Official BBR Tier List v6

[Conviction]

TL mains be mad.

 

[Thebest1pj]

 

[Tesh]

Yo, Peach mains, I dare you to start devising some way and practicing hard to 2-3 stock Wolves. Make sure you guys record your MMs and tourney matches. That will speak leagues more than a few forum posts. Although it isn't a tier list thread without some heated debate...

As a Lucario main I am quite thrilled and surprised that we outrank Dedede now. We're right back where we started. Step it up, Dedede mains, I know you guys are better than you've shown the past 9 months.

Doesn't matter if Peach beats Wolf. Yoshi beats Sonic and everyone above low tier beats Marth (cept ness).

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Also, I wanna see san rep Jiggs in tourney after watching some of his vids. Holy **** he beat Berserker Swordsman's Ike with Jiggs... Woooowwwwwwww.

 

[LordAizen]

Doesn't matter if Peach beats Wolf. Yoshi beats Sonic and everyone above low tier beats Marth (cept ness).

Doesn't matter if Peach beats wolf or if Yoshi beats sonic, MK beats everyone below him.

 

[smashless gama]

poor Luigi (
oh well, I love this new list anyway. love seeing Wolf jumpin up. that and Wario slowly falling, Ike still rising, Pit still falling, and Rosalina rising, and--
....wait wtf?

 

[tekkie]

wolf above peach, kirby, rob, dk, and sonic not going up more?

wolfs are doing good but all of the above are doing better

 

[Deleted member]

Tekkie da troll wolf.

 

[Ray Robo]

Dark Peach ****ing sucks.

 

[tekkie]

Tekkie da troll wolf.

Spoiler

dont tell people my secret

Spoiler

seriously though, will, illmatic, chudat, chibosempai, holynightmare, x, espy, cable, and boss have had better success against better players and done better in tournaments than any wolf mains ever

 

[Matt07]

Congrats to all Yoshi's who helped him move to Middle Tier .

 

[Juushichi]

Krys, you and even Kewkky forgot the person who is easily the second best Kirby (or best, now that Chu doesn't play anymore) in Y.b.M. What the hell guys?

 

[Brisinger581]

What did the Pit users do!?!?!?!

 

[RoanYagyu]

What did the Pit users do!?!?!?!

Nothing, and there lies the problem

 

[Krystedez]

Krys, you and even Kewkky forgot the person who is easily the second best Kirby (or best, now that Chu doesn't play anymore) in Y.b.M. What the hell guys?

That's true, Juu, I forgot. But yeah, really, Y.b.M. is about it, and it's not like he takes anything but our MW tourneys (when I or Count aren't there )... That will change though if we get more Kirby's like Y.b.M.

All I'm saying is that Pit has more relevant results and matchup data/analysis than Kirby can ever bring to the table in the foreseeable future. Unless we get more Y.b.M.'s, and Kewwky ends up being legit as !@#$.

 

[Aposl]

idc about PT going down, but random being higher on the tier list was just unnecessary and hurtful....

 

[tibs7]

diddy 2nd?
i really dont think so :S

 

[*JuriHan*]

I can't believe so many people just shove off Kirby so fast.
Chudat had amazing (for that character) results/wins with Kirby.
Like at every big tourney Chudat was at he was getting like 13th most of the time which is actually pretty good. Sometimes he did even better.
Really sad he quit Brawl, now everyone's forgetting about that pink blob so quickly...

Chudat is great no doubt, but when he was smashing people with Kirby, this was before the metagame really took off and people really didn't know how to handle/deal with some of Kirby's gimmicks like his grab stuff.

Kirby's MUs... got much worse over time. An example is there was a time when they listed Kirby:MK as 45:55 in MK's favor. You really think it's that even now?
Nope. Same with DD, hell I think people use to say it was in his advantage even. Lucario and ZSS MU also got worse for him. Kirby went from A to C and now he's at E. Makes perfect sense and in time he's going to drop more, Sonic should pass him up definitely.

Kirby's game never went anywhere. He started off good and very solid, but many other characters developed and became a threat to him... and well. Surpassed him.

Play Kirby against a good player who uses a tourny viable character in today's metagame. You'll understand why he's so low. Bad air speed, bad approaches, bad at killing, gets camped, gets shield grabbed if not spaced perfectly- that combined with his bad air speed hurts. Very predictable character. He's on the ground. What is going to do? Grab. In the air? B-air. F-smash is telegraphed and avoided at high levels unless used as a punish or you d-air'd into it unless it was sdi'd sp he can't kill as well as you would imagine. Brings me to this: SDI ****s Kirby over too. If your u-tilt and grab combos work- the player you are fighting is free and doesn't know SDI 101. Also did I mention MK and Wario pretty much outclass him?

