Conviction
Human Nature
TL mains be mad.
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Doesn't matter if Peach beats Wolf. Yoshi beats Sonic and everyone above low tier beats Marth (cept ness).Yo, Peach mains, I dare you to start devising some way and practicing hard to 2-3 stock Wolves. Make sure you guys record your MMs and tourney matches. That will speak leagues more than a few forum posts. Although it isn't a tier list thread without some heated debate...
As a Lucario main I am quite thrilled and surprised that we outrank Dedede now. We're right back where we started. Step it up, Dedede mains, I know you guys are better than you've shown the past 9 months.
Doesn't matter if Peach beats wolf or if Yoshi beats sonic, MK beats everyone below him.Doesn't matter if Peach beats Wolf. Yoshi beats Sonic and everyone above low tier beats Marth (cept ness).
Tekkie da troll wolf.
Nothing, and there lies the problemWhat did the Pit users do!?!?!?!
That's true, Juu, I forgot. But yeah, really, Y.b.M. is about it, and it's not like he takes anything but our MW tourneys (when I or Count aren't there )... That will change though if we get more Kirby's like Y.b.M.Krys, you and even Kewkky forgot the person who is easily the second best Kirby (or best, now that Chu doesn't play anymore) in Y.b.M. What the hell guys?
Chudat is great no doubt, but when he was smashing people with Kirby, this was before the metagame really took off and people really didn't know how to handle/deal with some of Kirby's gimmicks like his grab stuff.I can't believe so many people just shove off Kirby so fast.
Chudat had amazing (for that character) results/wins with Kirby.
Like at every big tourney Chudat was at he was getting like 13th most of the time which is actually pretty good. Sometimes he did even better.
Really sad he quit Brawl, now everyone's forgetting about that pink blob so quickly...
!!!!!!!!o word i heard dabuz did indeed PUT IN WORK at vinnies
!!!!!!!!!!!who was he putting his work into again?
Reason to put Olimar above Mk in my opinion.This is true. Olimar should be top tier after that BBQ accomplishment.
I think we probably disagree on Warios matchup ratios. I think MK, Snake, Peach, Sheik, Falco, and Dedede all beat Wario 6/4ish. Then like 20 or so characters have matchups between 55-45 and 45-55 matchups. Personally I think Olimar and Pikachu have slightly better matchup spreads. ImoDK he *****, Ganon and Bowser as well. The others yes.
His MU spread is too evenish lol. He doesn't lose to most of top tier, but he's not pulling any real advantages on them either. Most of his MU's are 55:45 either character's favor up there, Snake being debatable but probably just 55:45.
MK Marth are obvious. Snake is fairly even, same with Pika Olimar. IC... god knows what that MU is. Ideally probably slight IC favor, on a more realistic note where Nana gets *****, 55:45 Wario. Falco could win that, don't see that being past 6:4 ever though.
Personally I think Pikachu has similar matchups to wario in top tier buch much better matchups in mid and low tier, with a few characters like ROB and Peach giving him trouble. Same goes for Olimar, with a few mid tiers giving him difficult/even matchups. This makes them more "viable" than Wario imo. The characters that have better matchups against Wario are more common, while the characters that counter pikachu either barely do so or arent that common.I think Wario is in the general right place so far. The 3 characters under him all certainly have the potential to be better (IC's for sure), Some of their MU's seem really undecided though. Pika for example, what IS the Pika vs MK MU? Does he beat Snake? How hard is his MU with IC's? Does he go evenish with Diddy or does Diddy win? What about Marth? Or Oli, how does he really do vs MK or Diddy or Falco or etc? Those seem much harder to "pin down" than general **** like Wario vs Diddy is 55:45 or yeah Wario sucks vs Marth.
Imo Pikachu isn't THAT underrated. But his chaingrabs and runnaway game is comparable to Falco. He's also almost unpressurable and ungimpable.I could see Olimar above Wario. I think Pika is the short end of the top tier stick. His range being comparable to Wario's does not fare him well when it comes to gay spacing ****, and I think that will tend to keep him from dominating.
I see what you did thereA handful of smart MK players... but the few stupid ones that think characters like Yoshi is 55:45/-1?
Can't Stingers. But we shall see each other in the fall for sure buddy .i feel like MMing seagull too but i wont
u coming to NC for next weekends tourney seagull?
Anytime kind sir. I'll see you at Ktar 6!Tier list got me pump for this game and actually makes wanna focus to win. Feel like money matching seagull and tand taking his money.
I love using Sonic. I think he is still underrated at this point. He may lose to my character, but I still view Sonic as the best worst character. I see Wolf as the worst best character. If that makes any sort of sense.This pretty much. Sonic's been doing plenty of work as well, but it's been overshadowed by Wolf and Fox stuffs, along with mid/high tier cutoffs.
Sonic should be right below the spacies in mid tier, in my opinion. He's shown plenty of potential, and has some beefy results to back it up.
Pretty much. Sonic is better than Peach.
If this was aimed at the Sonic statements, I'd argue that the MU Ratios for him are incorrect to a degree that could potentially shift in Sonic's favor.
He should've been on this list.
I need more Sonic support in the Backroom. Seagull was my only ally.
There's still a pretty hefty anti-Sonic bias back there.
I mean, just look at the match up chart.
Wrong, Zigsta. Look at Sonic's tournament results thread. He's done just as well as Peach has been doing all season. The MLG Dallas event is like the first scoop in a bowl of ice cream. It's a foundation that I feel gives Sonic an edge to...what, Peach's WHOBO performance?
