Conviction
Human Nature
...DAMN IT! When I saw Mystic post I was hoping for a blazing wall of Pit text.
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Official BBR Tier List v6
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
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Regarding Wario I think outside of high tier his "difficult" match-ups are G&W, Ike, Sheik as 0 and Kirby, Yoshi, Mario, Falcon, Zelda and Ganon as +1 [I have Fox as high tier and GW as mid].
I'd like to officially question Ganon's spot as worst character in the game. I don't know anything about his match-up against Jiggs [perhaps san can enlighten us there] but I think he's even with Falcon and Luigi and his match-ups against Bowser, Mario, Ness, Ike, Sonic, DK and Wario all don't look worse than -1 to me. Diddy Kong, Wolf, Kirby, Link and possibly Lucario also don't look like inevitably unwinnable match-ups for Ganondorf but more like -2 disadvantages. I don't think Falcon is a better choice in any of these match-ups and I wouldn't be surprised if he's worse against Diddy, Wolf, Kirby, Mario, Ike and DK.
I'd like to officially question Ganon's spot as worst character in the game. I don't know anything about his match-up against Jiggs [perhaps san can enlighten us there] but I think he's even with Falcon and Luigi and his match-ups against Bowser, Mario, Ness, Ike, Sonic, DK and Wario all don't look worse than -1 to me. Diddy Kong, Wolf, Kirby, Link and possibly Lucario also don't look like inevitably unwinnable match-ups for Ganondorf but more like -2 disadvantages. I don't think Falcon is a better choice in any of these match-ups and I wouldn't be surprised if he's worse against Diddy, Wolf, Kirby, Mario, Ike and DK.
NAKAT
Smash Champion
Poor Luigi.
Wario has a 0-to-70% chaingrab on Falcon and a 0-to-90% chaingrab on Ganondorf. I imagine it would affect the matchup a good deal if it ever happened.
I like how Yoshi had (aside from MK) by far the smallest standard deviation, and yet he was put above PT in step 2. I think every Yoshi main thinks that he should be a couple (if not a few) places even higher, but as long as he's in mid-tier where he belongs, it's fine I guess.
Also, who voted Snake as 6th? =b
Also, who voted Snake as 6th? =b
Conviction
Human Nature
I might have look at these, because after reading above comment "Snake as sixth" it might be entertaining.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
well iblis if you want i could do a blazing wall about how they should've waited until after genesis to release this list because not waiting just a little longer to see those results quite possibly ruined the chance for pit to go higher until next tier list (which i hope they release right after apex). but tbh there isn't enough pit rep to warrent giving him anything more than a strictly character attribut rating. i mean lets face it, koolaid got the first and only top 10 placing with pit this year, and idk if he has even been playing after that tourney as we ain't heard from him. im still struggling to get better, and esca is in terrible location. luckay does ok, but that ain't koolaid, and as for kiraflax, well tbh his results are always just overlooked in these things.
so tldr: no results=only character attribute rating=unfortunately low but also proper placement. i mean how can you vote for something with no data? you can't, and until there is noticable data, pit will always be overlooked because there is nothing else you can do with him, there just isn't anything that can be done at this point.
now onto a totally differant topic, why can't they update the tier list on a single character basis? i mean think about this for a minute, if one character starts to make a rise in tournaments (for example ill use luigi). say all of a sudden luigi mains start taking top 10 at a lot of tournaments in a row. and that this streak goes on for 4 months, while other character's placements are still reletively the same. why not just update luigi specifically on the tier list and make him higher? why not have an actively single per character status update when it is warrented instead of trying to compile every character's data once a year and have it take forever to release, just have a living tier that is always current to the relative data? that way, it would be kinda like a competition to see which mains can raise there character higher up the list as a whole.
does anyone else think this could be a good idea?
so tldr: no results=only character attribute rating=unfortunately low but also proper placement. i mean how can you vote for something with no data? you can't, and until there is noticable data, pit will always be overlooked because there is nothing else you can do with him, there just isn't anything that can be done at this point.
