Official BBR Tier List v6

[Shaya]

We decided without an official 'vote' so to speak where to split high tier from middle.

Toon Link and G&W were bundled very close together after stage 2. We felt G&W was still worthy of being in the high tier selection.

Stage 2 had a reasonably big gap between TL and Fox. Hence we split them from there.

Remember that when we vote for orders, we aren't voting for tier separations. Hence a lot of the time after voting was dedicated to discussing what the tier separations were.
There was a numbers gap between Falco and Marth, but people voted 1-4 pretty consistently. Marth is 5th, is he in the same tier as falco?

 

[Ghostbone]

TOs please start holding low tier tourneys.

Naa Top tier tourneys are where it's at.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Eh, your methods for division need a lot of work. Ideally they should be as close to stage 1 voting lines as possible. I'm not sure why you would try to divide them further.

Basically anyone less than a point apart should be in the same tier. If the tiers are too small or there are too many tiers, you vote every TIER into either the above tier or the tier below. If they are voted into the above tier, then any smaller tiers below should get the same vote. If they are voted into the tier below, then they have formed a larger tier and do not need an additional vote. For example, say you opted to vote TL and Fox "down:"

Toon Link
Fox
Wolf
Peach

Four characters is sufficient for a tier and thus you don't really need to vote anymore. But if you had voted Toon Link and Fox "up:"

Lucario
King Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Mr. Game and Watch
Toon Link
Fox

then Wolf and Peach, who are now a part of their own smaller tier, should either be voted into the above tier or the tier below.

Doing stage 2 the way it was done doesn't really make sense because the vote has already been done. You're essentially "requalifying" characters that were already voted upon, to which other characters don't really have to be "subjected." Diddy and Snake are close enough that they are in the same tier. TL and Fox are the same distance or closer, but are separated because stage 2 separated them... why?

No voting system is perfect but this one seems entirely suboptimal. After stage 1, you should have simply worked with the numbers you had.

 

[Shaya]

My stage 2 was initially different and more restrictive/connected to stage 1 (so it was more like 'okay toon link goes above which characters from before'). If my original stage 2 remained, Dedede would not have dropped below Lucario.

Inefficient is just an opinion =).

Fox not being high was justified after stage 2. People verbally stated they did not think Fox was high tier.

 

[Ghostbone]

Eh, your methods for division need a lot of work. Ideally they should be as close to stage 1 voting lines as possible. I'm not sure why you would try to divide them further.

Basically anyone less than a point apart should be in the same tier. If the tiers are too small or there are too many tiers, you vote every character in a certain tier into either the above tier or the tier below. If they are voted into the above tier, then any smaller tiers below should get the same vote. If they are voted into the tier below, then they have formed a larger tier and do not need an additional vote. For example, say you opted to vote TL and Fox "down:"

Toon Link
Fox
Wolf
Peach

Four characters is sufficient for a tier and thus you don't really need to vote anymore. But if you had voted Toon Link and Fox "up:"

Lucario
King Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Mr. Game and Watch
Toon Link
Fox

then Wolf and Peach, who are now a part of their own smaller tier, should either be voted into the above tier or the tier below.

Doing stage 2 the way it was done doesn't really make sense because the vote has already been done. You're essentially "requalifying" characters that were already voted upon, to which other characters don't really have to be "subjected."

No voting system is perfect but this one seems entirely suboptimal. After stage 1, you should have simply worked with the numbers you had.

Except their numerical placings don't necessarily reflect tier postions?
Just because a character is close to another in purely numerical rankings doesn't mean they're of similar ability.
e.g. Diddy's pretty close to MK numerically but the gap between S and A tier is probably the largest gap between any of the tiers.

A vote specifically on tiers makes perfect sense.

 

[Espy Rose]

Browny, that post was legendary.
At least we know that Sonic's gonna be moving up next tier list.

 

[Shaya]

Voting only on orders resulted in the whole 'how do we split characters, UGHHH' situation. Which took up A LOT OF TIME. AND I MEAN A LOT.

