects how I feel about Zss; space perfectly hope that DDD doesn't get in and **** you and pray to god that you actually manage to initiate one of those nice little strings which can hopefully compensate for the fact that actually landing your attacks is not easy. Also you don't **** DDD's shield. He can use his spotdodge instead, it's good enough not to get punished by Dsmash in most cases.

Edit: Oh yeah and to Nick Riddle, you don't need to actively edgeguard, just try to grab or tilt when she lands. The thing about the down B is that its basically the worst thing that can happen and its rather predictable and can be punished heavily if it fails. The invurnerability is also just for a few frames and bair can clash with with the kick.

Furthermore It's not like youre not the best Zss ever anyway so It's not like Coney was having a breeze either. But the thing is Zero Suit is known to be a character which can capitalize heavily on lack of matchup experience from their opponents side. Chances are if you guys actually played each other a lot then there would be more room for improvement from Coneys side than yours.

 

[Orion*]

^ i like you

no homo

 

[Linkshot]

The invurnerability is also just for a few frames and bair can clash with with the kick.

You're not supposed to kick.
You do the Flip, intang ignores D3's fTilt.
During the Flip, you use that massive horizontal footstool and positions are now reset with both onstage.
ZSS starts pressuring D3 with massive-range-SideB to get shieldpushed offstage due to being too close when "edgeguarding"
What now?

 

[Shaya]

I duck into an utilt.
I don't think a ZSS should be using down b to get back on stage from the ledge, that's quite dangerous with one back air = death type of thing. So you're saying while he's trying to edge guard you jump over him? You realise Dedede has like... the best fast fall... and getting up 'high' enough to not be in range of your footstool isn't too complicated and at the same time ZSS has a terrible fast fall speed (in comparison) to try and avoid that, but after the use of down b a mistake in either the use of side b or up b to tether could be your stock.

Edge guarding with Marth and Dedede follow similar tendencies (there are a lot of marth players who also/have play[ed] dedede a fair bit), and that same pattern while being laggier start up for Dedede compared to Marth is arguably more deadly due to the steeper fast fall speed.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ok, let's say his dthrow sent them at the same trajectory as MK's dthrow, but other than trajectory it's the exact same as his current dthrow: Where would DDD be with this new dthrow?
@Linkshot, where in mid? Mid right now goes from 15th to 28th. You'll need to be more specific XD

The invurnerability is also just for a few frames and bair can clash with with the kick.

Now we should all be sure that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. ZSS's flip jump kick has transcendent priority, meaning it DOES NOT CLASH WITH ANYTHING. It will go right through bair. It goes right through MK's nado.

Also, DDD being such a big target, it's going to be easy to land the footstool on him if he's trying to bair us. "The invurnerability is also just for a few frames" Well yeah, but that doesn't really matter. It's for the first 12 frames of the move, all we have to do is use it just before an attack hits us (not very hard). And the flipstool comes out on frame 19. Meaning you have 6 frames (13-18) to hit us with SOMETHING, and uair being your best option now that we're above you(good range, multi-hit move to make it more likely that you'll hit in that 6-frame window) can be SDI'd (I think). If not, it's not even a great edge-guarding move, cause it doesn't send us that far, OR to the side.


Edit: @ Shaya
The flipstool box is quite large. And when we were talking about down-b-ing back to the stage, it was assumed that Dedede was trying to edgeguard us with bair (ie he is offstage). If he's onstage, we just tether. Hell, some of the time that he's offstage, we can tether. If he's close enough to prevent us from tethering, we can probably just down-b over him.

Edge guarding with Marth is different because ALL of his hitboxes are huge and come out quite fast, and send the opponent at enough of a distance to allow Marth to follow up/grab the edge possibly. Dedede's everything but nair is huge, and fair is quite slow. Bair is good cause it has good knockback and is fast, but again we have the great option of down b. Not saying bair is useless, it can edge-guard us if we don't react quickly enough. But it's easy to react quickly enough.
uair and dair should be bad for obvious reasons.

 

[Shaya]

I'd have to be proven wrong, but I -thought- this was the case in the past:
I've thrown out a tippered bair at a zss doing down b and your move has a longish duration of the hitbox out, if zss doesn't get out of the hitbox by the time her invincibility ends, she still gets hit.

So in other words I think it is possible (if I'm correct) that a back air can hit you afterwards. through your invincibility, unless you flip kick them or get out of the hitbox naturally.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

zss's recovery is nothing special lmao. definately just average. on the higher end of average, sure ill go for that, but above average recoveries are like ROB, Wario, Pikachu, Pit, MK. every tether is pretty easy to beat because all it takes is some1 either holding the ledge or just throwing out without anycare on this planet an aerial just under the ledgeif they happen to have their tether connect and boom zss is screwed. hell her tether can't even hurt you if it is ledge snapping so if anything her's tether is easier to deal with than olimar's (just the tether though, her overall recovery is definately better than olimar's. but that's also not saying much)

 

[infiniteV115]

Uh, Maharba, those 5 pretty much have the best recoveries in the game. If those are the only recoveries that are "above average", and ZSS's recovery is "on the higher end of average", logically speaking, ZSS has one of the best recoveries in the game, correct? (Probably around top 10).