now onto a totally differant topic, why can't they update the tier list on a single character basis? i mean think about this for a minute, if one character starts to make a rise in tournaments (for example ill use luigi). say all of a sudden luigi mains start taking top 10 at a lot of tournaments in a row. and that this streak goes on for 4 months, while other character's placements are still reletively the same. why not just update luigi specifically on the tier list and make him higher? why not have an actively single per character status update when it is warrented instead of trying to compile every character's data once a year and have it take forever to release, just have a living tier that is always current to the relative data? that way, it would be kinda like a competition to see which mains can raise there character higher up the list as a whole.
does anyone else think this could be a good idea?
In this example, Luigi's results wouldn't be the only thing to take note of. If we noticed that Luigi straight-up massacred, say, Ice Climbers, within these results, perhaps Ice Climbers would deserve a drop for having a new and significant bad matchup. Have fewer people been playing Snake in favor of using Luigi? Also, how far up do we think Luigi should move? Which characters managed to keep Luigi in check?
There's an awful lot to go into, even if it only seems like "one character has proven his/her worth." Also, the tier list is only supposed to be a general guideline; we don't need it to update once a month, as it's highly doubtful that any significant change will be made in such a time period.
I would be in favor of a seasonal change, though, or something similar.
Doc King
Smash Lord
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It would affect the matchup. However, Wario against Falcon, it would look kind of risky to try to chain grab falcon (Ganon I'm not sure). Doing chain grab in the beginning of the match will be better for Wario, but later on in the game, it can lead to a kill to Wario is he screws up and gets kneed by Falcon.
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
I can't believe I read through this whole thing, but it's good to see player's opinions, and at least the tier list is getting better. Even though Lucario has been putting in work, I don't think he is better than DDD. I still think Fox/Wolf should be @ least above ZSS, but really @ the top of high instead of in mid tier. They both have very good options/KO power/survivability, and they have been putting in more work in tournaments recently. I don't think Pikachu should be in God tier. The problem with him is that he's been up high on the tier list so long that it takes longer for people's views to change if they are higher(I.E. Snake) compared to lower(I.E. Sonic). He more than likely should be below DDD, and near ZSS.
Idk why Kirby and Donkey Kong are over Rob and Pit. I 'm guessing because Rob/Pit haven't pulled in some good results collectively recently? Anyways, yes they are lower for now, but they are definitely better than Kirby/DK.
Idk why Kirby and Donkey Kong are over Rob and Pit. I 'm guessing because Rob/Pit haven't pulled in some good results collectively recently? Anyways, yes they are lower for now, but they are definitely better than Kirby/DK.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Zigsta I really gotta disagree on getting outclassed by ALL the characters above him. I will admit if there is anything to hold PT back it will be lack of rep, but you cannot sit here and tell me he gets outclassed by that mid-tier portion he is the bottom of.How is Wario-Ganon/Link/Zelda even?
Ice, PT has no rep and gets outclassed by the characters above him.
We could run through this whole thing but just F tier alone holds no major flawed matchups
Ness: We have the advantage in the matchup
Luigi: We have the advantage
Yoshi: The grab release changes the matchup but I still think this could very well be even....if not in our favor
Ike: I've never seen this as a disadvantaged matchup.
I dont feel like going into a whole arguement here but Luis please jump in and inform me why outside of rep and attendence that PT can't move up. I feel like no one really knows the matchup and outside of a few bad high tier matchups (MK, Marth, and Diddy), but the matchups are really incorrect and oudated for PT.
Well, Wario would get three opportunities to rack up what would be the equivalent of two-to-four grab -> F-Air combos (or three-to-four grab release combos as Ganon). Falcon's grab range isn't very good (and Ganon's is horrible), whereas Wario's is definitely above average, though it's not particularly difficult for Falcon to get a grab.