Yeah. Why do you think people don't use him anymore?

 

[Life]

Am I right in saying Random is not an actual tier list placing but simply a marker to show where the middle of the list is?

Also, MIRACLE AT MLG

 

[Seagull Joe]

o word i heard dabuz did indeed PUT IN WORK at vinnies

!!!!!!!!

who was he putting his work into again?

!!!!!!!!!!!

This is true. Olimar should be top tier after that BBQ accomplishment.

Reason to put Olimar above Mk in my opinion.

 

[Randum]

Awesome, Lucas didn't move up. Still a low tier! Barely hanging onto those low tier events.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Tier list got me pump for this game and actually makes wanna focus to win. Feel like money matching seagull and tand taking his money.

 

[OverLade]

I think ICs being better than Wario is a given.

DK he *****, Ganon and Bowser as well. The others yes.

His MU spread is too evenish lol. He doesn't lose to most of top tier, but he's not pulling any real advantages on them either. Most of his MU's are 55:45 either character's favor up there, Snake being debatable but probably just 55:45.

MK Marth are obvious. Snake is fairly even, same with Pika Olimar. IC... god knows what that MU is. Ideally probably slight IC favor, on a more realistic note where Nana gets *****, 55:45 Wario. Falco could win that, don't see that being past 6:4 ever though.

I think we probably disagree on Warios matchup ratios. I think MK, Snake, Peach, Sheik, Falco, and Dedede all beat Wario 6/4ish. Then like 20 or so characters have matchups between 55-45 and 45-55 matchups. Personally I think Olimar and Pikachu have slightly better matchup spreads. Imo

I think Wario is in the general right place so far. The 3 characters under him all certainly have the potential to be better (IC's for sure), Some of their MU's seem really undecided though. Pika for example, what IS the Pika vs MK MU? Does he beat Snake? How hard is his MU with IC's? Does he go evenish with Diddy or does Diddy win? What about Marth? Or Oli, how does he really do vs MK or Diddy or Falco or etc? Those seem much harder to "pin down" than general **** like Wario vs Diddy is 55:45 or yeah Wario sucks vs Marth.

Personally I think Pikachu has similar matchups to wario in top tier buch much better matchups in mid and low tier, with a few characters like ROB and Peach giving him trouble. Same goes for Olimar, with a few mid tiers giving him difficult/even matchups. This makes them more "viable" than Wario imo. The characters that have better matchups against Wario are more common, while the characters that counter pikachu either barely do so or arent that common.

I could see Olimar above Wario. I think Pika is the short end of the top tier stick. His range being comparable to Wario's does not fare him well when it comes to gay spacing ****, and I think that will tend to keep him from dominating.

Imo Pikachu isn't THAT underrated. But his chaingrabs and runnaway game is comparable to Falco. He's also almost unpressurable and ungimpable.

A handful of smart MK players... but the few stupid ones that think characters like Yoshi is 55:45/-1?

I see what you did there

 

[stingers]

i feel like MMing seagull too but i wont
u coming to NC for next weekends tourney seagull?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't think Snake, Sheik, or Falco have a 6-4 matchup against Wario.

 

[Seagull Joe]

i feel like MMing seagull too but i wont
u coming to NC for next weekends tourney seagull?

Can't Stingers. But we shall see each other in the fall for sure buddy .

Tier list got me pump for this game and actually makes wanna focus to win. Feel like money matching seagull and tand taking his money.

Anytime kind sir. I'll see you at Ktar 6!

This pretty much. Sonic's been doing plenty of work as well, but it's been overshadowed by Wolf and Fox stuffs, along with mid/high tier cutoffs.

Sonic should be right below the spacies in mid tier, in my opinion. He's shown plenty of potential, and has some beefy results to back it up.

Pretty much. Sonic is better than Peach.

If this was aimed at the Sonic statements, I'd argue that the MU Ratios for him are incorrect to a degree that could potentially shift in Sonic's favor.

He should've been on this list.

I need more Sonic support in the Backroom. Seagull was my only ally.
There's still a pretty hefty anti-Sonic bias back there.
I mean, just look at the match up chart.

Wrong, Zigsta. Look at Sonic's tournament results thread. He's done just as well as Peach has been doing all season. The MLG Dallas event is like the first scoop in a bowl of ice cream. It's a foundation that I feel gives Sonic an edge to...what, Peach's WHOBO performance?