Her recovery is quite good, but this is mainly due to the fact that her tether range is huge. Assuming that we DI and momentum cancel properly (and we still have our down b), the only people who have a good chance of edgeguarding us are like MK, Pikachu, Wario, Marth. And even with these people we don't get ***** offstage.

@Shaya
I don't know what you mean by

and your move has a longish duration of the hitbox out, if zss doesn't get out of the hitbox by the time her invincibility ends, she still gets hit

Are you talking about her kick, or the hitbox of the move with which ZSS' opponent is edgeguarding?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

after i posted that i saw the flawed logic in my head because because i have always mained characters with exceptional recoveries so my average recovery standard is way higher than anyone else's and thus i actually have no clue what it's like full blown maining someone with a terrible recovery anymore (when i started i used wolf, and after dealing with that crap i vowed to use someone who can damn well always recover).

my bad, i guess her's is above average. don't worry im smh-ing pretty hard right now

 

[Hippieslayer]

Now we should all be sure that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. ZSS's flip jump kick has transcendent priority, meaning it DOES NOT CLASH WITH ANYTHING. It will go right through bair. It goes right through MK's nado.

Also, DDD being such a big target, it's going to be easy to land the footstool on him if he's trying to bair us. "The invurnerability is also just for a few frames" Well yeah, but that doesn't really matter. It's for the first 12 frames of the move, all we have to do is use it just before an attack hits us (not very hard). And the flipstool comes out on frame 19. Meaning you have 6 frames (13-18) to hit us with SOMETHING, and uair being your best option now that we're above you(good range, multi-hit move to make it more likely that you'll hit in that 6-frame window) can be SDI'd (I think). If not, it's not even a great edge-guarding move, cause it doesn't send us that far, OR to the side.

What? Ok my bad in that case, I was pretty sure i recently had it clash, I remember because it pissed me off, but I guess I was in the wrong here. I any case youre not really making sense either saying DDD's best option is uair lol. I didn't consider people meant actually using the footstool since thats just begging to get hit by an utilt or bair from his side. It may be a six frame window but it's not like you can't react to it since you'll see the whole kick flip prior to it happening. In fact from my experience you tend to time it right pretty much naturally by reaction.

If it's true then that Zss kick has transcendent priority then this is basically a matter of mindgames where the odds are equal. If DDD shields he's completely safe but Zero gets back on stage with the footstool, if DDD tilts/bairs and Zero goes for a footstool she takes some dmg (in the case of utilt, which imo is the best option, quite a lot of dmg), If DDD tilts/bairs and Zero kicks then DDD takes dmg and is either spiked to the ground (which allows for chases, dsmash comes to mind or offstage himself), although the kick comes out on frame 27 so if she does go for it she's running the risk of getting hit prior to performing the attack, despite its priority. At least if she intends to use it from the ledge where's there no way to space it properly because doing so would take additional time and make the whole manouver obvious as hell.

This being said what if DDD stands with his back to the ledge and stalls with his jumps? He can then stay out of the way while still being able to respond to whatever zero does because a fastfalled bair is very fast. Sure you can wait til he's used his jumps and try to get up just then, but that means you lose any element of surprise.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I'd have to be proven wrong, but I -thought- this was the case in the past:
I've thrown out a tippered bair at a zss doing down b and your move has a longish duration of the hitbox out, if zss doesn't get out of the hitbox by the time her invincibility ends, she still gets hit.

So in other words I think it is possible (if I'm correct) that a back air can hit you afterwards. through your invincibility, unless you flip kick them or get out of the hitbox naturally.

Would like to know aswell :O

 

[Coney]

zero suit wins, i'm not sure if it's actually a +2 or just a +1 but i'm sure she wins

about me playing nickriddle, we both have extensive experience with each other's characters. my experience was plentiful but with less spectacular of a player, and he played a comparable ddd but with a completely different playstyle. it would take many, many more sets for us to be able to "figure each other out" and have a consensus on a ratio

i don't think zss is gimmicky, at least not against ddd. she's just really safe, has fantastic punishes, and completely destroy's ddd's terrible air mobility.

again i'm not entirely sure if it's a counter or anything, but it's probably not even. she's too safe and exploits ddd's biggest weaknesses, his air speed and approach game.

also zss down b is weird and i don't fully understand it (like many other things in this game), all i know is that i profit if i hit the second half of it, kinda like phantasm

 

[Steam]

Let me ask a question.
Where do you guys think Dedede would be on the tier list if his dthrow couldn't CG?

bottom of mid tier at best.