I'd say that Wario's chaingrab definitely affects the matchup more than the grab-release stuff, especially since Wario's air speed allows him to harass with a weak F-Air and airdodge silliness.
I think Zigsta meant that the characters immediately above PT generally do better in high tier matchups, rather than individual matchups against other mid tiers. That said, I don't think those characters fare much better, but as PT has very few results, it's hard to make that viewpoint seem valid.
That said, I believe Pokémon Trainer is still a better character than his tier placement would suggest (not necessarily by a lot, but, still). He has very little rep, and most of the people who discuss the character don't have a great understanding of him. For example, during the matchup chart stuff, all the Snake players were adamant about that fact that they had a +2 (or even +3!)...except for Ally, who voted for +1.
Oh, wait--He's not a Snake player.
Yoshi/PT is a weird match-up. It can be even if the Yoshi has a playstyle that he's comfortable using, but if he can change it up (play aggressively against Squirtle, defensively/campy against Ivysaur, and passive aggressive against Charizard), then it seems in Yoshi's favor from my experience. Yoshi goes even/beats every character in mid-tier (except for Wolf and maybe Peach).
I really can't think of anything DDD has done recently to merit not being below Lucario. At the very least, Lucario has been putting in at least some results and doesn't get punched in the face by most of top tier. Fact is, Lucario can definitely hold his own better against the likes of the higher tiers than DDD can, and this has been a trend since people figured out how to deal with D3's 08 bull****.
ZSS is weird because no one really places her. The ZSS/Pika/Oli/ area is odd because they all share that feature, there isn't a ****ton of people playing as them, especially in Pika and ZSS's case. Nick Riddle for ZSS and Esam for Pika, but past that, how many others can you name?
However, they are both undeniably solid characters. Certainly not high A tier characters, but they are up there, and I'd be willing to say that Pika could still go higher. Pika is truly a really solid character, but the rep and potential usage just isn't there. And to go back to ZSS, to say Fox and Wolf should be that high after the bumps they've both been given these past two tier list updates is somewhat ridiculous. I don't think neither of them are there yet, but it's possible. But that high now? No way.
As for Pit/ROB vs DK/Kirby, I have to say DK is a better character than all three of those others and should not be paired with Kirby. It's unfortunate, but Kirby really just isn't good in this metagame, as much as I hate to say it. I've pretty much dropped Kirby altogether and don't have any plans of picking Kirby back up in the future. There just isn't a point to it, unless I turn around and start loving the fact of getting shut down by nearly everyone that matters in tournament.
And that's the problem with Pit/ROB, by the way. Neither of them really matter in tournament. Unless you're in PA or you're getting trolled by Allied or Vinnie, when are you ever worried about facing a ROB? And Pit, I don't think I've ever been in tournament and thought to myself, "omg what if I face a Pit." The only Pit I can think of in the US is...Koolaid, and he isn't the biggest name in Smash, despite being a solid player.
It's just that the lot of them aren't necessarily "threats". Pikachu is a threat, Olimar is a thread, ZSS is (mostly) a threat. Pit, ROB and Kirby are not.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
He's not in God tier, only MK is. If you meant top tier, I think he's fine where he is. Pikachu seems quite a bit better than everyone in C-tier, I'm sure many would agree. Pikachu is awesome.
A very good tier list, I think. A few character switches here and there, but I'm very happy with this one.
Sonic immediately above/below DK.
Rob above Kirby.
Yoshi immediately above/below Sheilda.
And move Dedede to H-tier. He sucks.
But seriously, he's NOT high-tier.
All of that is just my bias, but I don't really care about any of those changes, except the last one.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Luis I think your dead on but of course all the snake players were adamant and the sad part is none of them outside of Ally know the matchup. Plain and simple people who vote on PT's matchup's just call us free and have no evidence or proof to back up their statements. When Ally said it was +1 snake he knew what he was talking about.