Hell, aside from Illmatic placing a single placing above the highest placing Sonic at WHOBO3, the two characters placed in generally the same areas. Not to mention if you take a gander at both character's results since January, they've essentially placed in the same areas. Constantly.

You can't say that Sonic hasn't done much, because you'd be completely wrong.

And yes, PLENTY of players still think "lolSonic". The fact that MLG Dallas was such a big deal is a testament to that bias. That isn't to say that what happened should've been expected, but it also shouldn't have been such a huge surprise either. Sonic is reasonably viable outside of a single character match up or two.

Story. Of. Sonic's. Entire. Metagame.

I'm pretty confident that I can take you down to one stock.
Come to Texas!! <3

...what?
Some of the best minds and some of the highest leveled players in the American Brawl meta game discussed this list.

Just the idea of a "random" being in the backroom just sounds silly.

See my post for Zigsta.
If Sonic's results have been nonexistent, then so have Peach's.

This legitimately made me laugh.

And it's not over. He needs to be where he belongs.

Again, it was definitely a huge contribution, but it's also his consistently decent results (at least in comparison to his other mid tier brethren, especially Peach) that support a rise for the character.

I think the only two characters in mid tier who unarguably outdo him results-wise are Fox and Wolf, actually.

I love using Sonic. I think he is still underrated at this point. He may lose to my character, but I still view Sonic as the best worst character. I see Wolf as the worst best character. If that makes any sort of sense.

Sonic has a very good punish game compared to most characters. Who else can DA across a stage to always punish nado?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I need more Sonic support in the Backroom. Seagull was my only ally.
There's still a pretty hefty anti-Sonic bias back there.
I mean, just look at the match up chart.

._.
Though admittedly I am a bit more...negative in terms of how I view Sonic's capabilities, despite how much I argued for them in the past.
It's probably because when I was active in tournament I cou;ldn't get past ANTI's friggin MK -.-

 

[M@v]

-Oh hai there wolf. Nice to see you up here.

-Poor weegii

-Marth haters: Stop hating marth is gross in this game.

-Link moving onnnn up.

-Snake gets de-throned. Must of tripped on a nanner.


Good list.

Shoutout to lucario too.


PS just realized Yoshi's mid tier now.
ELEVATOR BOOOOOOOOTS

 

[archer.]

WTFFFFFF Joe you said you were coming. =[

And Link is better than Falcon.

 

[DMG]

I think ICs being better than Wario is a given.

I think we probably disagree on Warios matchup ratios. I think MK, Snake, Peach, Sheik, Falco, and Dedede all beat Wario 6/4ish. Then like 20 or so characters have matchups between 55-45 and 45-55 matchups. Personally I think Olimar and Pikachu have slightly better matchup spreads. Imo
Personally I think Pikachu has similar matchups to wario in top tier buch much better matchups in mid and low tier, with a few characters like ROB and Peach giving him trouble. Same goes for Olimar, with a few mid tiers giving him difficult/even matchups. This makes them more "viable" than Wario imo. The characters that have better matchups against Wario are more common, while the characters that counter pikachu either barely do so or arent that common.
Imo Pikachu isn't THAT underrated. But his chaingrabs and runnaway game is comparable to Falco. He's also almost unpressurable and ungimpable.

I see what you did there

Eh, disagree a bit. I think Snake is more evenish, maybe 5 points Wario's favor. MK Peach definitly have the 6:4, MK's probably worse but god knows no one is actually gonna label it as anything harder. Shiek... idk. Light doesn't like that MU. I think it's 5:5. Falco is interesting. I think that's 5:5 as well. It's hard to tell because no body really plays the Wario vs Falco MU in tournament anymore. I think the CG on Falco stops him from having a soft counter, cause that MU would definitely suck if Wario could not guarantee damage like that on him. I could see Falco having a small edge regardless.

For the time being, Wario will be over IC's until next list. The more people like Ally Vinnie Atomsk etc use IC's, the more obvious their strength is. Even if it's mostly for CP's or absurd MU's like Ally going IC's vs Olimar and Pika players.

 

[Judo777]

...His attacks are pretty fast. Heck fastest Fsmash in the game of some nonsense *shrugs*



Also...yoshi's too high

His fsmash is one of his few quick moves compared to most other chars frame data. It just so happens that his fsmash gets clanked by almost every jab in the game. First hit utilt is also surprisingly fast but the hitbox is too small to matter.