Maybe next time I'll do something like

"vote characters 1-X, place up to Y borders which you believe indicate tier separation".

so while we have everyone nearly having the same characters in the groups 1-4, that doesn't necessarily mean they think their 5th is 'noticeably' worse than their 4th.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's nonsense. If Fox wasn't high tier, Toon Link wasn't high tier either. If this wasn't the case, there would have been a much larger break. Why even have a voting and averaging method to begin with?

There was a very distinct pattern which showed a 1 point or more break at tier divides, with the point division growing as the tier list went lower. Meta Knight and Diddy Kong were not close (more than 2 points apart), which is the only exception. These gaps should have been respected.

Next time, any character that is in a "small" tier should be voted as a whole with the rest of said tier (say two characters or smaller, as three characters is a perfectly acceptable size for a tier) because the distance between those characters was clearly decided when the voting was averaged.

 

[Shaya]

It's nonsense in your opinion because you think Fox deserves high tier.

People who voted Fox high during stage 1 stated they didn't believe Fox was high tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Err, that isn't the point, I don't really have an agenda. I also think Peach is like Ike tier.

I'm trying to point out that your verbal discussions unfairly penalized Fox for being Fox (or boosted Toon Link for being Toon Link, but likely the former) and no other character was penalized this way. In almost every other case, the 1+ point gaps in votes were respected, but Fox was stuffed into a tier with characters 2 points lower than him. Meta Knight for example is part of his own tier even though the difference between him and Diddy vote-wise is nearly the same as the difference between say, Fox and Wolf (.26 or something, a quarter of a point).

If people who voted Fox high during stage 1 didn't want Fox to be high tier, then Toon Link shouldn't have been high tier either. But he is, because of a verbal bias that was expressed after the voting was complete, which is frankly, not very smart.

 

[Ghostbone]

Err, that isn't the point, I don't really have an agenda. I also think Peach is like Ike tier.

I'm trying to point out that your verbal discussions unfairly penalized Fox for being Fox (or boosted Toon Link for being Toon Link, but likely the former) and no other character was penalized this way. In almost every other case, the 1+ point gaps in votes were respected, but Fox was stuffed into a tier with characters 2 points lower than him. Meta Knight for example is part of his own tier even though the difference between him and Diddy vote-wise is nearly the same as the difference between say, Fox and Wolf (.26 or something, a quarter of a point).

Again, numerical placings =! ability of characters relative to each other.

The difference between the average of certain characters doesn't necessarily say anything, besides who's considered higher.

 

[_Kain_]

Err, that isn't the point, I don't really have an agenda. I also think Peach is like Ike tier.

I'm trying to point out that your verbal discussions unfairly penalized Fox for being Fox (or boosted Toon Link for being Toon Link, but likely the former) and no other character was penalized this way. In almost every other case, the 1+ point gaps in votes were respected, but Fox was stuffed into a tier with characters 2 points lower than him. Meta Knight for example is part of his own tier even though the difference between him and Diddy vote-wise is nearly the same as the difference between say, Fox and Wolf (.26 or something, a quarter of a point).

Why are you so focused on points? That has nothing to do with them deciding how tiers were gonna group up but mostly where the chars were going to be placed? Not that hard to figure out

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why are you so focused on points? That has nothing to do with them deciding how tiers were gonna group up but mostly where the chars were going to be placed? Not that hard to figure out

Because the points do that job for them, extremely accurately because the opinions of the voting constituants were already tallied. Averaging votes is extremely effective at doing exactly what they aimed to do; the evidence is here, the job was done before they did it, except for Fox, who apparently isn't as good as he was voted. That doesn't make sense.

Including a stage in this process that verbally "checks" their votes for "accuracy" undermines the entire process of voting in the first place. If 2-character tiers are deemed too small, there are effective ways to address that problem that don't involve the obvious fallacies of "verbal discussion" and I have outlined them above.