And to prove a point cmon guys raise your hand if you actually know the PT matchup because it's gonna be real sad when I see 5 hands out of 100 raise and these are the people so how telling us PT has bad matchups :/......Thank you for the back up luis
Also as far as PT v. yoshi goes I would say its around even with level bias, like I said the grab releases suck but if we play back yoshi has a rough time trying to get in.
Conviction
Human Nature
Uhhh when did Yoshi beat/even with Fox?
I claim Fox/Yoshi is 55:45 if not even, but among the Yoshis, that's split as "omg this is a hard as **** match-up" and "eh, I can deal with Fox." From my experience, it's pretty even (I've never lost to a Fox in tournament except for Zeton, but Zeton's just overall a better player than I am. He didn't do anything that completely shut Yoshi down, he just outplayed me. He beat Tyrant and KPrime at WHobo3, but that doesn't say that Fox beats MK or Pikachu, it just says that he was the better player).
The problem is that there like... aren't any good Yoshis who play good Foxes. All the good Foxes who have played Yoshi haven't played one who knows the MU inside and out and vice versa. Either way though, that's a discussion for another place, not here.
The problem is that there like... aren't any good Yoshis who play good Foxes. All the good Foxes who have played Yoshi haven't played one who knows the MU inside and out and vice versa. Either way though, that's a discussion for another place, not here.
Dr. R.O.Botnik
Smash Journeyman
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Meta Knight is finally God Tier (this didn't need to take 3 years to figure out, folks).
Diddy beating Snake. Huh, never thought I'd see that. Eh, no big deal, it's only one place.
Olimar is finally in the top! Good work, Oli-mains! Oh, and Pikachu, too.
Finally, Toon is out of Mid and where he belongs!
HOLY ****ING ****, WOLF! I mean, holy ****, SIX places, AND two Tiers! That's the second biggest rise in Brawl history (the first was Sonic in the third list, moving 8 places and 3 tiers)! Nice ****ing job, Wolf mains.
Peach, DK, and Fox moved up again, that's good.
WHY, KIRBY, WHYYYYYYYYYYYY!? EDIT: Okay...
Why is the random button in the Mid Tier? It should be in the bottom because you only have a small chance of getting one of the top 5 characters! useless in money tournaments.
R.O.B., not you, too!
I'm calling him "Pitfall" from now on. At this rate, he's gonna be in the Low Tier in the post-Brawl metagame.
Finally, Sonic is slowly returning to his rightful place on the third list. He's actually pretty good at his his full potential. Same with Ike.
Oh, come on. Luigi is fine except for his bad approach (better than Shielda and about as good as Ike IMO).
Again, Ness? Do you ever plan on moving? A slow grab-release animation and bad vertical recovery didn't stop DK. Seriously, He's at least as good as Ike or Sonic. He should totally be at the head of bottom-Mid.
This is as far as Yoshi should go, unless someone finds some super awesome amazing thing with him.
PT's current placement is perfect, but I'd still love to see individual rankings for his Pokemon.
LUCAS, Y U NO MOVE!? I think he can make it at the bottom of Mid.
I love how the Ganon Tier is now the Hyrule Tier like in list four. I used to think that Ganondorf was the worst by far, but only because it was a race between him and Falcon for so long. After looking more closely at Link and Zelda, they aren't that much better than the G-Hog.
Overall, good list, hoping to see the explanation for why Wolf got so high up and why R.O.B. and Luigi took it so hard up the *** (does R.O.B. even have an ***?).
Diddy beating Snake. Huh, never thought I'd see that. Eh, no big deal, it's only one place.
Olimar is finally in the top! Good work, Oli-mains! Oh, and Pikachu, too.
Finally, Toon is out of Mid and where he belongs!
HOLY ****ING ****, WOLF! I mean, holy ****, SIX places, AND two Tiers! That's the second biggest rise in Brawl history (the first was Sonic in the third list, moving 8 places and 3 tiers)! Nice ****ing job, Wolf mains.