Hell, aside from Illmatic placing a single placing above the highest placing Sonic at WHOBO3, the two characters placed in generally the same areas. Not to mention if you take a gander at both character's results since January, they've essentially placed in the same areas. Constantly.
You can't say that Sonic hasn't done much, because you'd be completely wrong.
And yes, PLENTY of players still think "lolSonic". The fact that MLG Dallas was such a big deal is a testament to that bias. That isn't to say that what happened should've been expected, but it also shouldn't have been such a huge surprise either. Sonic is reasonably viable outside of a single character match up or two.
Story. Of. Sonic's. Entire. Metagame.
I'm pretty confident that I can take you down to one stock.
Come to Texas!! <3
...what?
Some of the best minds and some of the highest leveled players in the American Brawl meta game discussed this list.
Just the idea of a "random" being in the backroom just sounds silly.
See my post for Zigsta.
If Sonic's results have been nonexistent, then so have Peach's.
This legitimately made me laugh.
And it's not over. He needs to be where he belongs.
Again, it was definitely a huge contribution, but it's also his consistently decent results (at least in comparison to his other mid tier brethren, especially Peach) that support a rise for the character.
I think the only two characters in mid tier who unarguably outdo him results-wise are Fox and Wolf, actually.
I need more Sonic support in the Backroom. Seagull was my only ally.
There's still a pretty hefty anti-Sonic bias back there.
I mean, just look at the match up chart.
Eh, disagree a bit. I think Snake is more evenish, maybe 5 points Wario's favor. MK Peach definitly have the 6:4, MK's probably worse but god knows no one is actually gonna label it as anything harder. Shiek... idk. Light doesn't like that MU. I think it's 5:5. Falco is interesting. I think that's 5:5 as well. It's hard to tell because no body really plays the Wario vs Falco MU in tournament anymore. I think the CG on Falco stops him from having a soft counter, cause that MU would definitely suck if Wario could not guarantee damage like that on him. I could see Falco having a small edge regardless.I think ICs being better than Wario is a given.
I think we probably disagree on Warios matchup ratios. I think MK, Snake, Peach, Sheik, Falco, and Dedede all beat Wario 6/4ish. Then like 20 or so characters have matchups between 55-45 and 45-55 matchups. Personally I think Olimar and Pikachu have slightly better matchup spreads. Imo
Personally I think Pikachu has similar matchups to wario in top tier buch much better matchups in mid and low tier, with a few characters like ROB and Peach giving him trouble. Same goes for Olimar, with a few mid tiers giving him difficult/even matchups. This makes them more "viable" than Wario imo. The characters that have better matchups against Wario are more common, while the characters that counter pikachu either barely do so or arent that common.
Imo Pikachu isn't THAT underrated. But his chaingrabs and runnaway game is comparable to Falco. He's also almost unpressurable and ungimpable.
I see what you did there
His fsmash is one of his few quick moves compared to most other chars frame data. It just so happens that his fsmash gets clanked by almost every jab in the game. First hit utilt is also surprisingly fast but the hitbox is too small to matter....His attacks are pretty fast. Heck fastest Fsmash in the game of some nonsense *shrugs*
Also...yoshi's too high
I can't now. Took off too many Saturdays (CoT5 and the local before CoT5 and last weekend).WTFFFFFF Joe you said you were coming. =[
And Link is better than Falcon.
A cursed shame. I wanted to show you the power of Pokémon Trainer.I can't now. Took off too many Saturdays (CoT5 and the local before CoT5 and last weekend).
Character Avg Mode Median Std Dev Min Max
Meta Knight 1 1 1 0 1 1
Diddy Kong 2.25 2 2 0.433 2 3
Snake 3.19 3 3 1.025 2 6
Falco 4.07 4 4 0.752 2 7
Marth 5.80 5 6 1.736 3 10
Wario 6.55 6 6 1.425 3 10
Ice Climbers 7.08 7 7 1.526 5 10
Captain Olimar 7.48 8 8 1.017 5 9
Pikachu 7.66 9 8 1.538 3 10
King Dedede 10.78 10 10.5 1.097 8 13
Lucario 10.94 10,11 11 0.914 9 13
Zero Suit Samus 11.92 12,13 12 0.979 9 13
Mr.Game & Watch 12.23 13 13 0.963 10 13
Character Avg Mode Median Std Dev Min Max
Toon Link 14.78 14 14 1.410 14 21
Fox 15.64 15 15 1.528 14 20
Wolf 17.60 16 17 2.820 14 25
Peach 17.73 16 17 1.875 15 23
Donkey Kong 18.94 18 19 2.090 15 26
Kirby 19.26 21 19 2.279 15 23
R.O.B. 19.32 20 19 3.145 15 28
Pit 19.91 20 20 2.316 15 25
Sonic 20.75 18,22 21 2.301 17 24
Ike 23.05 23 23 1.597 18 27
Luigi 24.07 24 23 1.781 20 28
Sheik / Zelda 24.37 25 25 2.100 18 27
Sheik 26.00 26 26 1.658 19 28
Ness 26.10 27 26 1.175 23 28
Pokémon Trainer 27.42 28 28 1.251 22 28
Character Avg Mode Median Std Dev Min Max
Yoshi 29.05 29 29 0.293 29 31
Lucas 30.41 30 30 0.921 29 35
Mario 31.19 31 31 1.108 30 36
Bowser 32.69 32 32 1.602 30 37
Samus 33.37 33 33 1.494 31 38
Captain Falcon 33.92 34 34 1.207 32 37
Link 35.30 35 35 1.534 31 38
Jigglypuff 35.66 36 36 1.479 32 38
Zelda 35.73 37 36 1.797 30 38
Ganondorf 37.64 38 38 0.874 34 38