 

[Ghostbone]

Because the points do that job for them, extremely accurately because the opinions of the voting constituants were already tallied. Averaging votes is extremely effective at doing exactly what they aimed to do; the evidence is here, the job was done before they did it, except for Fox, who apparently isn't as good as he was voted. That doesn't make sense.

They're accurate at showing the positions of characters relative to each other, not where the tier gaps could be.

You realise that tiers are supposed to group characters of similar ability to each other together right? You seem to think the difference in the average between characters shows where the tier gaps should be, when it doesn't.

Basically an example is that the gap between the average of Diddy and Falco is higher than the gap between Falco and Marth, but Falco is closer to Diddy than Marth in ability.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wait, what? The tier list voting process is supposed to measure character ability. Why do so many Smashboards posters think it's OK to manipulate statistics, averages, and voting after the fact to produce "more accurate" results? I had the same argument with people in my seeding thread, wherein everyone thought it was OK to determine the results of a tournament before it started so that players got the results they "deserve." Why are we holding a tournament in the first place? Why does the BBR vote on characters in the first place if we're just going to put them where we want later?

Voting does place the characters into tiers. Just because you say it doesn't, doesn't mean it doesn't.

 

[Ghostbone]

Wait, what? The tier list voting process is supposed to measure character ability. Why do so many Smashboards posters think it's OK to manipulate statistics, averages, and voting after the fact to produce "more accurate" results? I had the same argument with people in my seeding thread, wherein everyone thought it was OK to determine the results of a tournament before it started so that players got the results they "deserve." Why are we holding a tournament in the first place? Why does the BBR vote on characters in the first place if we're just going to put them where we want later?

Voting does place the characters into tiers. Just because you say it doesn't, doesn't mean it doesn't.

Just because you say they do doesn't mean they do either.

At least I gave an example of why they don't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Just because you say they do doesn't mean they do either.

At least I gave an example of why they don't.

What? I have given like a dozen reasons why it does, and you haven't said anything except "that's what the method we're using says, so eat it." Voting produces very clear-cut tiers that show a real pattern of separation as the tier list goes south.

I don't see why you don't understand this. "We voted, but we didn't like the tier gap results so we changed them."

 

[Ghostbone]

What? I have given like a dozen reasons why it does, and you haven't said anything except "that's what the method we're using says, so eat it." Voting produces very clear-cut tiers that show a real pattern of separation as the tier list goes south.

I don't see why you don't understand this. "We voted, but we didn't like the results so we changed them."

What?

Do you not understand, that the difference between tier X and Y means more than just there was a large gap between the bottom character of tier X and the top character of tier Y? It means the difference in ability of any two characters in tier X is less than the difference in ability between a character from X and a character from Y.

The way you're measuring it makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How do you suggest it be measured? Verbal discussion?

I'm not sure how you aren't understanding that the tier list the BBR created actually showed very similar tier gaps to the "real" tier gaps created by vote averages, because in large part, the tier gaps they "verbally created" match the voting process. This is not only expected, but almost a sure thing, because the voting already summed up their feelings about the tier list before they started discussing it. The tier list voting process is the summation of their thoughts and opinions, it isn't like they are expressed afterwards and the voting part is just a formality.

The fact that Fox and only Fox ended up in a tier with characters 2 points lower than him says that after the voting process a bunch of people stopped paying attention and the remaining people probably didn't like how Fox placed during the voting process. I can't be sure that's how the discussion worked but if you ask anyone after looking at these numbers that's what they'd say.

Imagine if the votes looked like this:

MK 1

Diddy 5
Snake 6
Falco 7

Marth 10

And the actual tier list looked like this:

MK
Diddy
Snake

Falco
Marth

That would be weird, right? Right.

 

[Kantrip]

Wrong. The votes are an average of opinions on which spot each character should take. It could have been unanimous that mk was 1 and diddy was 2, but that in no way means everyone thinks the two characters should be in the same tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOL this argument is not worth having, you're all dumb, bye.

 

[Ghostbone]

How do you suggest it be measured? Verbal discussion?