Peach, DK, and Fox moved up again, that's good.
WHY, KIRBY, WHYYYYYYYYYYYY!? EDIT: Okay...
Why is the random button in the Mid Tier? It should be in the bottom because you only have a small chance of getting one of the top 5 characters! useless in money tournaments.
R.O.B., not you, too!
I'm calling him "Pitfall" from now on. At this rate, he's gonna be in the Low Tier in the post-Brawl metagame.
Finally, Sonic is slowly returning to his rightful place on the third list. He's actually pretty good at his his full potential. Same with Ike.
Oh, come on. Luigi is fine except for his bad approach (better than Shielda and about as good as Ike IMO).
Again, Ness? Do you ever plan on moving? A slow grab-release animation and bad vertical recovery didn't stop DK. Seriously, He's at least as good as Ike or Sonic. He should totally be at the head of bottom-Mid.
This is as far as Yoshi should go, unless someone finds some super awesome amazing thing with him.
PT's current placement is perfect, but I'd still love to see individual rankings for his Pokemon.
LUCAS, Y U NO MOVE!? I think he can make it at the bottom of Mid.
I love how the Ganon Tier is now the Hyrule Tier like in list four. I used to think that Ganondorf was the worst by far, but only because it was a race between him and Falcon for so long. After looking more closely at Link and Zelda, they aren't that much better than the G-Hog.
Overall, good list, hoping to see the explanation for why Wolf got so high up and why R.O.B. and Luigi took it so hard up the *** (does R.O.B. even have an ***?).
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Kirby is ***.
Wolf is certainly much better than Kirby. Kirby just has absolutely nothing to do except shieldgrab, bair all day, run-and-gun, and hope for the best. Kirby is not too reliable of a character right now. And DK really does outpace Kirby by a lot. Will can tell you so.
T'was a joke on the BBR's part.
Yoshi isn't top mid-tier at all imo, but he really isn't that bad, and guys like Delta-Cod, Raptor, and other Yoshi mains have been showing why. He doesn't have a huge amount of tools like the top tiers do, but he can handle himself quite well. TBH, I think he could definitely see much more of a bump in future lists, but going to the point where Wolf/Fox/Peach is will probably never happen. If it does, that's the farthest he'll ever go.
Someone has obviously never fought a true Yoshi main.
Dr. R.O.Botnik
Smash Journeyman
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I was joking as well.
after seeing a few more recent Yoshi fights, I agree that he's not a useless punching bag like the rest of Low Tier, but he's not really good either. He has the potential of a bottom-Mid, but those match-ups are gonna be a problem. I think that the bottom of Mid is the farthest he should go for now.
A -true- Yoshi main? What does that even mean? :/
Dr. R.O.Botnik
Smash Journeyman
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I think it means someone who mains Yoshi in real tournaments, instead of just using him because he (was) the best in LT tourneys.
I think he means someone who only mains Yoshi.
Or he's referring to Baby Mario because he mained Yoshi in Yoshi's Island.
Or he's referring to Baby Mario because he mained Yoshi in Yoshi's Island.
I mean someone who has played Yoshi since the game came out and knows everything about the character as well as has MU experience. You can be "good" with a character without maining said character, but when you focus solely on that character, then you take 'em to a different level.
If you ONLY play Yoshi, then all those "bad matchups" you're referring to aren't that bad. A lot of people will say, "Oh **** that's a Lucario" and switch to an alternate instead of actually playing it over and over to see what you can and can't do. Theory on the smashboards only goes so far; you need someone who is willing to win and lose against matchups to discover what it truly is.
If you ONLY play Yoshi, then all those "bad matchups" you're referring to aren't that bad. A lot of people will say, "Oh **** that's a Lucario" and switch to an alternate instead of actually playing it over and over to see what you can and can't do. Theory on the smashboards only goes so far; you need someone who is willing to win and lose against matchups to discover what it truly is.