Frame 5 jab, Frame 14 ftilt, Frame 12 fair, Frame 9 bair and uair, Frame 10 dair.

His only move that is reasonably fast that doesn't have some obscure or small hitbox his nair at frame 4 which isn't half bad. But it has little knockback and is multihit which allows for escape not to mention its not applicable for alot of situations.

Pit really lacks a fast reliable move and it hurts him. Even Ike has one fast reliable move in jab. Ike does however lack alot of things pit doesn't.

@ Krystedez sheik is a very very low prioity character having almost no good disjoints. She is however quite fast. And pit as I stated above Pit have very slow options compared to most of the high tiers.

 

[Seagull Joe]

WTFFFFFF Joe you said you were coming. =[

And Link is better than Falcon.

I can't now. Took off too many Saturdays (CoT5 and the local before CoT5 and last weekend).

Sorry ^^'. Logic, Lie, Gimr, and Aposl are trying to go, but I think they'll probably end up going to the NJ tourney cause it's closer.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I can't now. Took off too many Saturdays (CoT5 and the local before CoT5 and last weekend).

A cursed shame. I wanted to show you the power of Pokémon Trainer.

 

[archer.]

Should I assume that Pink and Caitie won't be there either?

 

[Rizk18]

I don't agree with Kirby,ROB,Pit and Luigi moving down as much as they did, especially Kirby. O well.

 

[Shaya]

Morning guys.

1. Pika/Oli didn't move up in placements but JOINED top tier, both were relatively close to Ice Climbers (who got 7th) as well. It's a really tough area to break through, I don't think Olimar enthusiasts should think he didn't rise.

2. Sonic was well above Ike in averages. He's still rising over time.

3. I forget.

Oh yeah. BBR does not endorse using random in middle tier tournaments.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sorry, SL.
I know there's probably another person here or there.

But Seagull WAS the second most verbal about it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pikachu still 3rd best in the game. Fact.

/saltyas****pikachudidn'tmoveatall

 

[CHOMPY]

The amount of potential these characters have if MK wasn't in the metagame and how different things could be.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Just to be sure I got understand this correctly (it may be staring me at the face, but I'm tired, lol):

Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Meta Knight	1	1	1	0	1	1
Diddy Kong	2.25	2	2	0.433	2	3
Snake		3.19	3	3	1.025	2	6
Falco		4.07	4	4	0.752	2	7
Marth		5.80	5	6	1.736	3	10
Wario		6.55	6	6	1.425	3	10
Ice Climbers	7.08	7	7	1.526	5	10
Captain Olimar	7.48	8	8	1.017	5	9
Pikachu		7.66	9	8	1.538	3	10
King Dedede	10.78	10	10.5	1.097	8	13
Lucario		10.94	10,11	11	0.914	9	13
Zero Suit Samus	11.92	12,13	12	0.979	9	13
Mr.Game & Watch	12.23	13	13	0.963	10	13
						
						
Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Toon Link	14.78	14	14	1.410	14	21
Fox		15.64	15	15	1.528	14	20
Wolf		17.60	16	17	2.820	14	25
Peach		17.73	16	17	1.875	15	23
Donkey Kong	18.94	18	19	2.090	15	26
Kirby		19.26	21	19	2.279	15	23
R.O.B.		19.32	20	19	3.145	15	28
Pit		19.91	20	20	2.316	15	25
Sonic		20.75	18,22	21	2.301	17	24
Ike		23.05	23	23	1.597	18	27
Luigi		24.07	24	23	1.781	20	28
Sheik / Zelda	24.37	25	25	2.100	18	27
Sheik		26.00	26	26	1.658	19	28
Ness		26.10	27	26	1.175	23	28
Pokémon Trainer	27.42	28	28	1.251	22	28
						
						
Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Yoshi		29.05	29	29	0.293	29	31
Lucas		30.41	30	30	0.921	29	35
Mario		31.19	31	31	1.108	30	36
Bowser		32.69	32	32	1.602	30	37
Samus		33.37	33	33	1.494	31	38
Captain Falcon	33.92	34	34	1.207	32	37
Link		35.30	35	35	1.534	31	38
Jigglypuff	35.66	36	36	1.479	32	38
Zelda		35.73	37	36	1.797	30	38
Ganondorf	37.64	38	38	0.874	34	38

The "Min" value represents the "best" placing that character was voted for, and the "Max" value indicates the "worst?"

If that's the case, then ROB being voted as low as 28th is incredible to see.