I'm not sure how you aren't understanding that the tier list the BBR created actually showed very similar tier gaps to the "real" tier gaps created by vote averages, because in large part, the tier gaps they "verbally created" match the voting process. This is not only expected, but almost a sure thing, because the voting already summed up their feelings about the tier list before they started discussing it. The tier list voting process is the summation of their thoughts and opinions, it isn't like they are expressed afterwards and the voting part is just a formality.

The fact that Fox and only Fox ended up in a tier with characters 2 points lower than him says that after the voting process a bunch of people stopped paying attention and the remaining people probably didn't like how Fox placed during the voting process. I can't be sure that's how the discussion worked but if you ask anyone after looking at these numbers that's what they'd say.

Yes, it should be made through verbal discussion, and people should vote on where they think the tier gaps should be, after they voted for the numerical placings.

Again, voting for numerical placings =! voting for the tier gaps.
I doubt they didn't like where fox placed during the voting process, most people just probably agreed he was only 1 place below TL. 1 place below doesn't necessarily mean the character is of similar ability, it just means that he's 1 place below.

So after they decide what position Fox is in compared to other characters (during the numerical votings), they decide which characters he is closest in ability to.

Basically, according to you the numerical placings represent the differences in character ability, but if that is completely true then the whole point of tiers is nullified and we should just have a list of 1st to last.

LOL this argument is not worth having, you're all dumb, bye.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 20 (12 members and 8 guests)
ghostbone, Supermodel From Paris, CrimsonFeint, _Kain_, Kitamerby, Draver, Pi-Nerd, Gallick, Vicious Sal, RoanYagyu, Shaya

lol, trying to look like you don't care....

 

[_Kain_]

LOL this argument is not worth having, you're all dumb, bye.

But your the one that's dumb? Your making the way the voting process went way more complex and difficult then it really is, putting emphasis on numbers over how characters should be grouped up.

LOL at calling people dumb yet being the only one that can't see how simple the process is

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But your the one that's dumb? Your making the way the voting process went way more complex and difficult then it really is, putting emphasis on numbers over how characters should be grouped up.

LOL at calling people dumb yet being the only one that can't see how simple the process is

I understand what the process is, you maroon, I just realize how the process is heavily flawed while most of the mouth-breathers in this thread don't!

I don't think the difference between votes is a hard and fast measurement of character ability. Diddy Kong is not like .8 points better than Snake or whatever, but the tier list is a measurement of votes. If it isn't, why vote? If it's better to create a list with discussion, the whole thing should be created with discussion. Creating a list with half votes and half discussion makes the entire voting process worthless, ya dig?

A difference in the average number of votes that is nearly or more than double the previous character on the list suggests a voting trend (there's a better word for this but I can't remember it right now, Crow! help me ;]), a voting trend suggests (and in a huge percentage of cases there exists) a tier gap. Just because you chose to ignore the numbers doesn't indicate that they lose their meaning, I'm not sure how else to explain this. If you don't think voting is a good way to decide the tier gaps between characters, then why do you think it's a good way to decide the smaller ones? If Fox isn't 2 poins better than Wolf, why is he better than Wolf at all?

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah if we used his method then when (if) we reach a perfect tier list where everyone agrees on placings every character will be in the same tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah if we used his method then when (if) we reach a perfect tier list where everyone agrees on placings every character will be in the same tier.

If everyone agreed there would be no need for this thread.

 

[Kantrip]

And here I was thinking the tier list was here to show the concensus on the placement of characters ranked from top to bottom based on performance and viability in high-end tournament play.





Silly me.

If the voting for placement went as follows, how would you seperate the tiers?

Meta Knight - 1
Diddy Kong - 2
Snake - 3
Falco - 4
Marth - 5
...
etc.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And here I was thinking the tier list was here to show the concensus on the placement of characters ranked from top to bottom based on performance and viability in high-end tournament play.





Silly me.

If the voting for placement went as follows, how would you seperate the tiers?