Most characters aren't that difficult to pick up. You don't have to have years of experience under your belt to master a character. All it takes is some dedication, and that doesn't even have to be as a main. The important things are being good with the character and having ample matchup experience.
Also, I think you're wrong about the average player's lack drive to stick with their main and learn how to manage seemingly-bad matchups, and it is especially so for the above-average players.
Dr. R.O.Botnik
Smash Journeyman
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You have a point, but I'm not seeing how only focusing on one character (who was never that good in the first place) is practical.
Yeah, but Yoshi is the weirdest character in the cast. 99% of the time, you'll use your up-B before you jump to recover, you can't jump out of shield, etc... It's hard to pick Yoshi up specifically without dedication.
And I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that IF you have only one character you're playing, then you HAVE to learn ALL your match-ups whether they're good or bad. If you're not willing to put the time in to learn the bad match-ups, then why not just pick MK?
It's probably just preference or they are just comfortable with only that character. For a while I was only comfortable playing Kirby.
However, I agree, it's not very practical, especially when it's easy to supplement yourself with a pocket character, or just a pocket MK, or just start maining MK. I've picked up Pika, but I'm keeping a pocket MK for bad match-ups and just to help me along in tournament. Nothing wrong with that.
Being fundamentally different from the rest of the cast is not the same as being difficult to master.
I do agree with Yoshi being one of the most difficult characters to make the most of, but I'm not sure I would call him the most difficult to make the most of, or even "the weirdest."
Point taken. For me personally, Yoshi just clicks with me. I have played around with alternates, but Yoshi's the only one with whom I can do everything I want to do.
That's fine, and it's totally natural. Certain characters just work better for different players, regardless of how different or bad other people might find them to be.
That said, some players can (and have) mastered multiple characters. I was just saying that the only criteria that must be met for something to be a valid viewpoint on the matchup is good ability with one's own character and ample matchup experience against the opponent's character.
It's like how Ally formed his PT/Snake matchup idea based on playing me.
T-block
B2B TST
a) imo Yoshi beats PT solidly
b) the head to head matchup is not what decides which character should be higher. just because PT beats Ness and Luigi doesn't mean he should be higher than them
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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It's kinda getting mixed feelings for them actually. Some say too high others say it is fine.
Then why did you bring it up?
I never thought the numbers played that much into it when there is a lot of variance and opinions that went around.
Some people put characters in areas that were really far from the norm and such, I think after putting people where they were in stage 1, deciding who is in what tier should have come second. Which is more or less what the BBR did.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Well firstly T you seem to misunderstand my post because the only reason I pointed out those characters were because zigsta said everyone above PT outclasses him. I never said that PT beating Luigi means he should be higher than them, I rather was explaining that in reference to PT's tier alone that he has positive or even matchups with almost everyone in his tier. I did not feel like continuing to go through the tier showing good and bad matchups, but cmon T stop making me seem like I'm doing something Im not.
Also I do not see how yoshi beats PT solidly, I play againt yoshi in tourny a good amount and in no way shape or form is it a shutout at all. He has grab release chains on zard and squirtle that are easier to get around the marth by an enormus margin, thats the only real issue that could used against PT in the matchup
If you're referring to the BBR MU Chart... it's inaccurate for alot of characters, with Yoshi being one of them.
Hell I still believe Yoshi is Even with Wario, Peach, Sheik, Kirby, and possibly D3. While for -1/55:45 MUs that're -2, i'd say only Diddy Kong...
Aren't you the one who dropped PT for Wario like A used *****?
Though I guess you DID create the PT Metagame by yourself...
This, along with his other posts about Yoshi just clicking with him... I've tried other characters in friendlies tons of times. Only other character I could think of is Lucario that was fun to play.
But cause of the basic Yoshi stuff my muscle memory is use to, I never do common stuff like jumping OoS or even Shield/Shieldgrab at all.
Basically the effect of maining Yoshi for awhile, you lose common stuff that's extremely helpful during matches while using other characters.
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