Meta Knight - 1
Diddy Kong - 2
Snake - 3
Falco - 4
Marth - 5
...
etc.

In this case you either simply don't separate them as there are no "tier gaps." You know, it's OK for there to not be tier gaps. The universe wouldn't suddenly collapse if there wasn't, especially if according to the vote tallies, there are no actual "gaps."

What you're suggesting is that voting is a bad system for determining tier list order, not that modifying a vote that does show gaps afterwards is a good thing.

But more importantly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[_Kain_]

Crimson your wasting your time lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Crimson your wasting your time lol

Funny, that's how I feel right now.

 

[_Kain_]

Funny, that's how I feel right now.

You should, because you think pretty dumb in relation to how the process worked

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I know how the process worked, it's just a bad process.

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah I don't think he's going to understand. I really must get some sleep, so I'll try to say this one more time: Discrepencies in BBR member voting =! Discrepencies in character ability.

I'm not sure how else I can say it. If the voting for Meta Knight were unanimously 1st, Diddy was unanimously 2nd, and Snake was unanimously 3rd, it does not mean the three characters are equally spaced out as far as their abilities go. On a scale, their power could look like:

10--------9---------8---------7---------6---------5---------4--------3---------2---------1

This wouldn't change the fact that they were voted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. The tier gap, however, should be after metaknight because there is a large gap in skill from him to diddy and snake.

 

[Shaya]

The tier gap, however, should be after metaknight because there is a large gap in skill from him to diddy and snake.

This was decided in a vote during tier list 4.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah I don't think he's going to understand. I really must get some sleep, so I'll try to say this one more time: Discrepencies in BBR member voting =! Discrepencies in character ability.

This is wrong, or the vote tallies wouldn't actually say anything. If you're going to decide where characters are ranked despite the vote, why vote? So you can claim there was some amount of science in the process when there wasn't?

The voting says exactly how good each character is, or voting is worthless.

 

[_Kain_]

This is wrong, or the vote tallies wouldn't actually say anything. If you're going to decide where characters are ranked despite the vote, why vote? So you can claim there was some amount of science in the process when there wasn't?

The voting says exactly how good each character is, or voting is worthless.

This ***** is trolling omg

Thank god you at least aren't in BBR

 

[Kantrip]

The voting is what is used to determine the ORDER of all characters, and how they can be ranked from 1st to last. Nowhere in the vote is somewhere for people to say BY HOW MUCH a character is better than the next. Only a discussion afterwards can reach an agreement on that.

Good night, folks.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ig1pd/an_nonsupernatural_example_of_religious_and/

This is how I feel right now jesus ****ing christ

Did anyone else here have a wall clock in their house with roman numerals as a kid? I did and it resulted in one of the most powerful lessons I ever encountered about the pursuit of knowledge.
It didn't take long to figure out that the numbers corresponded to 1-12 just like they did on a regular clock. Knowing that regular numbers go past twelve, at about 7 or 8 I started working out how roman numbers would do that. It made total sense that if XII was 12, then XIII was 13, XIV was 14 and so on.
I went from 13 to 39 before I hit a snag. I know in roman numbers 40 would be X? with ? being the symbol for fifty, but I didn't know what the roman numeral for 50 was. So I asked my mom what was the roman number for fifty and she asked why I wanted to know. When I told that I had started figuring out how the roman numbers on the clock worked and how to go past twelve she stopped me and pointed out "the clock doesn't go past twelve." I understood that, but I pointed out that the roman number system had to have gone past twelve and I'd figured out how it did, but I couldn't get to 40 because I didn't understand what 50 was. My mom kept insisting, to the point of screaming "THE CLOCK DOESN'T GO PAST TWELVE. ONCE YOU GET TO TWELVE IT GOES BACK TO 1 O'CLOCK!".

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sfp gettin **** on by kain and crimson. gotta say reading this argument is funny and yall are keeping me from being bored.

keep up the quality entertainment guys! if it were a show it would be called "2 Brains, Won chroll"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not really getting **** in since they're not correct but ok